T
- Status
E
East_Anglican
Guest
Purgatory is certainly not a tenet of Anglicanism.
Also, ECUSA have erred in many areas as you are aware. Furthermore, your quote from revised (1928) American Book of Common Prayers does not support the doctrine of Purghatory. To us Purgatory is still a fond thing, vainly invented, and grounded upon no warranty of Scripture.
M
Mickey
Guest
Sorry. Purgatory cannot be gleaned from Maccabees.
E
East_Anglican
Guest
True.
An Orthodox Priest explained to me why you do.
1, It’s like somebody who’s lost a loved one asking Christ to give them a hug on their behalf
2, If they were not in a state of peace and grace when they died they would feel uncomfortable in the precence of God.
I’m not sure about number 2 myself.
What gets me about Purgatory is when it is combined with praying to departed saints.
Before RC’s can pray to saints they have pray the saints out of Purgatory. This leads to a question that no RC has given me a satifactory answer to. It is, How do you know when the departed have left Purgatory?
E
East_Anglican
Guest
I’ll just put them all back in to context, but don’t let that stop you.
E
East_Anglican
Guest
Wrong. We Anglicans think it’s pointless praying the dead out of Purgatory because The dead are not there because Purgatory does not exist.
Has it been asserted much before 1208?
No.
C
CentralFLJames
Guest
You better pray purgatory can be backed up by scripture since without it you and the rest of us are probably toast. Few make it to heaven - Jesus tells us this. Why take chances?
The one unforgivable sin, the blaspheme against the Holy Spirit is to die impenitent in mortal sin. This is what this passage you cite means. There is NO MERCY available to a person (even if he calls himself a Christian) who dies in grave sin. This is why the sacrament of confession is essential for every Christian - since most of us commit some grave sin at some point in our lives. Illicit sex, adultery, self abuse, seven deadly sins (Lust, Gluttony, Greed, Sloth, Wrath, Envy, Pride [in one’s religious views I might add]), calling our brother a fool, condemning leaders of Christ’ Church etc. - ALL are grave sins. It does NOT suffice to forgive oneself or think one if forgiven by imagining it. ONLY Jesus can forgive sins and He does so through The Catholic Church priests and the sacrament of reconciliation.
So, in light of man’s sinful nature even an infantile exposition on the general tenants of mercy should reveal to even a child that God’s infinite Mercy would virtually necessitate the need for a place or condition like purgatory as a last chance for the luke-warm soul to purify itself before it meets God.
Learn from Adam’s nakedness when He sinned in Eden. He was ashamed to face God after He disobeyed. Learn from Jesus’ naked on the cross. He had no shame in the eyes of men nor in the eyes of God since He was just and sinless - shame could not touch Him. But none of us can face God without shame if we have even a single small sin on our souls or a trace of shame remaining from the memory of a forgiven sin. Each sin even when forgiven scars the soul with a trace of a memory that will tempt it back toward that same sin. That will torment us if we tried to face God in that doubtful and less than perfect condition.
Purgatory burns away that spiritual “scar tissue” and makes it impossible for us to recollect it in the pure light of God who sees all. After purgatory there will be no shameful scars to explain away nor any reason to tremble when we stand before God fully naked to His gaze.
Some very few saints and pious individual souls are made perfect at the instant of death by a special super abundance of grace and from devotional merits that they have secured through supplication of prayer and life devotions.
There is plenty of scripture that clearly refers to purgatory. The question is can you see it through the doctrinal predisposition and bias against it?
To wit:
Purgatory References in Scripture and ECF writings:
[continued]
James
C
CentralFLJames
Guest
[continued from above]
But you really owe it to yourself to read the many many saints accounts over a thousand years of visions and visitations of and from purgatory. These souls are utterly helpless and need prayers to help quicken their purgation - many barley were rescued from Hell by God’s mercy on their death beds. These at the lowest levels suffer spiritual fire at the same intensity of Hell but they are comforted in the Joy that they are saved - even though some must wait till the end of time unless we help them. If you have ever lost a loved one - trust me there are high chances that they are hoping against all hope that you or someone will pray for them.
While we are alive we can help these souls through prayer and we can also remit our time. God’s Justice is severe and every last penny of debt for our forgiven sins must be paid for now or later. There are consequences for sin - even when forgiven. God’s love and mercy for us gives us purgatory. The truth is that souls are so overwhelmed at God’s Holiness and majesty when they die that they jump into hell or purgatory of their own accord since they feel naked and unworthy to see God face to face. God permits a soul not in grave sin to burn inwardly all its traces and memories of sin so that it may approach Him in confidence without trembling. It is an intense love for God that burns these souls - purgatory is not a punishment - it is a Mercy consistent with God’s Justice.
