Non-Catholic Exclusion of the Eucharist

[Padres1969]

I think I already answered this: if Thorolfr came to our LCMS parish, met with the pastor, expressed a desire to receive, states a unity to the Lutheran confessions, and that no ELCA parish was nearby where he/she could receive, I have no doubt about the welcome. That’s what happened to me.

OTOH, if a Baptist or an evangelical came in, stating he/she believed in a symbolic presence, then no, probably not. Why? Mainly to protect him from the consequences of not discerning the real and substantial body and blood of Christ on the altar.

Jon

Essentially… not all closed communions are created equal, or as really closed as each other.

 

[JonNC]

This, of course, is not true. Certainly for some Christian denominations, the bread and the wine are symbolic and memorial. But there are non-Catholic Christians who also believe in the Real Presence, including Orthodox Christians, many Lutherans, many Anglicans, etc.

Many Lutherans?

To be Lutheran, you must believe in the real presence. It is an article of faith, a doctrine of the Church. If one does not believe in the real presence, they may go to a Lutheran Church, but they are not Lutheran. The doctrines set out in the Augsburg Confession are not optional.

Jon

 

[JonNC]

Not all have Apostolic Succession and Valid Holy Orders in order to have the TRUE Presence, even if they want to believe so. Don’t you ever wonder why there haven’t ever been any Eucharistic Miracles in other denominations?? God Bless, Memaw

That isn’t what you said. You said:

"The Catholic Church knows and teaches exactly what Jesus Christ said our Holy Communion would be. This IS MY Body, This IS MY Blood. Others do NOT believe that."

And this is plain false. The first statement is false, too, from our perspective, but it is what your communion teaches, so you do well to express it.

Jon

 

[JonNC]

Essentially… not all closed communions are created equal, or as really closed as each other.

Hence, the reason the LCMS calls it “close communion”.

Jon

 

[Padres1969]

Many Lutherans?

To be Lutheran, you must believe in the real presence. It is an article of faith, a doctrine of the Church. If one does not believe in the real presence, they may go to a Lutheran Church, but they are not Lutheran. The doctrines set out in the Augsburg Confession are not optional.

Jon

I think I remember reading that 62% of Catholics don’t believe the Eucharist becomes the body and blood of Christ in a Catholic mass. It wouldn’t surprise me to find the Lutherans have a similarly large percentage of adherents that don’t believe a basic Eucharistic tenant of their faith like the real presence.

 

[JonNC]

I think I remember reading that 62% of Catholics don’t believe the Eucharist becomes the body and blood of Christ in a Catholic mass. It wouldn’t surprise me to find the Lutherans have a similarly large percentage of adherents that don’t believe a basic tenant like the real presence.

Sad, sad statement regarding catechesis. But catechized properly, rejection of the real presence is a rejection of not only Lutheran doctrine, but of the doctrine of the Universal Church prior to the Reformation era.

Jon

 

[Thorolfr]

Many Lutherans?

To be Lutheran, you must believe in the real presence. It is an article of faith, a doctrine of the Church. If one does not believe in the real presence, they may go to a Lutheran Church, but they are not Lutheran. The doctrines set out in the Augsburg Confession are not optional.

Jon

I’m not talking about official doctrine but rather what the average Lutheran believes. Polls have shown that even many Catholics do not believe that the bread and the wine are the body and blood of Jesus:

THIRD GALLUP POLL (1992): BELIEF IN DOGMA ON HOLY EUCHARIST

In January 1992, the St. Augustine Center Association sponsored a second
Gallup poll, called “A Gallup Survey of Catholics regarding Holy Communion.”
This poll, which included telephone interviews of 519 U.S. Catholics during the
period of December 10, 1991, to January 19, 1992, revealed that

ONLY 30% OF NOVUS ORDO CATHOLICS BELIEVE THE DE-FIDE DOGMA ABOUT THE SACRAMENT
OF THE HOLY EUCHARIST

namely, that at Communion they are really and truly receivng the Body and
Blood, Soul and Divinity of Our Lord Jesus Christ, under the appearance of
bread and wine, which is known as the Real Presence.

traditio.com/tradlib/polls.txt

So who knows whether most Lutherans do better at knowing what their denomination teaches.

 

[peter26]

I think I already answered this: if Thorolfr came to our LCMS parish, met with the pastor, expressed a desire to receive, states a unity to the Lutheran confessions, and that no ELCA parish was nearby where he/she could receive, I have no doubt about the welcome. That’s what happened to me.

OTOH, if a Baptist or an evangelical came in, stating he/she believed in a symbolic presence, then no, probably not. Why? Mainly to protect him from the consequences of not discerning the real and substantial body and blood of Christ on the altar.

Jon

Out of interest, would Lutherans give communion to a non-Lutheran (say an Anglican) who believed in the real presence if there was no Anglican church nearby?

