non-Catholic Christians - "Did You Know"?

[climer97007]

respect and primacy. Not supremacy and infallibility.
But it is you my friend, who must open his eyes. Shed your prejudice. The Church never knew this innovative doctrine until 1870! :banghead:
Nope.

It is not up to any of “us” to open anyones eyes. We can cooperate with the Holy Spirit, but, it is up to the Holy Spirit to do the heavy lifting. Any conversion will come from docility to the Holy Spirit. To take on the responsibility of God is not for us to grasp at.

Peter exercised both honor, respect and primacy in the book of Acts. He also excersied infallibility. Paul, though made an Apostle by Christ Himself, deferred to Peter. And at every key juncture in early church history (Acts) it is recorded that Peter made the binding decisions. It is a simple fact. No one should be arguing about this, lest he find himself outside the Christian church.

Gene

 

[CentralFLJames]

1: Maccabees are NOT Scripture!

2: Jesus meant what he said. What of it? He is unclean, who is an infidel. A true Christian is clean (justified) by faith.

Got to love Lutherans. They construct a theory on what they want to believe then go in after the fact and toss out the bible books that does not support their theory.

Do you think the Holy Spirit sat around for 1500 years waiting for Luther to come on the scene to explain to all the preceding generations that they had it wrong?

Can you show us even in Lutheran scripture where it says Luther and King James are the Messiah or the new teachers of truth?

James

 

[Protestant101]

Mary is “dead?”
Mk. 12:26-27 …how God said to him [Moses] “I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Issac, and the God of Jacob?” He is not the God of the dead, but of the living; you are quite wrong."

Unfortunately, you are using this text out of context, and that makes it a pretext.

Mark 12:25 gives the context that you missed. It states clearly: "
For when they shall rise from the dead" and this means that Mary has yet to be resurrected. The resurrection has not yet ocurred. God is not our God if we are dead, for the Bible also tells us how that “the dead know not anything.” (Eccl.9:5).

 

[Lampo]

1: Maccabees are NOT Scripture!

2: Jesus meant what he said. What of it? He is unclean, who is an infidel. A true Christian is clean (justified) by faith.

1: Incorrect. The Council of Rome in 382AD decided which books were inspired and to be included in the Bible - 46 OT books and 27 NT books. It was that way for 1,100 years! Luther removed 7 books from the OT on his own authority because they didn’t fit his theology. There were two Canons that the Jews used at the time of Jesus- the Palestinian Canon and the Alexandrian Canon (or the Septuagint.) Jesus used the Septuagint, which is the same one in Catholic Bibles today - 46 OT books. Your Protestant Bible has the same number of OT books the current Jewish Bible does today. The Jews decided this canon in the year 90AD at the Council of Jamnia. At this same Council, they declared the NT to be false. The same NT that is in your Protestant Bible today. If you believe the Council of Jamnia to be authoritative in deciding the Canon of Scripture, you must throw out the NT then. Protestants who reject the Catholic Bible are following a Jewish council that rejected Christ and the Revelation of the NT.

2: How do you determine a “true Christian?” Are you a “true Christian?”

 

[Fisher]

I will not defend ANY religion that ADDS works to faith alone in Jesus Christ!

The Lutheran religion is just that–religion! It is more religion than God, more ritualistic tradition than truth. Every false religion on the planet is cloaked with some degree of truth. Too many sincere people have churchianity without Christianity. I definitely include the Lutheran religion here. The average person today is utterly confused concerning what the truth really is. Baptism is a prime example. The Bible clearly teaches that baptism is NOT a sacrament (i.e., necessary for one’s salvation). John 4:2 informs us that Jesus did not baptize, the disciples did. 1st Corinthians 1:17 clearly teaches that Paul did NOT come to baptize anybody, but he did come to preach the gospel of Jesus Christ. I’m now going to share with you a few teachings from the “Small Catechism of Martin Luther” featured on many Lutheran church websites. Of course, these writings are authored by Martin Luther himself. I had always heard that Martin Luther became a believer after reading that “the just shall live by faith;” however, I simply have to question the genuine salvation of any man who believed and taught baptismal regeneration.

 

[climer97007]

I simply have to question the genuine salvation of any man who believed and taught baptismal regeneration.

Yeah, I know, especially men like Simon Peter. Why he went around Baptizing people in the book of Acts is anyone’s guess, right?

Same thing goes for the Gospel of Matthew. Why he records that Jesus Himself tells us to go out and Baptize in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit is anyone’s guess, right?

I mean, especially, if you are the sort of person who only takes certain biblical verses to heart, throws out whole books that you don’t agree with, and then chooses to simply ignore those other pesky little verses which are there to clarify the whole truth and not just the little bit that you might otherwise agree with.

