non-Catholic Christians - "Did You Know"?

[justasking4]

CentralFLJames;3384706]

Originally Posted by justasking4
The marian doctrines and the further developement of them. Celibate leadership, Peter as pope and penance to name a few.

CentralFLJames
You can not find a single scripture verse that contradicts any of the Church doctrines. The celibacy requirement is not a core doctrine necessary for an individuals salvation. It is a priestly qualification that is a held tradition out of reverence and respect to Jesus as the model of our High Priest setting the example of celibacy.

The celibacy doctrine does contradict the scriptures. The apostle Paul evidently did not think he was to base church leadership on Jesus being single but on more fundamental and important foundations that married men would make excellent leaders but your church has denied this fundamental biblical doctrine.
Is it not true that the church for centuries did in fact have married leadership?

JTA4 - I get so sad for people like you. You have been so brainwashed by the fundamentalist poison that it is going to take a miracle or a major personal event (usually of the tragic variety) to get through to you. God WILL get you back if you keep seeking though. It’s only a matter of time.

I don’t reason like one who has been brainwashed. If i was guilty of this you and others would have refuted my arguments long ago. Secondly i could say exactly the same thing about you and other catholics but that would not be correct to say so. Other factors are going on than brainwashing.

I recommend that you start questioning your own Protestant teaching with as critical an eye as you have against Catholic teaching. There are deceitful devils out there pretending to be men of God who are trying to pander to demogogery and petty biases and humanity’s natural contempt for all authority to keep you from receiving your crown of truth and full heavenly reward.

i agree there are false teachers in many protestant churches. I’m not suprised since the scriptures warned of this. The sad thing is that catholics cannot admit to false teachers because they believe that the scriptures promised that their church can err even when presented with facts that they have.

If you are objective of heart then you need to start looking at the following scripture verses and ask yourself who taught you to be disobedient to Jesus’ teachings in these areas (Authority, Tradition, Baptism [real not symbolic], Eucharist [real not symbolic] , Anointing, Suffering, Works).

Again you need to do the same and take the scriptures in context. When you do, you will be forced to make some decisions that many of the claims of your church are unbilical and should be rejected.

You are banking your entire salvation on the teaching-traditions of the Protestant revolution that only go back 500 years. The Catholic Church goes back 2,000 years and can trace itself to the original apostles.

This in and of itself does not prove anything. Just because something has been around longer does not mean its true. What all Christians need to do is to study the Scriptures and compare the teachings of their church with them. The catholic church has failed in many areas in this regards.

 

[CentralFLJames]

The celibacy doctrine does contradict the scriptures. The apostle Paul evidently did not think he was to base church leadership on Jesus being single but on more fundamental and important foundations that married men would make excellent leaders but your church has denied this fundamental biblical doctrine.
Is it not true that the church for centuries did in fact have married leadership?

This is an ecclesiastical matter it is not a matter related to personal salvation. The Church has the authority to loose and bind. That is an authority that extends toward setting standards of conduct, liturgy, educational requirements and admission requirements, profession of faith etc. for all roles within the Church. The way you are saying this it comes across like you think our laity have no leadership positions within the Church. etc.

I don’t reason like one who has been brainwashed. If i was guilty of this you and others would have refuted my arguments long ago. Secondly i could say exactly the same thing about you and other catholics but that would not be correct to say so. Other factors are going on than brainwashing.

In fact your arguments have all be utterly refuted. You just are not listening and accepting the truth since you are not using a rational and objective basis and are arguing from a subjective and emotional basis. Not everyone can understand through an avenue of reason. Many are called but few are chosen.

i agree there are false teachers in many protestant churches. I’m not surprised since the scriptures warned of this. The sad thing is that catholics cannot admit to false teachers because they believe that the scriptures promised that their church can err even when presented with facts that they have.

We have absolutely no historical event thus far that hints of a doctrinal error. We have no false teachers. What we do have are individual mistakes. It is entirely possible that somone could make a mistake and be out of step with official Church Teaching. These cases are taken care of one by one as we find them.

Again you need to do the same and take the scriptures in context. When you do, you will be forced to make some decisions that many of the claims of your church are unbilical and should be rejected.

I have found no cases where the Church is out of step with scripture. You need to understand that The Church compiled Scripture not the other way around. You want to teach the teacher.

This in and of itself does not prove anything. Just because something has been around longer does not mean its true. What all Christians need to do is to study the Scriptures and compare the teachings of their church with them. The catholic church has failed in many areas in this regards.

What all Christians need to do is obey Jesus and follow His commandments and respect the authority He gave to The Church. Understand that there is only one authority on earth that can interpret scripture and that is The Catholic Church.