 

[MT1926]

It’s a lot easier to say you need to understand the differences and actually understand them. I’ve read a handful of times on here where Catholics are fully understanding the Evangelical side. That’s not bad, for some it’s a totally foreign concept and might be tough to grasp. That’s one thing we’re talking about here. It took me years to really grasp the concept of the closed communion. I’m still not a fan, but I get it.

I am not sure if you are addressing me here or you are just trying to keep stressing your point. Like I already stated, I understand there are hurt feelings, but just because your feelings are hurt doesn’t mean I should break the rules for you.

I’ve read on here that it needs to be a two way street a couple of times…but it’s always the Evangelical that “needs to understand”.

Yes it is a two way street and the one that needs to understand is the one that is a visitor to the street. I don’t want to change the topic of the thread but I would like to give an example to get your opinion. Now I am not saying this is your church but would like your opinion on this situation. If I decided to leave my Catholic faith and join a local Evangelical church in town, I would be required to confess Jesus as my personal lord and savior and be Baptized as an adult in front of the church community before I would be accepted into the church. Well I am Catholic so Jesus is my personal lord and savior and I was Baptized at the age of 8 days old. So do you think in this situation the Evangelical church should “need to understand” that I shouldn’t have to do it again. I don’t think they should because I would be on their street and need to follow their rules.

If it’s supposed to be a two way street, I would expect to have seen a few more replies of “I see now, and understand where you are coming from. That doesn’t change how the Eucharist is viewed in the Catholic Church, but now understand a little be more about where my friends, co-workers, etc… are coming from and can possibly better explain or help them at communion time” rather than replies justifying the closed communion I’ve said I get probably half a dozen times.

I do understand a little bit more from your explanation.  Thank you for that.  But quite honestly I do not know where to go from here.  I am a business man and if I don't follow the rules of my business I am doomed for failure.  The majority of the time my mind only sees a right way and a wrong way.  But I am always open to suggestion.  If you would be willing to tell me **exactly** what I should say I will remember it for the future.  But please don't respond like a previous poster did when I asked this same question.

1. Most important: you must love them. First Corinthians 13:1 is key-- if you have not love you are nothing but sounding brass.
2. Try to understand them and approach their views respectfully. That doesn’t mean you have to agree with them, but you must be respectful and loving. Seek first to listen, then to speak.
3. When you get to the actual explaining, bring your Good to the table and leave insults in the trash.
4. Share with the other person how you believe that the Eucharist is literally the body of Christ and what receiving it means. You want to make your explanation charitable, bringing your Good, and clearly showing the distinction between the different views.

I don’t mean to be disrespectful to this poster but how do these generic instructions help. What do they mean by love, respect, understanding, charitable. These words have different definitions to different people. If they give no examples how do I know what they mean.

Would I need more of a reason? No, but an explanation would be nice and even then I wouldn’t be able to say I understand…

I think you summed it all up here when you stated “even then I wouldn’t be able to say I understand”. Don’t mean to be disrespectful but Wow talk about entitlement. No explanation would be good enough for you? Talk about wanting what I want and anyone that is telling me no is either a hurtful person or being judgemental. I said it once and I will say it again. Love needs to be a 2 way street and sometimes we need to lovingly accept the differences and not hold onto our grudges.

I guess you can ignore my request because you already let it be known that not even you could come up with an explanation that you could understand.

That’s basically making their point. The RCC, in the eye’s of the non-Catholic, unfailrly judges them as a 2nd rate Christian and their faith really doesn’t count. So basically, back to your first point, those of us who aren’t Catholic (including in mixed marriages) shouldn’t be attending Mass in the first place because we’re incomplete Christians and always will be?

I am sorry you feel this way. However, the only one that could make you feel like a 2nd rate Christian is you. I sure hope I never unfairly judge someone to be a 2nd rate Christian. Quite honestly at this point in time the only 2nd rate Christian I know is probably ME. Thank God for Purgatory

 

[JonNC]

I’m not talking about official doctrine but rather what the average Lutheran believes. Polls have shown that even many Catholics do not believe that the bread and the wine are the body and blood of Jesus:

traditio.com/tradlib/polls.txt

So who knows whether most Lutherans do better at knowing what their denomination teaches.

Do you agree that belief in the real presence is a doctrine of the Church? Here’s the point: when you said that many Lutherans believe in the real presence, it sounded like you meant it was an option. Hope you understand that I wanted to deflect any misconception.

Jon

 

[JonNC]

Out of interest, would Lutherans give communion to a non-Lutheran (say an Anglican) who believed in the real presence if there was no Anglican church nearby?

Depends on circumstances. Generally, in the LCMS, no. But considerations such as availability of an Anglican parish, the belief of the Anglican involved, etc. I have seen Anglicans communed.