Gene

 

[Righteousone]

1: Maccabees are NOT Scripture!

2: Jesus meant what he said. What of it? He is unclean, who is an infidel. A true Christian is clean (justified) by faith.

Then if Jesus meant what he said, there must be a purgatory.

 

[Righteousone]

What is Maccabees then Luther?

 

[CentralFLJames]

I’ve read most of it before. No purgatory–no beef.

Well, let’s see what you are really rationally saying here. What you are saying is that you are willing to flip a coin (50-50 bet) that you are right and I and 100’s of millions of past and current Catholics and Saints and Church Fathers and Popes and clergy and what we believe Christ is telling us are wrong. You are willing to flip a coin with a 50% chance of being right and bet your entire eternity that you will not go to hell and will not have any need of purgatory for yourself. You are willing to take a 50% bet that Jesus was only kidding when he said that ‘many will try but few will be able to enter by the narrow gate’. You are willing to make a 50% bet that Jesus was not serious when he said in* Matthew 5:26-27 ‘Make friends quickly with your opponent at law while you are with him on the way, so that your opponent may not hand you over to the judge, and the judge to the officer, and you be thrown into prison. 26 “Truly I say to you, you will not come out of there until you have paid up the last cent.’. *

Let me suggest to you my friend that eternity is a long time and so is a sentence to purgatory till the end of time. Why do you want to risk terrible odds at 50% that you can be wrong by not covering your bets? Why not say prayers for others and be charitable for them - no prayer is wasted ("Ask and it will be given to you” [Matthew 7:7]). Why not pray for yourself some of the very simple devotional prayers? Why not each night before retiring pray to God Psalm 51 - The Miserere: Prayer of Repentance? Why not look into some of the Catholic Devotionals that give divine promises and assurances of final repentance before death?

Why risk being wrong and spending time in purgatory if you can avoid it by spending a little time now?

If you are too proud to do that or can’t do that due to doctrinal prohibition then I suggest that you make friends with a few good Catholics and ask them to perform some purgatory devotionals for you. And if you have ever lost any loved ones ask a Catholic friend to make the Divine Mercy devotional coming up on the Second Sunday of Easter, “Divine Mercy Sunday”. It’s a full plenary indulgence if they are in a high state of grace.

If you won’t do it for yourself I’ll do it for you. Unless you renounce Christ you won’t be able to stop The Chaplet of Divine Mercy. Incoming…

Someday you will thank me for it.

James

 

[Shanisaurus]

Are you sure you are not Lutheran?

LOL! No I’m not EA. I’m a Cradle Catholic. We don’t even have Lutheran Church here in Sri Lanka. Just wondering about some points in the Catholic teachings that don’t go along with the Bible.

 

[Shanisaurus]

Hello Shanisaurus

I found your post interesting to read - you don’t really talk like a typical Catholic though.

I was wondering if you could tell me what version of Bible you used in your post, especially re the texts in Ephesians? I would appreciate knowing that.

I do think that you are on the right track re your comments about Mary and Purgatory. Even if I didn’t view it as what some call “soul sleep;” I would have a lot of trouble with the idea of Purgatory.

I would encourage you to keep studying your Bible as you have been. It is "the way, the truth, and the life; for in it we “see Jesus.” How can anyone go wrong with that?

Hi Protestant101, I have three Bibles. The King James Version, New International Version, and the Sinhalese version of the King James Bible published by the Ceylon Bible Society (Catholic). The quote I gave from the NIV.

Why talk to the Kings mother when you can go directly to Him? Hmmm, let’s look at scripture. In the old testament, the King’s Queen was always his mother. If you were on the Kings bad side, you approached him first through his mother. You would be seeking her influence with the King. It is just like King Solomon in the old testament and Bathsheba, his Queen mother. When a guy was afraid the King was going to kill him, the guy first talked with the King’s mother, hoping she would have enough influence over the King to save his life.

If you need to approach Jesus, and you have egg all over your face, you might want to approach Mary first. Scripture says that the prayer of a rightious person is useful. There are non more righteous in Heaven than Mary save God Himself.

Gene

Gene, THAT’S the difference between humans and God. When it comes to God I always have “egg on my face”. But HE has said in Isaiah 1:18 that “though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.” And He has said that I am one of His children (1John 3:1 “Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God” and 3:2 “Beloved, now are we the sons of God”) So do I still need to peep out from behind Mommy’s skirt when I need to approach Daddy? Jesus said “Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, he will give it you.” (John 16:23) So WHY do we need to ask through someone else? If you DO believe that God knows best when it comes to giving or not giving us what we ask for, and if you DO believe that you are a child of God…WHY?