You owe it to yourself to read some of the saints works.
Here are some good ones:
SAINT CATHERINE OF GENOA Treatise on Purgatory
THE TEACHING OF ST. THERESE OF LISIEUX ON PURGATORY
This one is very sobering:
Dogma of Purgatory REV. F. X. SCHOUPPE, S.J.
There are many more references.
James
But you really owe it to yourself to read the many many saints accounts over a thousand years of visions and visitations of and from purgatory. These souls are utterly helpless and need prayers to help quicken their purgation - many barley were rescued from Hell by God’s mercy on their death beds. These at the lowest levels suffer spiritual fire at the same intensity of Hell but they are comforted in the Joy that they are saved - even though some must wait till the end of time unless we help them. If you have ever lost a loved one - trust me there are high chances that they are hoping against all hope that you or someone will pray for them.
While we are alive we can help these souls through prayer and we can also remit our time. God’s Justice is severe and every last penny of debt for our forgiven sins must be paid for now or later. There are consequences for sin - even when forgiven. God’s love and mercy for us gives us purgatory. The truth is that souls are so overwhelmed at God’s Holiness and majesty when they die that they jump into hell or purgatory of their own accord since they feel naked and unworthy to see God face to face. God permits a soul not in grave sin to burn inwardly all its traces and memories of sin so that it may approach Him in confidence without trembling. It is an intense love for God that burns these souls - purgatory is not a punishment - it is a Mercy consistent with God’s Justice.
You owe it to yourself to read some of the saints works.
Here are some good ones:
SAINT CATHERINE OF GENOA Treatise on Purgatory
THE TEACHING OF ST. THERESE OF LISIEUX ON PURGATORY
This one is very sobering:
Dogma of Purgatory REV. F. X. SCHOUPPE, S.J.
There are many more references.
James
L
Lampo
Guest
Matt. 5:26,18:34; Luke 12:58-59 – Jesus teaches us, “Come to terms with your opponent or you will be handed over to the judge and thrown into prison. You will not get out until you have paid the last penny.” The word “opponent” (antidiko) is likely a reference to the devil (see the same word for devil in 1 Pet. 5:8) who is an accuser against man (c.f. Job 1.6-12; Zech. 3.1; Rev. 12.10), and God is the judge. If we have not adequately dealt with satan and sin in this life, we will be held in a temporary state called a prison, and we won’t get out until we have satisfied our entire debt to God. This “prison” is purgatory where we will not get out until the last penny is paid.I’ll just put them all back in to context, but don’t let that stop you.
Matt. 5:48 - Jesus says, “be perfect, even as your heavenly Father is perfect.” We are only made perfect through purification, and in Catholic teaching, this purification, if not completed on earth, is continued in a transitional state we call purgatory.
Matt. 12:32 – Jesus says, “And anyone who says a word against the Son of man will be forgiven; but no one who speaks against the Holy Spirit will be forgiven either in this world or in the next.” Jesus thus clearly provides that there is forgiveness after death. The phrase “in the next” (from the Greek “en to mellonti”) generally refers to the afterlife (see, for example, Mark 10.30; Luke 18.30; 20.34-35; Eph. 1.21 for similar language). Forgiveness is not necessary in heaven, and there is no forgiveness in hell. This proves that there is another state after death, and the Church for 2,000 years has called this state purgatory.
Luke 12:47-48 - when the Master comes (at the end of time), some will receive light or heavy beatings but will live. This state is not heaven or hell, because in heaven there are no beatings, and in hell we will no longer live with the Master.
Luke 16:19-31 - in this story, we see that the dead rich man is suffering but still feels compassion for his brothers and wants to warn them of his place of suffering. But there is no suffering in heaven or compassion in hell because compassion is a grace from God and those in hell are deprived from God’s graces for all eternity. So where is the rich man? He is in purgatory.
1 Cor. 15:29-30 - Paul mentions people being baptized on behalf of the dead, in the context of atoning for their sins (people are baptized on the dead’s behalf so the dead can be raised). These people cannot be in heaven because they are still with sin, but they also cannot be in hell because their sins can no longer be atoned for. They are in purgatory. These verses directly correspond to 2 Macc. 12:44-45 which also shows specific prayers for the dead, so that they may be forgiven of their sin.
Phil. 2:10 - every knee bends to Jesus, in heaven, on earth, and “under the earth” which is the realm of the righteous dead, or purgatory.