Jon

 

[GKC]

Depends on circumstances. Generally, in the LCMS, no. But considerations such as availability of an Anglican parish, the belief of the Anglican involved, etc. I have seen Anglicans communed.

Jon

I’ve received from a traditional Swedish Lutheran bishop, who con-celebrated at our parish.

 

[ComplineSanFran]

Out of interest, would Lutherans give communion to a non-Lutheran (say an Anglican) who believed in the real presence if there was no Anglican church nearby?

Regarding the ELCA, it is in full communion with TEC. There are a number of churches where they are a mix of Episcopalians and Lutherans and clergy are either one or the other. It is becoming more common as congregations are getting smaller.

 

[TC3033]

I am not sure if you are addressing me here or you are just trying to keep stressing your point. Like I already stated, I understand there are hurt feelings, but just because your feelings are hurt doesn’t mean I should break the rules for you.

And never once have is said you should.

Yes it is a two way street and the one that needs to understand is the one that is a visitor to the street. I don’t want to change the topic of the thread but I would like to give an example to get your opinion. Now I am not saying this is your church but would like your opinion on this situation. If I decided to leave my Catholic faith and join a local Evangelical church in town, I would be required to confess Jesus as my personal lord and savior and be Baptized as an adult in front of the church community before I would be accepted into the church. Well I am Catholic so Jesus is my personal lord and savior and I was Baptized at the age of 8 days old. So do you think in this situation the Evangelical church should “need to understand” that I shouldn’t have to do it again. I don’t think they should because I would be on their street and need to follow their rules.

At my church you wouldn’t, so don’t know what you want me to tell you. Honestly, it sounds like you want me to defend a position I have never taken.

I do understand a little bit more from your explanation. Thank you for that. But quite honestly I do not know where to go from here. I am a business man and if I don’t follow the rules of my business I am doomed for failure. The majority of the time my mind only sees a right way and a wrong way. But I am always open to suggestion. If you would be willing to tell me exactly what I should say I will remember it for the future. But please don’t respond like a previous poster did when I asked this same question.

All you can do is tell the truth and explain it as compassionately as possible. From there it’s up to the person. All I’m saying is don’t expect them to be…oh okey dokey, my entire upbringing is false, thanks for pointing that out.

I think you summed it all up here when you stated “even then I wouldn’t be able to say I understand”. Don’t mean to be disrespectful but Wow talk about entitlement. No explanation would be good enough for you? Talk about wanting what I want and anyone that is telling me no is either a hurtful person or being judgemental. I said it once and I will say it again. Love needs to be a 2 way street and sometimes we need to lovingly accept the differences and not hold onto our grudges.

I guess you can ignore my request because you already let it be known that not even you could come up with an explanation that you could understand.

You cay “don’t mean to be disrespectful” (because we all know that when someone says that, that basically exactly what they mean) and spin it as entitlement if you want. That still doesn’t change my position that you’re trying to tell someone their belief/belief system is some how wrong. It can be a little bit of entitlement, but not in the context you’re using. The Evangelical believes they have a spot at the Lord’s table, and if not properly “prepared” let’s say…it can be quite the shock when they’re told…“no, honestly you’re really not” even though that’s not necessarily what the Catholic Church means.

I am sorry you feel this way. However, the only one that could make you feel like a 2nd rate Christian is you. I sure hope I never unfairly judge someone to be a 2nd rate Christian. Quite honestly at this point in time the only 2nd rate Christian I know is probably ME. Thank God for Purgatory

I don’t think that I said that I actually feel this way, more a perception that I get (more and more from here). And that’s really a perception an Evangelical can get when, like I said above, they believe that being denied communion is denying them at the Lord’s table…basically telling them they aren’t “Christian Enough”.

Again, I’m not arguing for or against. I’m just trying to explain the thought process, feelings, interpretation from the other foot. I’m not saying Evangelicals are right for getting upset or thinking “they deserve” communion in the Catholic Church. I’m just trying to bring their perspective to the thread that I wish the OP would come back to.

 

[Gorgias]

Of course they do. Why, because they don’t know that Catholics aren’t supposed to. I didn’t know that until I started posting here.

Fair enough. But, this implies that evangelicals are ‘surprised’ when they discover that they are not being invited to receive the Eucharist at Catholic liturgies… right? After all, if they already know that it’s a “closed communion” situation vis-a-vis the Catholic Church, then they should be surprised when Catholics receive at their liturgies… shouldn’t they?

 

[Memaw]

That isn’t what you said. You said:

"The Catholic Church knows and teaches exactly what Jesus Christ said our Holy Communion would be. This IS MY Body, This IS MY Blood. Others do NOT believe that."

And this is plain false. The first statement is false, too, from our perspective, but it is what your communion teaches, so you do well to express it.

