non-Catholic Christians - "Did You Know"?

[Mickey]

Purgatory burns away that spiritual “scar tissue”

Where do you get this scar tissue theory?

 

[East_Anglican]

“Purgatory is certainly not a tenet of Anglicanism.”

O.K. - FINE. We will just call the prayers for the dead in the Book of Common Prayers developement of doctrine within the Anglican Communion. How about that?

The Orthodox pray for the dead and they don’t believe in Purgatory either.

No need to tell me what we Anglicans believe I know what we believe better than you do. Talking of The Book of Common Prayer, The 39 Articles are at the back!

 

[CentralFLJames]

Originally Posted by East Anglican:

Purgatory is certainly not a tenet of Anglicanism.

Also, ECUSA have erred in many areas as you are aware. Furthermore, your quote from revised (1928) American Book of Common Prayers does not support the doctrine of Purghatory. To us Purgatory is still a fond thing, vainly invented, and grounded upon no warranty of Scripture.
“Purgatory is certainly not a tenet of Anglicanism.”

O.K. - FINE. We will just call the prayers for the dead in the Book of Common Prayers developement of doctrine within the Anglican Communion. How about that?

I don’t know how you feel about it but I am sure getting burned out in having to teach protestants and pseudo-protestants (Anglicans) their own theology just to get enough common base from which to teach them Catholicism and share the faith. No one told me that to become a Catholic apologist I’d have to teach world religion to the “C” students about their own religion just to get them up to speed enough to bootstrap them into the more advanced topics of Catholicism.

Sigh,
James

 

[climer97007]

I have still not read anything that pointed to purgatory. No more spin doctoring–where’s the beef?!?

Mickey, you obviously have the wrong idea about what Purgatory actually is to not be able to see it reflected in these scriptures.

Do you perhaps suppose that Catholics have invented a planet called Purgatory where people go after they die, and you don’t see any evidence of that planet in scripture? I mean, you have to have a very distorted pre-conception of purgatory to not get it.

Open your mind to the possibility that you might not know everything about God. If you ask the Holy Spirit to open your heart just a little bit, just long enough for you to get a glimpse of the Glory reflected in scripture, you will be able to rightly see the saving purgatorial fire of God’s love. Purgatory is none other than the effect of the infinite Love of God on our souls after our earthly death so that we, having been thus finally perfected by God, can enter into the eternal Glory of God.

Re-read these scriptures, and ask your self, is not the love of God burning deeply in your heart in the these scriptures?

Gene

 

[East_Anglican]

You better pray purgatory can be backed up by scripture since without it you and the rest of us are probably toast. Few make it to heaven - Jesus tells us this. Why take chances?

We are justified by faith, we are sanctified by grace through faith. Purgatory is not required.

So, in light of man’s sinful nature even an infantile exposition on the general tenants of mercy should reveal to even a child that God’s infinite Mercy would virtually necessitate the need for a place or condition like purgatory as a last chance for the luke-warm soul to purify itself before it meets God.

So you believe Jesus didn’t do enough?

What a filthy doctrine!

There is plenty of scripture that clearly refers to purgatory. The question is can you see it through the doctrinal predisposition and bias against it?

You are reading into it what you want to read into it not me.

 

[CentralFLJames]

Where do you get this scar tissue theory?

I suppose you don’t believe in baptism to remit the inherited scar tissue of original sin do you?

Use some common theological sense please.

James

 

[East_Anglican]

[continued from above]

But you really owe it to yourself to read the many many saints accounts over a thousand years of visions and visitations of and from purgatory. These souls are utterly helpless and need prayers to help quicken their purgation - many barley were rescued from Hell by God’s mercy on their death beds. These at the lowest levels suffer spiritual fire at the same intensity of Hell but they are comforted in the Joy that they are saved - even though some must wait till the end of time unless we help them. If you have ever lost a loved one - trust me there are high chances that they are hoping against all hope that you or someone will pray for them.

While we are alive we can help these souls through prayer and we can also remit our time. God’s Justice is severe and every last penny of debt for our forgiven sins must be paid for now or later. There are consequences for sin - even when forgiven. God’s love and mercy for us gives us purgatory. The truth is that souls are so overwhelmed at God’s Holiness and majesty when they die that they jump into hell or purgatory of their own accord since they feel naked and unworthy to see God face to face. God permits a soul not in grave sin to burn inwardly all its traces and memories of sin so that it may approach Him in confidence without trembling. It is an intense love for God that burns these souls - purgatory is not a punishment - it is a Mercy consistent with God’s Justice.