2 Tim. 1:16-18 - Onesiphorus is dead but Paul asks for mercy on him “on that day.” Paul’s use of “that day” demonstrates its eschatological usage (see, for example, Rom. 2.5,16; 1 Cor. 1.8; 3.13; 5.5; 2 Cor. 1.14; Phil. 1.6,10; 2.16; 1 Thess. 5.2,4,5,8; 2 Thess. 2.2,3; 2 Tim. 4.8). Of course, there is no need for mercy in heaven, and there is no mercy given in hell. Where is Onesiphorus? He is in purgatory.
Heb. 12:14 - without holiness no one will see the Lord. We need final sanctification to attain true holiness before God, and this process occurs during our lives and, if not completed during our lives, in the transitional state of purgatory.
L
Lampo
Guest
Heb. 12:23 - the spirits of just men who died in godliness are “made” perfect. They do not necessarily arrive perfect. They are made perfect after their death. But those in heaven are already perfect, and those in hell can no longer be made perfect. These spirits are in purgatory.I’ll just put them all back in to context, but don’t let that stop you.
1 Peter 3:19; 4:6 - Jesus preached to the spirits in the “prison.” These are the righteous souls being purified for the beatific vision.
Rev. 21:4 - God shall wipe away their tears, and there will be no mourning or pain, but only after the coming of the new heaven and the passing away of the current heaven and earth. Note the elimination of tears and pain only occurs at the end of time. But there is no morning or pain in heaven, and God will not wipe away their tears in hell. These are the souls experiencing purgatory.
Rev. 21:27 - nothing unclean shall enter heaven. The word “unclean” comes from the Greek word “koinon” which refers to a spiritual corruption. Even the propensity to sin is spiritually corrupt, or considered unclean, and must be purified before entering heaven. It is amazing how many Protestants do not want to believe in purgatory. Purgatory exists because of the mercy of God. If there were no purgatory, this would also likely mean no salvation for most people. God is merciful indeed.
Luke 23:43 – many Protestants argue that, because Jesus sent the good thief right to heaven, there can be no purgatory. There are several rebuttals. First, when Jesus uses the word "paradise,” He did not mean heaven. Paradise, from the Hebrew “sheol,” meant the realm of the righteous dead. This was the place of the dead who were destined for heaven, but who were captive until the Lord’s resurrection. Second, since there was no punctuation in the original manuscript, Jesus’ statement “I say to you today you will be with me in paradise” does not mean there was a comma after the first word “you.” This means Jesus could have said, “I say to you today, you will be with me in paradise” (meaning, Jesus could have emphasized with exclamation his statement was “today” or “now,” and that some time in the future the good thief would go to heaven). Third, even if the thief went straight to heaven, this does not prove there is no purgatory (those who are fully sanctified in this life – perhaps by a bloody and repentant death – could be ready for admission in to heaven).
Gen. 50:10; Num. 20:29; Deut. 34:8 - here are some examples of ritual prayer and penitent mourning for the dead for specific periods of time. The Jewish understanding of these practices was that the prayers freed the souls from their painful state of purification, and expedited their journey to God.
Baruch 3:4 - Baruch asks the Lord to hear the prayers of the dead of Israel. Prayers for the dead are unnecessary in heaven and unnecessary in hell. These dead are in purgatory.
Zech. 9:11 - God, through the blood of His covenant, will set those free from the waterless pit, a spiritual abode of suffering which the Church calls purgatory.
2 Macc. 12:43-45 - the prayers for the dead help free them from sin and help them to the reward of heaven. Those in heaven have no sin, and those in hell can no longer be freed from sin. They are in purgatory. Luther was particularly troubled with these verses because he rejected the age-old teaching of purgatory. As a result, he removed Maccabees from the canon of the Bible.
L
Lampo
Guest
Heb. 12:29 - God is a consuming fire (of love in heaven, of purgation in purgatory, or of suffering and damnation in hell).I’ll just put them all back in to context, but don’t let that stop you.
1 Cor. 3:10-15 - works are judged after death and tested by fire. Some works are lost, but the person is still saved. Paul is referring to the state of purgation called purgatory. The venial sins (bad works) that were committed are burned up after death, but the person is still brought to salvation. This state after death cannot be heaven (no one with venial sins is present) or hell (there is no forgiveness and salvation).
1 Cor. 3:15 – “if any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.” The phrase for “suffer loss” in the Greek is “zemiothesetai.” The root word is “zemioo” which also refers to punishment. The construction “zemiothesetai” is used in Ex. 21:22 and Prov. 19:19 which refers to punishment (from the Hebrew “anash” meaning “punish” or “penalty”). Hence, this verse proves that there is an expiation of temporal punishment after our death, but the person is still saved. This cannot mean heaven (there is no punishment in heaven) and this cannot mean hell (the possibility of expiation no longer exists and the person is not saved).