I do agree that the prayer of a righteous person is useful. Praying for each other is strongly encouraged in the Bible. But does the Bible say anything about those in Heaven praying for those on earth? Check out Revelations, and it seems to me that they have more important (or should I say the MOST important) things to do - Praising God.

 

[Jimmy_B]

We are made perfect through Christ not through Purgatory.

Yes Jesus went to Hades. Correct. Jesus never went to purgatory because it doesn’t exist.

There will be no tears or pain at the second coming.

We are made clean by The blood of Christ. We are justified by faith.

Sheol of Hades is not purgatory.

Asking God to hear the prayers of the dead means dead in Purgatory? If it’s unnecessary to pray in Heaven why do you ask saints to pray for you?

Luther troubled by this? Why?

He prayed for the dead because he believed the dead would rise. The Bible does say the dead in Christ shall rise first doesn’t it? How does this support purgatory?

Also, The Jewish understanding of life after death was differant to ours.

Hello East Anglican,

I appreciate your comments and I am not in disagreement with everything you posted. However, I do believe that our understanding of various ‘phrases” and “words” may be different, so I just wanted to address some of what you have posted here and ask you some questions:
“We are made perfect through Christ not through Purgatory.”

1. I thought this was a “Born-Again” phrase, is this an East Anglican phrase as well? What does this mean and what does “perfect” mean in this context. When and how specifically, is one made “perfect" through Christ?

*2. *

We are made clean by The blood of Christ. We are justified by faith.*

2. Once again, this sounds like a “Born-Again” or an “Evangelical”/“Fundamentalist” phrase. Please describe your definition of “justified”.

Is this phrase and the phrase (above), *“**We are made perfect through Christ” *repeated very often the East Anglican Church? I’m curious, because I thought the East Anglican Church was one of the “older” Protestant Churches and that these two phrases were from relatively recent times, I could be wrong, so please correct me if I am and provide your sources

*3. *

Asking God to hear the prayers of the dead means dead in Purgatory? If it’s unnecessary to pray in Heaven why do you ask saints to pray for you?*

3. We ask for their intercession, this is biblical. However, it is not a “Catholic Requirement” to pray to Saints, just to believe in the Creed, and the Communion of Saints, this is how Intercession can be understood. Doesn’t the East Anglican Church believe in the Nicene or the “Apostles” Creed?

*4. *

*He prayed for the dead because he believed the dead would rise. The Bible does say the dead in Christ shall rise first doesn’t it? How does this support purgatory? **

4. Please provide the Bible Chapter and Verse.

*5. *

Also, The Jewish understanding of life after death was differant to ours*

*5. I do not understand this comment, Jewish people do not believe in Jesus Christ; however, we, (all Christians) do share the same God in Heaven with our Jewish friends, the God Moses and Abraham. Please explain this comment. *

Thank you.

 

[East_Anglican]

Aside from purgatory being in Scripture (Maccabees), Jesus also said you will not enter the Kingdom of Heaven unclean. What do you suppose he meant by that then?

I repeat

We are made perfect through Christ not through Purgatory.

 

[East_Anglican]

We all love the chauvinistic devotion to Jesus EA. That is all good and we all can relate to your zeal and Love of Jesus and His power. But do you really think the protestant salvation model of the soul being a ‘snow covered dung hill’ is really going to be presentable to God? Do you think God is that shallow?

If all we had to do was say “Jesus saves” and go around sinning freely then consider that you are blaspheming Jesus’ majesty and his suffering by assuming that His mission was to save you without working in cooperation with His grace to become more like Him.

Do you really think God wants a bunch of sinful natured white washed Jesus zealots running around in heaven patriotically waving the Christian banner and shouting "Jesus saves and those that can’t accept that are filthy heathens!? No - he wants converted beings who are wholly pure and presentable as individual beings and his spiritual children. He wants us to become like him - not as robots. Jesus makes that possible - Jesus calls us friends not slaves.

James

With out Christ we can not enter Heaven if Purgatory exists or not (Which it doesn’t) Jesus said “No one comes to The Father except by me.” It is Christ that makes us pure not Purgatory.

 

[East_Anglican]

Consubstantiation means that Jesus is temporarily present with the bread and wine. The bread is still bread, and the wine is still wine. The difference in Consubstantiation then is that Jesus only comes to dwell with the bread and with the wine, and , only temporarily.

Correct.

Consubstantiation means that Jesus is temporarily present with the bread and wine. The bread is still bread, and the wine is still wine. The difference in Consubstantiation then is that Jesus only comes to dwell with the bread and with the wine, and , only temporarily.

Consubstantiation is not transubstantiation. Transubstatiation is the belief that the substance is actually changed, and that the bread no longer exists as bread, and the wine no longer exists as wine, and that only the substance of Jesus’ Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity remains.