You owe it to yourself to read some of the saints works.

Here are some good ones:
SAINT CATHERINE OF GENOA Treatise on Purgatory
THE TEACHING OF ST. THERESE OF LISIEUX ON PURGATORY

This one is very sobering:
Dogma of Purgatory REV. F. X. SCHOUPPE, S.J.

There are many more references.

James

My hope is built on nothing less
Than Jesus blood and rightousness,
I dare not trust the sweetest frame
But wholly lean on Jesus name,
On Christ The Solid Rock I stand
All other ground is sinking sand.

All other ground is sinking sand.

The theif had sinned his whole life long and Jesus told him, he’d be with him in paradise that day. The reason is, Jesus paid the price for our sin, his blood avails for all.

 

[Mickey]

I suppose you don’t believe in baptism to remit the inherited scar tissue of original sin do you?

Inherited scar tissue!!! Oh my!

Holy Orthodoxy does not have the same undersatnding of original sin as Roman Catholicism. We do not believe that guilt is inherited from Adam. We beleive that you are born into a fallen world because of Adam’s sin and are subject to the passions and death. This is why we do not adhere to the invented doctrine of the Immaculate conception. The Virgin Mary was born into a fallen world just like you and I. But she chose, (through her own free-will), to remain sinless.

 

[Righteousone]

Source please!

If 2 Mach 12:46 backs up the idea of purgatory, it probably backs up the idea that Elvis is alive too.

I gave you the source, Luther’s own biography.

 

[CentralFLJames]

We are justified by faith, we are sanctified by grace through faith. Purgatory is not required.

So you believe Jesus didn’t do enough?

What a filthy doctrine!

You are reading into it what you want to read into it not me.

We all love the chauvinistic devotion to Jesus EA. That is all good and we all can relate to your zeal and Love of Jesus and His power. But do you really think the protestant salvation model of the soul being a ‘snow covered dung hill’ is really going to be presentable to God? Do you think God is that shallow?

If all we had to do was say “Jesus saves” and go around sinning freely then consider that you are blaspheming Jesus’ majesty and his suffering by assuming that His mission was to save you without working in cooperation with His grace to become more like Him.

Do you really think God wants a bunch of sinful natured white washed Jesus zealots running around in heaven patriotically waving the Christian banner and shouting "Jesus saves and those that can’t accept that are filthy heathens!? No - he wants converted beings who are wholly pure and presentable as individual beings and his spiritual children. He wants us to become like him - not as robots. Jesus makes that possible - Jesus calls us friends not slaves.

James

 

[climer97007]

Consubstantiation means that The Bread and Wine are litrally The Body and Blood of Christ. The idea that they are merely symbolic is a Sacrementarianist error.

Consubstantiation means that Jesus is temporarily present with the bread and wine. The bread is still bread, and the wine is still wine. The difference in Consubstantiation then is that Jesus only comes to dwell with the bread and with the wine, and , only temporarily.

Consubstantiation is not transubstantiation. Transubstatiation is the belief that the substance is actually changed, and that the bread no longer exists as bread, and the wine no longer exists as wine, and that only the substance of Jesus’ Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity remains.

Transubstantiation is the belief that what Jesus said is true. “This is My Body”. This is not my body mixed in with the bread, rather, “this is My Body”.

Gene

 

[East_Anglican]

Matt. 5:26,18:34; Luke 12:58-59 – Jesus teaches us, “Come to terms with your opponent or you will be handed over to the judge and thrown into prison. You will not get out until you have paid the last penny.” The word “opponent” (antidiko) is likely a reference to the devil (see the same word for devil in 1 Pet. 5:8) who is an accuser against man (c.f. Job 1.6-12; Zech. 3.1; Rev. 12.10), and God is the judge. If we have not adequately dealt with satan and sin in this life, we will be held in a temporary state called a prison, and we won’t get out until we have satisfied our entire debt to God. This “prison” is purgatory where we will not get out until the last penny is paid.

Revelation say that we overcome The Devil by The Blood of The Lamb and The Word of our testimony so that burst that bubble.