1 Cor. 3:15 – further, Paul writes “he himself will be saved, “but only” (or “yet so”) as through fire.” “He will be saved” in the Greek is “sothesetai” (which means eternal salvation). The phrase “but only” (or “yet so”) in the Greek is “houtos” which means “in the same manner.” This means that man is both eternally rewarded and eternally saved in the same manner by fire.
1 Cor. 3:13 - when Paul writes about God revealing the quality of each man’s work by fire and purifying him, this purification relates to his sins (not just his good works). Protestants, in attempting to disprove the reality of purgatory, argue that Paul was only writing about rewarding good works, and not punishing sins (because punishing and purifying a man from sins would be admitting that there is a purgatory).
1 Cor. 3:17 - but this verse proves that the purgation after death deals with punishing sin. That is, destroying God’s temple is a bad work, which is a mortal sin, which leads to death. 1 Cor. 3:14,15,17 - purgatory thus reveals the state of righteousness (v.14), state of venial sin (v.15) and the state of mortal sin (v.17), all of which are judged after death.
1 Peter 1:6-7 - Peter refers to this purgatorial fire to test the fruits of our faith.
Jude 1:23 - the people who are saved are being snatched out of the fire. People are already saved if they are in heaven, and there is no possibility of salvation if they are in hell. These people are being led to heaven from purgatory.
Rev. 3:18-19 - Jesus refers to this fire as what refines into gold those He loves if they repent of their sins. This is in the context of after death because Jesus, speaking from heaven, awards the white garment of salvation after the purgation of fire (both after death).
Dan 12:10 - Daniel refers to this refining by saying many shall purify themselves, make themselves white and be refined.
Wis. 3:5-6 - the dead are disciplined and tested by fire to receive their heavenly reward. This is the fire of purgatory.
Sirach 2:5 - for gold is tested in the fire, and acceptable men in the furnace of humiliation.
Zech. 13:8-9 - God says 2/3 shall perish, and 1/3 shall be left alive, put into the fire, and refined like silver and tested like gold. The ones that perish go to hell, and there is no need for refinement in heaven, so those being refined are in purgatory.
Mal. 3:2-3 - also refers to God’s purification of the righteous at their death.
M
Mickey
Guest
I have still not read anything that pointed to purgatory. No more spin doctoring–where’s the beef?!? 
S
sandusky
Guest
CentralFLJames said:
**Colossians 2:18
Let no one keep defrauding you of your prize by delighting in self-abasement and the worship of the angels, taking his stand on visions he has seen, inflated without cause by his fleshly mind…**I won’t, Lord.
T
Tomster
Guest
Please re-read post #158.
C
CentralFLJames
Guest
This is not true EA. Most saints and pious are delivered either straight to heaven or spend only a short time in purgatory - some as few as minutes we are told (but it is intense). We rarely know for sure when a soul is progressed - but there are many many saintly accounts of visitations from those in purgatory to those given the Charism to see these souls. These accounts give us specific examples of when certain souls were released. There are also very sobering accounts that many souls must stay in purgatory till the end of time unless somone prays for them.
The most severe accounts we have from the saints ironically are often the very religious and devout Christians who must spend a long time in purgatory since they knew so much about “the truth” yet did not act on it fully in their lives (God’s Justice: ‘to much that is given much is expected’). Therefor some of the most devout among us (priests, nuns etc.) are held to very high standards and we have saintly accounts that even for very minor offenses (being rude to another person in Church or inconsiderate etc.) some must spend many decades in purgatory. But we also hear that the intercessions, especially the Holy Mass offerings, have profound benefit to the Holy Souls in purgatory. God wants us to be charitable to our neighbor - both living and deceased and gives us a means to be charitable through spiritual coin - prayers and good intentions.
James
T
Tomster
Guest
BAM !!!
C
CentralFLJames
Guest
We just gave you dozens of scriptures and early church father’s writings. If you read all that in 5 minutes and digested it - I might suggest you are full of bologna and not ready for beef.I have still not read anything that pointed to purgatory. No more spin doctoring–where’s the beef?!?
Get real.
James
T
Tomster
Guest
“Purgatory is certainly not a tenet of Anglicanism.”
O.K. - FINE. We will just call the prayers for the dead in the Book of Common Prayers developement of doctrine within the Anglican Communion. How about that?
C
CentralFLJames
Guest
Thanks for the heads up Sandusky - I won’t let you defraud me of the truth we have.Colossians 2:18
Let no one keep defrauding you of your prize by delighting in self-abasement and the worship of the angels, taking his stand on visions he has seen, inflated without cause by his fleshly mind…I won’t, Lord.
James
M
Mickey
Guest
I’ve read most of it before. No purgatory–no beef.
- Status