James

 

[ChristianRoots]

This is true. However there are thousands of pieces of manuscripts and full manuscripts coupled with the writings of the Fathers that scholars could put the entire NT back together in its original form. What we possess today is what the original looked like.

No, the original Gospel manuscripts, for example, have been lost. What you are referring to is copies of the originals. The question then remains: How do you know the Gospels were prevented from becoming corrupt when being copied by fallible hands?

I believe so since the God of the universe would have power to do so.

Why can’t the God of the universe also preserve oral teachings then?

 

[ChristianRoots]

I would not use the word “truer” Christians but more knowledgeable.

I guess then the Christians of today are not **truer **Christians than the Christians of the first or second century either despite the fact the early Christains did not possess the written New Testament canon of 27 books. I can agree with that!

Much of the marian doctrines, the rosary, purgatory these and others were doctrines and practices unknown to the early church.

I disagree. You assume these doctrines were unknown because it is not explicit in Scriputure. But a doctrine can exist without it being explicit in Scripture as long as it is not in contradiction to Scripture.

And by the way, the Rosary is not Catholic doctrine but discipline.

 

[guanophore]

The Holy Spirit does guide the church at times but there are also times when men missunderstand it or they have their own evil agenda’.

The HS guides the church ALL the time, not just “some” of the time. Yes, there are times when men misunderstand, or have their own evil agenda. But you seem to think that the misunderstanding and evil of men is more powerful than God?

Not necessarily so. The Scriptures have their source in Christ and He used the church to define the NT canon.

Yes, the source of the Scripture is Christ, and He does not separate Himself from His Church, the Bride. They are united.

We know it was not the Roman Catholic church since it did not exist then.

Will this be an opportunity for you to jettison some of that Roman bigotry, then?

The Scriptures are the inspired-inerrant truth of God and the church is to support these truths. Not to take away or add but to support the whole counsel of God. Sadly the catholic has failed in this.

The Church is to support the Truth of God, yes, but the Scripture was never intended to contain all of that truth, or the “whole counsel of God”. The Whole Truth is found in Christ, who is not limited to the pages of the NT.

This is true. However there are thousands of pieces of manuscripts and full manuscripts coupled with the writings of the Fathers that scholars could put the entire NT back together in its original form. What we possess today is what the original looked like.

I believe so since the God of the universe would have power to do so.

How is it that you can believe God can do this with the Scripture, but not the Church?

Do you think the Roman Catholic church has ever made errors in its teachings and practices?

Practices change over time, and evolve. They have been changed as society and science have evolved. Doctrine is defined by Jesus through the Apostles, and does not change.

If Jesus promised His disciples that He would “**guide them **into all the truth” (John 16:13) then they would have know of these marian doctrines also. These would have been part of “all the truth”. The fact that they did not know these things is an indication of a false teaching.

You are assuming they did not know these things, because they did not write about them in the NT. It is also true that some of the Truth was not immediately evident to the Apostles. For example, although Jesus taught that the Faith was for the Gentiles, He had to get very blunt with Peter before He could “get” it years after the resurrection. The Marian doctrines evolved out of Aposotlic Teachings about Jesus, which were not necessary to define formally until heresies arose.

What “ministry” did she have after she raised Jesus?

Jesus gave Mary to the Church, through the beloved disciple who was standing at the foot of the cross.

What is this verse a reference to?

Something that did not make sense at the time, but became clear later.

I thought it doctrines were progressive. I must be wrong.

Doctrines are not progressive. Jesus revealed Truth in one whole deposit. our understanding of it is progressive. Just as we see in the NT that the Apostles did not understand things right away.

 

[guanophore]

I need some clarification on this. Are you saying that none of the teachings of Christ are based on the Scriptures?

Yes. The Scripture is part of God’s revelation of Himself to mankind. Jesus is the ultimate revelation of God to mankind.

" And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, full of grace and truth; we have beheld his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father. 15(John bore witness to him, and cried, “This was he of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me ranks before me, for he was before me.’”) 16 And from his fulness have we all received, grace upon grace. 17 For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. 18 No one has ever seen God; the only Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, he has made him known." John 1:14-18

Jesus scolded the Jews for looking in the scriptures, which pointed to Himself, but they would not come to Him and be saved.

“You search the scriptures, because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is they that bear witness to me; 40 yet you refuse to come to me that you may have life.” John 5:38-40

Eternal life is not found in the Scripture but in Jesus Himself, fully present in HIs Church.

I agree in part. However, does not the catholic church teach that the “book” i.e. the Scriptures are Divine Revealtion also?

