Non catholic christians did you know
It is so a mandate in the sense that if you are a man catholic man you will never be considered for the office of a bishop or priest.
I think you meant to say “married” Catholic man. What you say is not the case, however, there have been many priests and bishops that used to be married Catholic men, and there are exceptions made to the discipline so that Protestants converting can still receive a call to the priesthood, even if they are married. However, it would great to start with the Diaconate training, ja4. That takes two years, and is comprised of almost all married men. Some who have become deacons later go on to become priests, and possibly a bishop.
However, none of these things are necessary for leadership. The vast majority of leadership in American parishes is provided by married laypeople. If you wish to provide leadership, have at it! Ordination is not required for leadership.
Where does Paul speak of leadership as described in I Timothy 3 as a “gift”?
I don’t see “leadership” there at all. Paul is talking about the ministers of the Church, who are given their duties as a gift. This happens through ordination, where the successors of the Apostles confirm the calling, and the laying on of hands with prayers of consecration.
2 Tim 1:5-7
6 Hence I remind you to rekindle the **gift of God **that is within you through the laying on of my hands; 7 for God did not give us a spirit of timidity but a spirit of power and love and self-control.
Eph 4:11
1 And his
gifts were that some should be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, some pastors and teachers,
1 Tim 4:14-15
14 Do not neglect **the gift **you have, which was given you by prophetic utterance when the council of elders laid their hands upon you.
One does not just “decide” that one wants to be a deacon, priest, or a bishop, orders an outfit, and starts practicing. One goes through a lengthly discernment process with a vocations director and spiritual director. During this process, one is given spiritual and academic preparation. If the Church agrees with the candidate that they have received an authentic call, then the process will continue through ordination. It is considered a gift from God for the benefit of the Church, and it is conferred by the laying on of hands.
i don’t want to be wrong—
How would you define discipline?
This is a good question, and I am not sure that I am qualified to answer it. One thing I can say, though, is that it is promulgated (put in place) by the ecclesiasticl heirarchy (authorized successors of the Apostles) and is designed to meet the needs of the Church. Disciplines can change, for example, in the first century, there were married Apostles and Bishops. By the third century, celibate clerics were preferred.
All disciplines in the catholic church are grounded in some doctrine either directly or indirectly. A doctrine is a rule or principle on which disciplines are formed.
Yes. I posted the relevant scriptural references to celibacy above. To Catholics, it is the other way around. A discipline is the rule or principle, and the Doctrine is what Jesus taught. That is why Doctrine cannot change, but disciplines can.
Not so. It is you and your church that has nullified the Word of God for the sake of your tradiitons.
The word of God is not nullified, ja4. In fact, I gave you some scriptures above that clearly value celibate life. I am not sure why you reject the celibate lifestyle. It is clearly supported in scripture and history.
No so. I know the scriptures don’t ever say that a church leader is to be celibate and single.
No, you are the one equating leadership with presbyter. A presbyter (elder) does not necessarily correspond with your secular notion of leadership, which your posts have demonstrated has something to do with “supremacy”. This notion, which is a contamination from the world, is not present in NT ideology of leadership. In the NT, the one who is to be “great” is the servant of all.
Do the Scriptures say this and if so where?
Paul tells Timothy to “guard what has been entrusted to you”. That is what he is talking about. See, ja4, this is where Sacred Tradition helps us out. We know the specifics of what was entrusted because it has come to us through Sacred Tradition. And although we don’t have any writings from Timothy, we know what he guarded because he passed it on faithfully to others who could teach it also. This is the apostolic succession.
What i’m trying to understand is the basis for a celibate-unmarried- church leadership comes from.
Why does it matter to you? You reject the whole concept. Has it occurred to you that this constitues researcher bias? If you want to research something, it is fundamental to have an open mind. If you have your mind made up in advance, then whatever information that comes in will only serve to confirm or deny your prejudice! What’s the point of trying to understand something you have already decided is a “doctrine of demons”?
