non-Catholic Christians - "Did You Know"?

[East_Anglican]

What a cluster bomb! In reference to question #2: The passage you are referring to goes something like, “Truly, truly I say to you today you will be with me in Paradise.”, correct? When Scripture was written, there was no punctuation and everything ran together. That same sentence would look like this: “TRULYTRULYISAYTOYOUTODAYYOUWILLBEWITHME(name removed by moderator)ARADISE.”
Is is possible then, Jesus said it *this *way?: “Truly, truly I say to you today, you will be with me in Paradise.” See the difference? “Truly, truly I say to you today…” vs. “Truly, truly I say to you…”
The former leaves room for Purgatory. Even if the latter is true, God could do anything He wants and could have let the thief skip purgatory, right? If He did let the thief skip purgatory, that doesn’t mean purgatory doesn’t exist.

There wasn’t punctuation, but there certainly was grammer. It means what it gramatically means. Stop trying one of them JW tricks.

You have to change scripture to fit Purgatory in. The doctrine of purgatory is not found in scripture and it also by its nature infers that Jesus didn’t do enough to save us from torment and failed in his mission. Couple it with the co-redemptrix doctrine and it infers, Jesus couldn’t do it with the help of his mother.

 

[Mickey]

Isn’t that like saying the animals didn’t exist before Adam named them?

No. It would be more like saying that Adam named the Lion, but many years later someone said it was a jellybean and so now it is accepted as a jellybean.

 

[Mickey]

You have to change scripture to fit Purgatory in.

Yes. One should not have to jump through Scriptural hoops to make it fit with a doctrine.

 

[Lampo]

No. It would be more like saying that Adam named the Lion, but many years later someone said it was a jellybean and so now it is accepted as a jellybean.

Glad THAT didn’t happen!

 

[Lampo]

There wasn’t punctuation, but there certainly was grammer. It means what it gramatically means. Stop trying one of them JW tricks.

You have to change scripture to fit Purgatory in. The doctrine of purgatory is not found in scripture and it also by its nature infers that Jesus didn’t do enough to save us from torment and failed in his mission. Couple it with the co-redemptrix doctrine and it infers, Jesus couldn’t do it with the help of his mother.

I don’t mind showing you why we Catholics know that purgatory exists, but it should probably be in another thread.

 

[Mickey]

Glad THAT didn’t happen!

smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/16/16_12_7.gif

 

[ChristianRoots]

East Anglican, The point I am trying to make is that just because there was no written reference to a particular concept in the early Church, does not necessarily mean it was not believed in the early church.

You pointed out that Matthew 28:19 is proof of the Trinity, and I agree. Christians always believed in the Trinity. So, why then was the doctrine not officially defined until the fourth century?

As I stated in my earlier post, it was because it was being challenged by heretics. It pains me to see people thinking transubstantiation was invented in 1215, the papal infallibility was created in 1871, etc.,etc. (see Clement’s Letter to the Corinthians, ca. A.D. 96)

These doctrines were all in that small mustard seed that now has grown to become a tree with branches.

 

[Lampo]

There wasn’t punctuation, but there certainly was grammer. It means what it gramatically means. Stop trying one of them JW tricks.

You have to change scripture to fit Purgatory in. The doctrine of purgatory is not found in scripture and it also by its nature infers that Jesus didn’t do enough to save us from torment and failed in his mission. Couple it with the co-redemptrix doctrine and it infers, Jesus couldn’t do it with the help of his mother.

I’m not trying to trick you I just thought it was plausible. Didn’t know that was a JW trick, for I haven’t dealt with them much. Here are some links to purgatory:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=195014
catholic.com/library/Purgatory.asp
staycatholic.com/purgatory.htm
scripturecatholic.com/purgatory.html

 

[Cathlacostal]

We look only to Christ and his holy word the Bible. You need to quit living in the past.

I’m considered a Protestant but I’m wondering if you have a mouse in you pocket with that “we”.
Let me borrow that mouse. "We say we follow scripture and not men. that goes directly against scripture as we are to obey the command of the apostles as well as those above us in the Church. Does the word shepherd have no meaning. We say we follow the direction of the Holy Spirit and yet within the Protestants, there is no agreement. We say, the Lord’s Supper is merely a memorial but accuse our Catholic brethren of being ceremonial. We say we are more like the early Church but we are not willing to live as such. We preach directly against the Catholic and spread lies about them from our pulpits. We (Protestants) allow the layman to vote in the pastors like a popularity contest. We allow any who will to teach our Sunday Schools and even vote on that. We allow so called deacons to fire the pastor even though they are under him. We have no true government. We pick and choose how we will believe without spiritual guidance from those God ordained. We come dangerously close to worshipping the Bible after we individually decide what it means.
You can have your mouse back. I’ll ask Batman and Robin if I can be Alfred.

 

[Mickey]

These doctrines were all in that small mustard seed that now has grown to become a tree with branches.

The Trinity is explicity evident throughout Scripture. But no “doctrines” such as papal infallibility/supremacy, purgatory, IC, existed in the early Church–no, not even as a so-called “mustard seed”.

These “developments of doctrine” are innovations and departures from early Church teachings.

 

[Lampo]

I’ve heard purgatory explained this way once:

1. Are you perfect now?
2. Will you be perfect when/if you make it to Heaven?
3. If you answered no to question #1 and yes to question #2, what about you changed? How did you become perfect?

Catholics give a name to the “change” - purgatory.

 

[ChristianRoots]

Scriptural proof for Purgatory, omitting Maccabees:

1 Corinthians 3:15
and to a lesser extent, Matthew 12:32

By the way, Purgatory is an inherent concept of Judaism, and as a side note, the words Trinity and Incarnation, like Purgatory, are nowhere found in scripture, but that shouldn’t mean much, right?