Luke 12:47-48 - when the Master comes (at the end of time), some will receive light or heavy beatings but will live. This state is not heaven or hell, because in heaven there are no beatings, and in hell we will no longer live with the Master.

This does not support Purgatory.

Luke 16:19-31 - in this story, we see that the dead rich man is suffering but still feels compassion for his brothers and wants to warn them of his place of suffering. But there is no suffering in heaven or compassion in hell because compassion is a grace from God and those in hell are deprived from God’s graces for all eternity. So where is the rich man? He is in purgatory.

The rich man was in Gehenna (Place of Torment) and Lazerus was in Hades (Sheol) Hades or Sheol was were the prisoners were before the reserction of Christ. Read The Apostles Creed.

So we see no referance to Purgatory here either.

1 Cor. 15:29-30 - Paul mentions people being baptized on behalf of the dead, in the context of atoning for their sins (people are baptized on the dead’s behalf so the dead can be raised). These people cannot be in heaven because they are still with sin, but they also cannot be in hell because their sins can no longer be atoned for. They are in purgatory. These verses directly correspond to 2 Macc. 12:44-45 which also shows specific prayers for the dead, so that they may be forgiven of their sin.

Paul spoke against being baptised for the dead in that passage. All you are doing is making purgatory soundlike somethig Joseph Smith cameout with.

Phil. 2:10 - every knee bends to Jesus, in heaven, on earth, and “under the earth” which is the realm of the righteous dead, or purgatory.

2 Tim. 1:16-18 - Onesiphorus is dead but Paul asks for mercy on him “on that day.” Paul’s use of “that day” demonstrates its eschatological usage (see, for example, Rom. 2.5,16; 1 Cor. 1.8; 3.13; 5.5; 2 Cor. 1.14; Phil. 1.6,10; 2.16; 1 Thess. 5.2,4,5,8; 2 Thess. 2.2,3; 2 Tim. 4.8). Of course, there is no need for mercy in heaven, and there is no mercy given in hell. Where is Onesiphorus? He is in purgatory.

Heb. 12:14 - without holiness no one will see the Lord. We need final sanctification to attain true holiness before God, and this process occurs during our lives and, if not completed during our lives, in the transitional state of purgatory.

None of theses verses back this up at all. If Heaven is above tThe Earth and Hell is below The Earth, where is purgatory apart from in peoples imaginations?

We are made holy by his work in us.

 

[Mickey]

But do you really think the protestant salvation model of the soul being a ‘snow covered dung hill’ is really going to be presentable to God? Do you think God is that shallow?

I am fairly certain that He will not be very pleased with triumphalistic legalistic judgemental pharisaical zealots who run around saying that everyone is condemned to hell.

 

[Mickey]

Consubstantiation is not transubstantiation. Transubstatiation is the belief that the substance is actually changed, and that the bread no longer exists as bread, and the wine no longer exists as wine, and that only the substance of Jesus’ Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity remains.

Do not worry about strange words and human definitions. It is the Real Presence of Jesus Christ in the Holy Eucharist. Human words cannot describe this great mystery.

 

[CentralFLJames]

My hope is built on nothing less
Than Jesus blood and rightousness,
I dare not trust the sweetest frame
But wholly lean on Jesus name,
On Christ The Solid Rock I stand
All other ground is sinking sand.

All other ground is sinking sand.

The theif had sinned his whole life long and Jesus told him, he’d be with him in paradise that day. The reason is, Jesus paid the price for our sin, his blood avails for all.

Very poetic EA. Why then can’t you see that we stand on the same rock through Jesus’ Church - The Catholic Church that was built on the rock of Peter?

BTW we believe that the theif went to “paradise” (upper regions of purgatory) not heaven since Jesus was the first human to enter heaven and he was not resurrected for 2 more “days”.

Notice which verse is conspicuously missing in your concluding verses:
…
But wholly lean on Jesus name,
On Christ the Solid Rock I stand
not King of England nor Anglican…

James

 

[Mickey]

BTW we believe that the theif went to “paradise” (upper regions of purgatory) not heaven

Is that in the catechism?

 

[CentralFLJames]

Inherited scar tissue!!! Oh my!