Yes, but the Scriptures were never intended to be separated from the other part of Divine Revelation from whence they were produced.

 

[guanophore]

This issue is not about the Holy Spirit but about fallen men and the demonic forces against the church.

What you are saying is that you believe that fallen men and demonic forces were more powerful in the Church than the HS. You state that God worked through the Church to produce the canon, but sometime after that fallen men with evil agendas under demonic forces led the church into false doctrines.

Christ never promised the church would be totally protected from these forces or that they would not be able to do damage to the church.

On the contrary, that is EXACTLY what He promised. Persecution always purifies the Church, and heresy lets the truth be more clear. It is the duty of the Church to uphold Truth in the midst of error, and she does this by the Power of the HS.

History clearly shows that this is true. The church at times has gotten some things right and at others it has greatly erred not only in some of its doctrines but practices. I’m sure by now you know what i’m referring to. If not i can refresh your mind.

It seems to me that your conception of God is that He is to weak or too uncaring to keep HIs promises.

 

[guanophore]

Who has the infallible interpretation of these things?

Jesus, present in His Church.

Are you going to say your fallible leaders are now infallible when we know that all men are fallible?

It is the HS who is infallible, ja4. The HS works through the Church to reveal Christ, making the Church is infallible also.
No one is saying that men do not err.

Are you going to say that Peter was the founder and leader of the church at Rome when there is no evidence for it?

The Apostles are the foundation of the Church. There were believers in Rome prior to Peter going there, but once He arrived, he was considered a pillar, along with Paul. The two of them teaching and being martyred there is one of the things that gave Rome the primacy.

Are your going to say that celibate leadership is what the Scriptures teach

Scriptures don’t “teach” ja4. People teach. In scripture we see both Jesus and Paul promoting celibacy for those who are called to this gift. The Roman Rite prefers to take for priests those who are called to celibacy.

in contradisinction to the Scriptures clear teaching that married men were to be leaders as taught in I Timothy 3?

Most of the leaders in the Catholic Church are laypeople, ja4, and are married. In fact, if you wish to become a Deacon, you can do so as a married person.

Are you going to say that the Scriptures teach that a man must perform some kind of penace when they don’t teach such a thing?

Scriptures don’t teach, ja4, people teach. Penance is scriptural. Should we open another thread for this? Now is a good time, since we are in Lent!

On what basis will you say these things are not true?

Sacred Tradition, and the Authority given by Christ to the Church to bind and loose.

 

[guanophore]

I will answer if you honestly tell me that you truly want to understand Catholic teaching.

Well, please don’t do it here. I copied the post to:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=3386094#post3386094

 

[guanophore]

I’m not sure what you mean here. Can you clarify?

The task of teaching was given to the Church, ja4. Jesus commanded the Apostles to “teach all that I have commanded”. People teach, not books.

How does a catholic know when they are doing this? For example how do you know if you are interpreting a particular passage of scripture according to the authority of the church if the church has never defined something or infallibly interpreted a particular passage that you are studying?

The Apostolic Teaching is to be taken as a unified whole. It is not appropriate to separate parts of it from one another. Parsing out verses and interpreting them separately from the whole is not what Jesus demonstrated. We know the Teachings of Jesus through the Doctrine of the Church. When we are outside of that, then we are either misunderstanding scripture, or misunderstanding the Doctrine.

Take a couple of examples in regards to Mary being an ark type. Has the church offically ruled that she is such?

Or that she is the spouse of the Holy Spirit. Where has the church offically pronounced this of her?

Both of these doctrines are amply demonstrated in the Gospel of Luke. Luke deliberately paralleled Mary’s experience with that of the Ark. He described how Mary was espoused by the HS.

The celibacy doctrine does contradict the scriptures.

Celibate priesthood in the Roman Rite is a discipline, not a doctrine. Celibacy is encouraged by Jesus and Paul in the NT. If your teaching is taken as a standard, neither Jesus, Paul, Timothy, or a number of others would qualify!

The apostle Paul evidently did not think he was to base church leadership on Jesus being single but on more fundamental and important foundations that married men would make excellent leaders but your church has denied this fundamental biblical doctrine.

ja4, when you make statements like “your church” you come across as being divisive and accusatory. There is only One Church, and all who are members of Christ are members of it. When you tear at the Body of Christ like this, it wounds all of us, including Christ. Paul did not disqualify celibate people from leadership, or he would have had to disqualify himself as well as Timothy, to whom he was giving instruction. Paul was advising that one should not have been married more than once, because it indicates an inability to maintain a commitment.