Correct.

Transubstantiation is the belief that what Jesus said is true. “This is My Body”. This is not my body mixed in with the bread, rather, “this is My Body”.

What Jesus said is true. It is his body. But it is still bread. It says he took bread and said “This is my body.” If it is not bread, why do the gospel writers call it bread?

 

[East_Anglican]

Very poetic EA.

Yeah, I love Charles Wesleys hymns.

Why then can’t you see that we stand on the same rock through Jesus’ Church - The Catholic Church that was built on the rock of Peter?

I know that your faith is built on Christ. If it wasn’t you wouldn’t be Christians and I would have told you that by now.

The Rock is that revealed from Heaven Jesus’ Messiahship and Sonship. If Jesus isn’t The Messiah then he could not have delivered us and we would be all lost. If He isn’t The Son of God he’d be just like us to the point where he would need saving too.

Without Jesus’ Messiahship and Sonship Christianity falls.

BTW we believe that the theif went to “paradise” (upper regions of purgatory) not heaven since Jesus was the first human to enter heaven and he was not resurrected for 2 more “days”.

Notice which verse is conspicuously missing in your concluding verses:

Which ones?

But wholly lean on Jesus name,
On Christ the Solid Rock I stand
not King of England nor Anglican…

Of course. I do sing God Save The Queen though.

 

[East_Anglican]

Do not worry about strange words and human definitions. It is the Real Presence of Jesus Christ in the Holy Eucharist. Human words cannot describe this great mystery.

Absolutely right.

 

[East_Anglican]

So, finally, we can see the root of the issue for you. You think that purgatory has nothing to do with the Christ!

As long as you cling to this misunderstanding of Catholic teaching, you will never know of the true glory of the simple teaching concerning purgatory.

Purgatory is nothing other than our exoperience of the effects of the fire of God’s Love for us after our earlthy life comes to an end. To struggle against purgatorial fire of God’s Love is pointless, other than to continmue to point out your ignorance and lack of acceptance of the simple loving truth.

You don’t have to live in ignorance. You don’t have to continue in a stubbron rebellion.

Gene

We are redeemed from all the filth of sin and the consequences of sin by the blood of The Lamb. Nothing more , nothing less.

 

[East_Anglican]

Got to love Lutherans. They construct a theory on what they want to believe then go in after the fact and toss out the bible books that does not support their theory.

Abraham believed and it was credited to him as rightousness. That’s in Genesis! The Just shall live by faith. That’s in Habukkuk! So The Old Testament proclaims Rightouness by Faith.

How many times did Jesus say “Your faith has healed you”? Healed = made whole = made holy= made clean. Justification by faith is so obviously biblical, we don’t even need to quote Paul to support it.

What’s really annoying is you agree with us then mess it up with doctrines that are not biblical like indulgencies and Purgatory.

As The Jews don’t acknowledge Deutro Cannon, are you sure you didn’t add them?

Do you think the Holy Spirit sat around for 1500 years waiting for Luther to come on the scene to explain to all the preceding generations that they had it wrong?

Wycliffe and Huss came before Luther for a start.

Can you show us even in Lutheran scripture where it says Luther and King James are the Messiah or the new teachers of truth?

Of course we can’t. That’s because they are niether.

 

[East_Anglican]

I will not defend ANY religion that ADDS works to faith alone in Jesus Christ!

The Lutheran religion is just that–religion! It is more religion than God, more ritualistic tradition than truth. Every false religion on the planet is cloaked with some degree of truth. Too many sincere people have churchianity without Christianity. I definitely include the Lutheran religion here. The average person today is utterly confused concerning what the truth really is. Baptism is a prime example. The Bible clearly teaches that baptism is NOT a sacrament (i.e., necessary for one’s salvation). John 4:2 informs us that Jesus did not baptize, the disciples did. 1st Corinthians 1:17 clearly teaches that Paul did NOT come to baptize anybody, but he did come to preach the gospel of Jesus Christ. I’m now going to share with you a few teachings from the “Small Catechism of Martin Luther” featured on many Lutheran church websites. Of course, these writings are authored by Martin Luther himself. I had always heard that Martin Luther became a believer after reading that “the just shall live by faith;” however, I simply have to question the genuine salvation of any man who believed and taught baptismal regeneration.

1, Faith without works is dead.

2, Please define tradition.

3, Jesus said “You must be born of water and The Spirit.”

It does say we have been born again of The Word. It does say we have been made pure by the word. This implies that baptism is a sacrament of the word.

4, To say infant baptism isn’t valid is to say infant circumcision isn’t valid meaning that Jesus was not a proper Jew.