 

[Mickey]

Scriptural proof for Purgatory, omitting Maccabees:

1 Corinthians 3:15
and to a lesser extent, Matthew 12:32

By the way, Purgatory is an inherent concept of Judaism, and as a side note, the words Trinity and Incarnation, like Purgatory, are nowhere found in scripture, but that shouldn’t mean much, right?

Again, the Theophanies of the Trinity in Scripture are apparent–(The hospitality of Abraham, Christ’s baptism in the Jordan, the Transfiguration).

But to glean purgatory from Corinthians or St Matthew, is a stretch.

 

[historyb]

Hello bengal_fan, thank you for your post. You are correct and since the “Protestant” break from Catholicism, “Protestants” are still today “constantly trying to seek the truth”.

Yes they are, as a convert I am to which has led me away from Catholicism and back. To this day I am still unsure if I will always be Catholic. Part of my Protestant upbringing - constantly seek out truth. I am still not 100% convinced yet Catholicism is it.

So, of the estimate 36,000 different non-Catholic Christian religions, to what 'truth" do you subscribe? Moreover, why aren’t the “truths” contained in all the other (36,000) Christian religions the same?

The number is 1500, a bit less than your number. I had to look it up, it does prove my premise. That each side knows little about the other. They are called denominations by the way, not religions.

Protestant, “Christian Reform” is nothing more than: many different expressions of a mans desire to have God on his terms, and not on God’s terms.

This I disagree with. I could say the same thing happens in Catholicism, look at the disaster that the “spirit of V2” created.

**If one does not like or disagrees with the “truths”, doctrine or rule-set of any given, non-Catholic Christian religion; start another religion. **

Once again the are denominations. Sometimes that does happen in both camps, in Catholicism there is SSPX, SSPV, etc. So even though I ran into Catholics who try to put this forward, it doesn’t hold a lot of water.

---

Why aren’t “Protestants” as eager to openly argue their own differences with one another, as they are with the Roman Catholic Church, or Catholics?

**

They do, I when I was a Protestant openly argued differences with others and they with me. We do this because Protestants know we do not have a Monopoly on Doctrine.

 

[Hilde89]

Oh, but he is in some way, since your church with Protestanism only could start with Luther in the 1500’s, followed by King Henry…bottom line is , your religion is not from Christ.

That is quite aggravating actually. We have the same religion.

Yes he is, sorry

No.

 

[ChristianRoots]

Early Church References to Papal Supremacy, omitting Mt. 16:16-18:

Clement’s Letter to the Corinthians (A.D. 96)
The Sherpard of Hermas (A.D. 140)

Polycrates’ letter to Victor of Rome (A.D. 190)

How would one reconcile the above documents and their belief that there was no reference to papal supremacy in early church history?

 

[Cathlacostal]

There wasn’t punctuation, but there certainly was grammer. It means what it gramatically means. Stop trying one of them JW tricks.

You have to change scripture to fit Purgatory in. The doctrine of purgatory is not found in scripture and it also by its nature infers that Jesus didn’t do enough to save us from torment and failed in his mission. Couple it with the co-redemptrix doctrine and it infers, Jesus couldn’t do it with the help of his mother.

Are you certian Kevin? Are we not tried by fire? the concept that because it isn’t written means it’s not true doesn’t hold water. The Epistles were written and sent as problems and questions arose. while I’ll agree purgatory is not specifically mentioned I must again return to the position of having faith in the Church. At the very least, waiting for proof before I dismiss it. it’s not nearly as kooky as pulling verses from here and there and twisting them into a rapture.
Some practice solas scriptura but I know the neither of us do. If it were a proper practice the New Testament would have never been penned. Seems we (myself included) desire proof and yet we know we are to live by faith. We seek out heaven here on earth as we are not willing to wait upon the Lord. I know that purgatory goes against my leaning and much of my former preaching but I also now know much of that preaching was of my own design. We needn’t reduce God to the Bible alone. We hinder the Holy Spirit by doing so as our personal interpretations often close our ears to the truth.
Mankind doesn’t seem to learn well from prior mistakes. Christ was dismissed by His own people and it seems we still know better than those He annointed.
And still, you bring up some good points. It’s good to work it out.

 

[Mickey]

Early Church References to Papal Supremacy, omitting Mt. 16:16-18:

Clement’s Letter to the Corinthians (A.D. 96)

• The Sherpard of Hermas (A.D. 140)
  Polycrates’ letter to Victor of Rome (A.D. 190)

How would one reconcile the above documents and their belief that there was no reference to papal supremacy in early church history?

You confuse primacy of honor with supremacy. It is well documented that the Pope of Rome (being the pre-eminent Christian Church) carried a primacy of honor. But infallibility and supremacy was not known. All bishops were equal.

 

[Mickey]

while I’ll agree purgatory is not specifically mentioned I must again return to the position of having faith in the Church.

Before the great schism, there was one undivided Church. Now you have the Holy Orthodox Church and the Roman Catholic Church (and those in communion with the Church of Rome). The Holy Orthodox Church has apostolic succession, yet does not hold to the new doctrines of Rome that were promulgated after the schism.

Rome declared these new doctrines as a divided Church in councils which were not representative of an undivided Church. My conscience compels me to hold to the Orthodox understanding.

 

[Rightlydivide]

Early Church References to Papal Supremacy, omitting Mt. 16:16-18:

Clement’s Letter to the Corinthians (A.D. 96)
The Sherpard of Hermas (A.D. 140)

Polycrates’ letter to Victor of Rome (A.D. 190)

How would one reconcile the above documents and their belief that there was no reference to papal supremacy in early church history?

Clement wrote a letter to Corinth. So did Paul, his mentor. A lot of people wrote letters.

Polycrate’s letter says they must follow God, not man (Victor).