Is it not true that the church for centuries did in fact have married leadership?

You are confusing the priesthood with leadership. The priesthood is a very specific ministry in the Church. There are many leaders who are not priests. All of the non-Roman Rites admit married persons to priesthood as well as celibates. Celibate priesthood is preferred, and those who are chosen for the priesthood commit not to marry after taking vows. Why does this bother you so much? Do you think Jesus and Paul were bad examples, since they were celibate?

Other factors are going on than brainwashing.

Such as?

i agree there are false teachers in many protestant churches. I’m not suprised since the scriptures warned of this. The sad thing is that catholics cannot admit to false teachers because they believe that the scriptures promised that their church can err even when presented with facts that they have.

The Catholic Church identifies false teachers and puts them out. This is how the Church is prevented from teaching error. This is what was done with Luther.

Again you need to do the same and take the scriptures in context. When you do, you will be forced to make some decisions that many of the claims of your church are unbilical and should be rejected.

Matters of faith are not “forced”, ja4. When you say things like this, you come across sounding like a person who has been abused by authority. The Catholic doctrines are not based on the bible, but on Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith! For that reason, none of them contradict the Bible, which was produced by the Sacred Tradition committed to the Apostles.

The catholic church has failed in many areas in this regards.

ja4, sometimes it really seems like you are not here to learn at all, but just to attack Catholicism. What is the motive for all this hostility?

 

[justasking4]

Lampo;3384744]
Originally Posted by justasking4
I understand Catholic teachings and i understand what the scriptures teach.

Lampo
I guess Luke 10:16 applies here. “Whoever listens to you listens to me. Whoever rejects you rejects me. And whoever rejects me rejects the one who sent me.”

Have you checked the context for this passage? To whom is Jesus addressing and what purpose?

Quote:
Originally Posted by justasking4
Do you understand what the Scriptures teach on these things in context?

Lampo
Yes, because I am a committed Catholic.

This doesn’t really answer my question.

 

[justasking4]

ChristianRoots;3385576]

Originally Posted by justasking4
This is true. However there are thousands of pieces of manuscripts and full manuscripts coupled with the writings of the Fathers that scholars could put the entire NT back together in its original form. What we possess today is what the original looked like.

ChristianRoots
No, the original Gospel manuscripts, for example, have been lost. What you are referring to is copies of the originals.

If you look at the scholarship in this field they claim that the entire NT (original) could be reconstructed from all these manuscripts of the NT and the writings of the fathers.

ChristianRoots
The question then remains: How do you know the Gospels were prevented from becoming corrupt when being copied by fallible hands?

There are some scribal errors in our NT but we have an excellent idea what the original writings looked like by comparing younger manuscripts with older ones.

Quote:ChristianRoots
I believe so since the God of the universe would have power to do so.

i agree

Why can’t the God of the universe also preserve oral teachings then?

There is no indication that He did up to the present time. Oral teachings would have worked well in the Jewish culture of the time but not outside of it. Secondly, oral teachings are easily corrupted while its far more difficult to corrupt something that is written.

 

[justasking4]

ChristianRoots;3385602]
Originally Posted by justasking4
I would not use the word “truer” Christians but more knowledgeable.

ChristianRoots
I guess then the Christians of today are not truer Christians than the Christians of the first or second century either despite the fact the early Christains did not possess the written New Testament canon of 27 books. I can agree with that!

What do you mean by “truer”?

Quote:justasking4
Much of the marian doctrines, the rosary, purgatory these and others were doctrines and practices unknown to the early church.

ChristianRoots
I disagree. You assume these doctrines were unknown because it is not explicit in Scriputure. But a doctrine can exist without it being explicit in Scripture as long as it is not in contradiction to Scripture.

What apostle taught that you are to pray to Mary? If Jesus truly did promise to “guide the disciples into all the truth” (John 16:13) then this would have included the Marian doctrines and purgatory etc.

And by the way, the Rosary is not Catholic doctrine but discipline.

What doctrine is the rosary based on?

 

[justasking4]

CentralFLJames;3385569]
Originally Posted by justasking4
The celibacy doctrine does contradict the scriptures. The apostle Paul evidently did not think he was to base church leadership on Jesus being single but on more fundamental and important foundations that married men would make excellent leaders but your church has denied this fundamental biblical doctrine.
Is it not true that the church for centuries did in fact have married leadership?

CentralFLJames
This is an ecclesiastical matter it is not a matter related to personal salvation. The Church has the authority to loose and bind. That is an authority that extends toward setting standards of conduct, liturgy, educational requirements and admission requirements, profession of faith etc. for all roles within the Church.

