non-Catholic Christians - "Did You Know"?

[Mickey]

Calling it an inexplicable mystery may not be very helpful.

Another name for “Sacraments” is “Mysteries”.
Did you know that?
Ever wonder why?

 

[East_Anglican]

You seem like a smart individual. I’m sure you’ve been told about the biblical references for purgatory.

All the so called biblical referances to Purgatory can’t support purgatory with out messing up the actual theology they are really about.

Y I’m sure you’ve heard of Sacred Tradition, I’m sure you’ve heard of Divine Revelation. The points you make (or imply) are moot.

Wrong.

The “veil:” of your protestant thinking does not allow you to get past your own rebellion. For you and others like you I pray.

You can prayt for me if you like. God isn’t going to show me Purgatory exists because it doesn’t.

Prophecy continues to unfold in our time and…in due time God will reveal the truth to all. That may come in the form of a Warning, a Miracle or something else. But, have you no doubt - it will come.

I have no dioubt about that. It’ll be gereat when everyone stops beliewving in Purgatory.

 

[Tomster]

Does The Bible tell us to adore it?

No.

There is no evidence the early Church adored the sacrament. Yes it is The body of Christ but it is something to be recieved in reverance not something to adore and worship.

Transubsatantiation hadn’t been invented by The RC Church prior to the 1070 split.

Because I got fed up of people here telling me we believe it is merely symbolic.

Well, St.John tells us in the first chapter of his gospel that the Word was made flesh and dwelt amongst us and that the Word was God. The Word made flesh - The Incarnation. The Most Holy Eucharist is worthy of adoration.

We can around on this one if you like.

 

[Tomster]

No.

We agree on a lot of things.

We believe in one God,
the Father, the Almighty,
maker of heaven and earth,
of all that is, seen and unseen.
We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ,
the only Son of God,
eternally begotten of the Father,
God from God, light from light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made,
of one Being with the Father;
through him all things were made.
For us and for our salvation
he came down from heaven,
was incarnate of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary
and became truly human.
For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate;
he suffered death and was buried.
On the third day he rose again
in accordance with the Scriptures;
he ascended into heaven
and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead,
and his kingdom will have no end.

We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life,
who proceeds from the Father [and the Son],
who with the Father and the Son is worshiped and glorified,
who has spoken through the prophets.
We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church.
We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.
We look for the resurrection of the dead,
and the life of the world to come. Amen.

“We agree on a lot of things.”

But not on everything.

 

[East_Anglican]

Well, St.John tells us in the first chapter of his gospel that the Word was made flesh and dwelt amongst us and that the Word was God. The Word made flesh - The Incarnation. The Most Holy Eucharist is worthy of adoration.

We can around on this one if you like.

I think we should halt anything on The Eucharist, the discussion might go south.

 

[Tomster]

All the so called biblical referances to Purgatory can’t support purgatory with out messing up the actual theology they are really about.

Wrong.

You can prayt for me if you like. God isn’t going to show me Purgatory exists because it doesn’t.

I have no dioubt about that. It’ll be gereat when everyone stops beliewving in Purgatory.

Why would it be great if everyone stopped believing in Purgatory? BTW - Not everyone believes it. Take you for example.

 

[Tomster]

I think we should halt anything on The Eucharist, the discussion might go south.

Oh, come on.

Start a thread. Start with Cranmer if you like.

 

[CentralFLJames]

Got to love Papists. They regard books that are filled, to the point of overflowing, with errors, anachronisms, etc, just because they justify some of the Roman church’s flawed doctrines.

Your question about the Holy Spirit could also be used as anti-Christian propaganda by rabbinic Jews. Why should God wait 2000 years before sending the Messiah?
That line of reasoning is null and void.

And to your last part:
As it has been said: No, I cannot. For they are neither. There is only ONE Lord - Yeshua HaMashiach - not the pope, or councils, who have so often contradicted themselves.

Do you mean to say that Lutherans trusted the Jews who did not recognize Yeshua HaMashiach as their very own messiah to know what was inspired in scripture?! Do you mean to say that Lutherans trust the judgement of those who judged Jesus worthy of death? Do you mean to say that Lutherans trust the very same people who rejected the Septuagint only because Jews were converting to Christianity in large numbers and all early Christians saw its inspiration?