Holy Orthodoxy does not have the same undersatnding of original sin as Roman Catholicism. We do not believe that guilt is inherited from Adam. We beleive that you are born into a fallen world because of Adam’s sin and are subject to the passions and death. This is why we do not adhere to the invented doctrine of the Immaculate conception. The Virgin Mary was born into a fallen world just like you and I. But she chose, (through her own free-will), to remain sinless.

You don’t baptise yourselves? I think you need to dig a little deeper into your own theology…

James

 

[Mickey]

You don’t baptise yourselves?

No. The priest does.

 

[East_Anglican]

Heb. 12:23 - the spirits of just men who died in godliness are “made” perfect. They do not necessarily arrive perfect. They are made perfect after their death. But those in heaven are already perfect, and those in hell can no longer be made perfect. These spirits are in purgatory.

We are made perfect through Christ not through Purgatory.

1 Peter 3:19; 4:6 - Jesus preached to the spirits in the “prison.” These are the righteous souls being purified for the beatific vision.

Yes Jesus went to Hades. Correct. Jesus never went to purgatory because it doesn’t exist.

Rev. 21:4 - God shall wipe away their tears, and there will be no mourning or pain, but only after the coming of the new heaven and the passing away of the current heaven and earth. Note the elimination of tears and pain only occurs at the end of time. But there is no morning or pain in heaven, and God will not wipe away their tears in hell. These are the souls experiencing purgatory.

There will be no tears or pain at the second coming.

Rev. 21:27 - nothing unclean shall enter heaven. The word “unclean” comes from the Greek word “koinon” which refers to a spiritual corruption. Even the propensity to sin is spiritually corrupt, or considered unclean, and must be purified before entering heaven. It is amazing how many Protestants do not want to believe in purgatory. Purgatory exists because of the mercy of God. If there were no purgatory, this would also likely mean no salvation for most people. God is merciful indeed.

We are made clean by The blood of Christ. We are justified by faith.

.
Luke 23:43 – many Protestants argue that, because Jesus sent the good thief right to heaven, there can be no purgatory. There are several rebuttals. First, when Jesus uses the word "paradise,” He did not mean heaven. Paradise, from the Hebrew “sheol,” meant the realm of the righteous dead. This was the place of the dead who were destined for heaven, but who were captive until the Lord’s resurrection. Second, since there was no punctuation in the original manuscript, Jesus’ statement “I say to you today you will be with me in paradise” does not mean there was a comma after the first word “you.” This means Jesus could have said, “I say to you today, you will be with me in paradise” (meaning, Jesus could have emphasized with exclamation his statement was “today” or “now,” and that some time in the future the good thief would go to heaven). Third, even if the thief went straight to heaven, this does not prove there is no purgatory (those who are fully sanctified in this life – perhaps by a bloody and repentant death – could be ready for admission in to heaven).

Gen. 50:10; Num. 20:29; Deut. 34:8 - here are some examples of ritual prayer and penitent mourning for the dead for specific periods of time. The Jewish understanding of these practices was that the prayers freed the souls from their painful state of purification, and expedited their journey to God.

Sheol of Hades is not purgatory.

.

Baruch 3:4 - Baruch asks the Lord to hear the prayers of the dead of Israel. Prayers for the dead are unnecessary in heaven and unnecessary in hell. These dead are in purgatory.

Asking God to hear the prayers of the dead means dead in Purgatory? If it’s unnecessary to pray in Heaven why do you ask saints to pray for you?

.
2 Macc. 12:43-45 - the prayers for the dead help free them from sin and help them to the reward of heaven. Those in heaven have no sin, and those in hell can no longer be freed from sin. They are in purgatory. Luther was particularly troubled with these verses because he rejected the age-old teaching of purgatory. As a result, he removed Maccabees from the canon of the Bible.

Luther troubled by this? Why?

He prayed for the dead because he believed the dead would rise. The Bible does say the dead in Christ shall rise first doesn’t it? How does this support purgatory?

Also, The Jewish understanding of life after death was differant to ours.

 

[CentralFLJames]

I am fairly certain that He will not be very pleased with triumphalistic legalistic judgemental pharisaical zealots who run around saying that everyone is condemned to hell.

I don’t recollect seeing any of those around here. We are talking about God’s mercy in granting us purgatory. Are you seeing things that the rest of us don’t see or making judgement in a rather hippicritical way?

I was speaking objectively not personally. Here you are free to disagree with the interpretation of the doctrine but are not free slander the person.

James