Where did Jesus or His apostles give authority to any church to change the requirement for leadership that is clearly spelled out in Scripture?

CentralFLJames
The way you are saying this it comes across like you think our laity have no leadership positions within the Church. etc.

The true leadership that can influence and make doctrines-practices is held only to the celibate leadership. We don’t see this model in the NT.

 

[onenow1]

Hi,Ja4
Quote=Lampo
I guess Luke 10:16 applies here. “Whoever listens to you listens to me. Whoever rejects you rejects me. And whoever rejects me rejects the one who sent me.”

Speaking to his disciples who believed in him.

The deeper teaching reads like this, ‘He who hears me through your mouth will never hear anything but the absolute truth’.

Sorry for barging in Lampo I think this is your understanding.

Quote= OneNow1, Good proof text for infallability on oral teaching.

Peace, OneNow1: twocents:

 

[justasking4]

onenow1;3387173]Hi,Ja4
Quote=Lampo
I guess Luke 10:16 applies here. “Whoever listens to you listens to me. Whoever rejects you rejects me. And whoever rejects me rejects the one who sent me.”

Speaking to his disciples who believed in him.

The deeper teaching reads like this, ‘He who hears me through your mouth will never hear anything but the absolute truth’.

Where do you get this out of this text? Does the catholic church teach this and if so where?

Sorry for barging in Lampo I think this is your understanding.

Quote= OneNow1, Good proof text for infallability on oral teaching.

How so?

Peace, OneNow1: twocents:

 

[guanophore]

Have you checked the context for this passage? To whom is Jesus addressing and what purpose?

The reference is there, ja4, you are perfectly capable of looking it up yourself. The point is that Catholics understand Jesus to be speaking to the Apostles. He empowered them with His own authority to run the Church until He should return. Apparently you understand the passage differently, since you seem to believe that this authority, instead of lasting until “the end of the age” as He promised, died with the last Apostle.

This doesn’t really answer my question.

The context of the scripture, ja4, is the Catholic Church. They were written by, for, and about Catholics. The scriptures don’t “teach”. People teach. Jesus empowered the Apostles to “teach all that I have commanded”, and they did this, before any word of the NT was ever penned.

 

[guanophore]

What apostle taught that you are to pray to Mary?

We see this clearly in the book of John, where the wedding party runs out of wine, and Mary intercedes with Jesus. I am sure that Mary prayed for and ministered to the disciples of Jesus during her lifetime on earth, but she outlived most of the writing of the NT. The Apostles taught the “communion of saints”, that is why this phrase is used in the Apostles Creed. According to this doctrine, those who have died in Christ are, like the thief that died with HIm on the cross, are in His presence, and they are very much alive and well. “Soul sleep” is not the teaching of Jesus.

a If Jesus truly did promise to “guide the disciples into all the truth” (John 16:13) then this would have included the Marian doctrines and purgatory etc.

And so it has!

What doctrine is the rosary based on?

That the Apostles command us to pray for one another, that we may be healed. The Rosary is full of references to doctrine. Maybe we should address this on another thread?

Where did Jesus or His apostles give authority to any church to change the requirement for leadership that is clearly spelled out in Scripture?

The authority to make rules and enforce discipline is what binding and loosing is all about. However, the Church did not “change” any requirements of scripture. The Church still avoids placing persons in positions of leadership who have had multiple marriages. This is considered a sign of inability to keep one’s vows. Such persons are considered poor candidates to shepherd the house of God. Being married is not a “requirement” for leadership. Jesus and Paul were not married, yet they were stellar pastors to the church.

The true leadership that can influence and make doctrines-practices is held only to the celibate leadership. We don’t see this model in the NT.

This is not the case, ja4, and reflects a lack of understanding of the structure of the Church. The Church does not “make doctrines”. All the doctrines of the Church come from Jesus through the Apostles. Practices are highly influenced by the laity, and most of the private devotions come to the Church through non-consecrated persons. If you do not see that celibacy for the Kingdom is highly prized in the NT then you are reading it with your anti-Catholic bigotry glasses. I recommend that you throw them in the trash!

 

[onenow1]

Where do you get this out of this text? Does the catholic church teach this and if so where?

CC # 96 What Christ entrusted to the apostles, they in turn handed on in preaching and wruiting. under the influence of the Holy Spirit, to all generations until Christ returns in glory.

Quote= OneNow1, Good proof text for infallability on oral teaching.

ja4 How so? Because he just said so in Luke 10: 16.

Peace OneNow1

 

[Lampo]

This doesn’t really answer my question.

How does answering “yes” not answer your question?