I was just curious, when a Lutheran puts her hand on the bible to make a solemn swear does she mentally cross her fingers, say “I swear on this bible” and inwardly think ‘except for the Catholic nonsense contained in the appendix’? If so, pardon me in so saying, but does this behavior not sound just like the manner of a lawyer or a Pharisee to you?

Do you think its rational to have trusted The Catholic Church and Catholic popes for 1,500 years in their selection of the scripture of the original Catholic Bible then suddenly not trust them when an alcoholic and rebellious man named Luther arrives to rebel against what all previous Christians accepted as truth; a man who had an estranged and abused relationship with his parents?

We agree on one single point - Christ is Lord of all.
You Lutherans for some strange reason can not accept that Christ appointed a Vicar on earth to represent Him as it is stated in scripture. What is peculiar is that Lutherans did not edit out that part too ( Matthew 16:18 “And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, 13 and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it.” )

Personally though I seriously must question the rationality of anyone who identifies with the teachings of Luther and can call themselves Lutherans.

Luther is dead and buried - may God have mercy on his soul.

The first papal head of the Roman Catholic Church said all that Christians need to know about False Teachers:
2 Peter 1:

But there were also false prophets among the people, even as there shall be among you lying teachers who shall bring in sects of perdition and deny the Lord who bought them: bringing upon themselves swift destruction

James

 

[East_Anglican]

Another name for “Sacraments” is “Mysteries”.
Did you know that?
Ever wonder why?

It’s obvious.

How do we by partaking of the sacrement proclaim Christ’s death until he comes?

It’s a mystery.

How are we buried with him in baptismm and risen to new lif in him?

It’s a mystery.

It is mystical, not gnostic.

 

[Mickey]

If the central issue for you is lack of believe in purgatory and you want to follow a consensus rule formula then start counting numbers. Count Catholic then add the Eastern Orthodox since they believe it too.

1. Regarding numbers–the path is narrow.
2. The Holy Orthodox Church most certainly does not adhere to the strange doctrine of purgatory.

 

[Mickey]

We can cooperate with the Holy Spirit, but, it is up to the Holy Spirit to do the heavy lifting.

Amen.

Peter exercised both honor, respect and primacy in the book of Acts.

Yes.

He also excersied infallibility.

No.

Paul, though made an Apostle by Christ Himself, deferred to Peter. And at every key juncture in early church history (Acts) it is recorded that Peter made the binding decisions.

You better read Acts again. St James chaired the first Council (Jerusalem).

It is a simple fact. No one should be arguing about this, lest he find himself outside the Christian church.

Here is the simple fact. There was no such thing as papal supremacy/infallibility in the history of the Church until post schism Rome began toying with the idea eventually defining it in 1870 at Vatican I.

I truly believe that St Peter himself, who was a humble and pious man of God, would be appalled at such a dogma.

To declare that someone who does not accept this strange doctrine is outside the Church, is a pharisaical statement.

 

[Tomster]

1. Regarding numbers–the path is narrow.
2. The Holy Orthodox Church most certainly does not adhere to the strange doctrine of purgatory.

Why pray for the dead then?

 

[Mickey]

Why pray for the dead then?

For God to have mercy.

 

[Mickey]

It’s obvious.

How do we by partaking of the sacrement proclaim Christ’s death until he comes?

It’s a mystery.

How are we buried with him in baptismm and risen to new lif in him?

It’s a mystery.

It is mystical, not gnostic.

Amen my brother!
smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/17/17_1_29.gif

 

[Mickey]

Well, let’s see what you are really rationally saying here. What you are saying is that you are willing to flip a coin

I do not gamble.

100’s of millions of past and current Catholics and Saints and Church Fathers and Popes and clergy and what we believe Christ is telling us are wrong.

Again, the doctrine of purgatory was unknown by the Church until post-schism Rome defined it in the 13th century.

You are willing to flip a coin with a 50% chance of being right and bet your entire eternity that you will not go to hell and will not have any need of purgatory for yourself.

There are no coin tosses–and there are no odds. I place my trust in my Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

Let me suggest to you my friend that eternity is a long time

Amen. That is why, as St Paul tells us, we should strive to pray unceasingly. I would recommend the prayer of the publican: “Lord have mercy on me a sinner.”

Why do you want to risk terrible odds at 50% that you can be wrong by not covering your bets?

My dear brother in Christ—we are not playing the lottery here!

Why risk being wrong and spending time in purgatory

There is no purgatory.

If you are too proud to do that

I always fight against the passion of pride. I am the most wretched of all sinners.

It’s a full plenary indulgence if they are in a high state of grace.

I always pray for my loved ones. Indulgences are a Roman Catholic invention.

If you won’t do it for yourself I’ll do it for you.

I never refuse someone praying for me. I will pray for you also.

 

[mangy_dog]

Amen.
Yes.
No.
You better read Acts again. St James chaired the first Council (Jerusalem).
Here is the simple fact. There was no such thing as papal supremacy/infallibility in the history of the Church until post schism Rome began toying with the idea eventually defining it in 1870 at Vatican I.

I truly believe that St Peter himself, who was a humble and pious man of God, would be appalled at such a dogma.

To declare that someone who does not accept this strange doctrine is outside the Church, is a pharisaical statement.

Christ Himself defined the infallability of the pope. “You are Peter you are rock and over this rock I will build my church” Whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, whatever you loose on earth will be loosened in heaven" "those whose sins you retain will be retained, those whose sins you forgive,…etc etec etc.
Peter would not be appalled at anything that “de Gloriae Olivae” or “Petrus Romanus” would declare.

Pax Domini sit semper vobiscum.

 

[Mickey]

Christ Himself defined the infallability of the pope.

Nope.

“You are Peter you are rock and over this rock I will build my church” Whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, whatever you loose on earth will be loosened in heaven" "those whose sins you retain will be retained, those whose sins you forgive.

Christ is the foundation and cornerstone. St Peter had just confessed Jesus as the Messiah. You and I are also like St Peter if we confess Jesus Christ to be the Messiah, the Son of the living God. Yes. St Peter was a leader. But he was not above the other Apostles (see Matt 18:18). And he was not some supreme infallible entity.

Slava Isusu Christu!

 

[East_Anglican]

1. Regarding numbers–the path is narrow.

Exactly. Many will say “Lord, Lord didn’t we do this in your name and that in your name.”

1. The Holy Orthodox Church most certainly does not adhere to the strange doctrine of purgatory.

That’s right.

A lot of Protestants are converting to Orthodoxy ( I know a lot who have myself)

Why are they converting to Orthodoxy and not Roman Catholicism?

Icons?

Apeared early on in Church history. Plus an Icon is not necessarilly a graven image.

Relics?

Elisha’s bones, Pauls handkercheifs and appearances of them early on in Church history. (I admit we Protestants might be wrong on this.)

Praying to saints?

No problem. (Though I do have one with it.)

Why not Roman Catholicism?

Purgatory?

That’s the one!

No referance in Scripture or Church history until the middle ages.

There’s a few weird marialogical doctrines of Rome that are more troublesome than any Orthodox Marialogical doctrine too.

 

[Tomster]

I do not gamble.
Again, the doctrine of purgatory was unknown by the Church until post-schism Rome defined it in the 13th century.
There are no coin tosses–and there are no odds. I place my trust in my Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.
Amen. That is why, as St Paul tells us, we should strive to pray unceasingly. I would recommend the prayer of the publican: “Lord have mercy on me a sinner.”
My dear brother in Christ—we are not playing the lottery here!
There is no purgatory.
I always fight against the passion of pride. I am the most wretched of all sinners.
I always pray for my loved ones. Indulgences are a Roman Catholic invention.
I never refuse someone praying for me. I will pray for you also.

Actually, Pope Gregory the Great (590 - 604) wrote about Purgatory in the fourth book of his Dialogues.

Two hundred years before St. Gregory, St. Augustine did the same.

Two hundred years before before St. Augustine, Tertullian did the same.

 

[CentralFLJames]

So you reject Scripture… It’s as simple as that.
Baptism is the sign of the new covenant, just as circumsition was the sign of the old.
If a man was not circumsized, he had no part in the covenant of God’s people, or the promise given to them. As baptism is the sign of the new covenant, the same would seem to apply.
I have written a rather lenghty article on this subject on the website of Jews for Jesus, but I am as of yet unable to find it :S

Finally: Am I saying that people who are not baptized cannot be saved?
NO!
I am sayíng that God has bound US to the Sacraments, not Himself.

How odd that the Jewish women who birthed the “men” were left conspicuously ambiguous in their salvation by the inability to participate in the old Jewish covenant through adherence to circumcision. It seems that a fundamentalist view of scripture has been a thing that has seperated so many from God for so long as humankind has been seperated from rationality…

Prayer is the only hope to reunite man both to God and reason…

James