Jon

Believing in something and making it true is not the same thing. You do not believe the same way we do in the TRUE Presence, as we believe that Apostolic Succession and the Sacrament of Holy Orders is absolutely necessary for Transubstantiation to take place. There have been many Eucharistic Miracles in the Sacred Hosts. If you ever get to Italy you might go see the Miracle of Lanciano. God Bless, Memaw.

 

[MT1926]

And never once have is said you should.

That is fine, but that was the response you tagged directly to my post. Therefor since you did not say as I said to you, “Now I am not saying this is your church but would like your opinion on this situation.” How am I suppose to know your comment wasn’t directed at me? Which is the reason I was confused and asked.

At my church you wouldn’t, so don’t know what you want me to tell you. Honestly, it sounds like you want me to defend a position I have never taken.

That’s great I am glad to see your church does infant Baptism as well. However, as I stated in my post “**Now I am not saying this is your church but would like your opinion on this situation.” ** I didn’t want your defense, I wanted your opinion on a similar situation that occurred in a local Evangelical church my son joined. They all cursed me and I was even told I was going to Hell when I wouldn’t attend his “second Baptism”, cause the Catholic one didn’t count therefore we weren’t Christian yet.

All you can do is tell the truth and explain it as compassionately as possible. From there it’s up to the person. All I’m saying is don’t expect them to be…oh okey dokey, my entire upbringing is false, thanks for pointing that out.

Sorry just like the first poster, still no help. You are basically saying even if I tell the truth, that we “do not believe the same thing” and lovingly say this, no matter what you will take that to mean we think your upbringing is false. Because once again what good is the truth if we both don’t hold the same meaning of the what that truth is. You need to tell me how you would say it if the positions were reversed. Because from your response all I get is you are telling me this is the way the person is going to take my explanation. So why should I try to explain in it the first place?

You cay “don’t mean to be disrespectful” (because we all know that when someone says that, that basically exactly what they mean) and spin it as entitlement if you want. That still doesn’t change my position that you’re trying to tell someone their belief/belief system is some how wrong. It can be a little bit of entitlement, but not in the context you’re using. The Evangelical believes they have a spot at the Lord’s table, and if not properly “prepared” let’s say…it can be quite the shock when they’re told…“no, honestly you’re really not” even though that’s not necessarily what the Catholic Church means.

Never said mine was right and theirs was wrong, I said it was not the same. If you look back on my post I actually never even used Biblical reasoning, I used common sense. You are in someone else’s house you follow their rules, period. It is you who stated you would not accept any explanation given. Therefore it isn’t the Catholic’s problem of not accepting the Evangelical, the problem lies with the Evangelical not accepting the explanation.

I don’t think that I said that I actually feel this way, more a perception that I get (more and more from here). And that’s really a perception an Evangelical can get when, like I said above, they believe that being denied communion is denying them at the Lord’s table…basically telling them they aren’t “Christian Enough”.

Well, I am sorry you are getting that perception. Not really sure how this can change. I know this excuse doesn’t make it right, but you are on a Catholic website, that was basically set up to defend the attacks against the Catholic Church. I would guess the majority of the Catholics are here because they were attacked by fellow Christians. I don’t think I would be here today if it wasn’t for the parents of my sons best friend. We prayed with them at the school for 12 years until they finally accomplished their goal of pulling my son out of the Catholic Church. The only explanation they gave was they believed all Catholics weren’t Christian and were going to Hell. Sure would have been nice if they gave me a heads up 12 years earlier. Anyway, yes sometimes it can get out of hand on here, and we do need to try to be more charitable. I will keep an eye of my posts, I am pretty sure I have never said someone isn’t “Christian Enough” I will do my best not to do that in the future.

Again, I’m not arguing for or against. I’m just trying to explain the thought process, feelings, interpretation from the other foot. I’m not saying Evangelicals are right for getting upset or thinking “they deserve” communion in the Catholic Church. I’m just trying to bring their perspective to the thread that I wish the OP would come back to.

Well as I said I appreciate the perspective, but a solution would be better. Personally I have never been in this type of situation. Every non Catholic family member that I have ever attended mass with never even asked, I think they already new. The only person to ever ask was while I was in college, he never questioned my response, and continued to go to mass with me.

 

[TC3033]

I wanted your opinion on a similar situation that occurred in a local Evangelical church my son joined. They all cursed me and I was even told I was going to Hell when I wouldn’t attend his “second Baptism”, cause the Catholic one didn’t count therefore we weren’t Christian yet.

My opinion is that’s bogus and that’s an outlier of a Church that would actually tell someone that and IMHO is a poor representation of the majority.

Sorry just like the first poster, still no help. You are basically saying even if I tell the truth, that we “do not believe the same thing” and lovingly say this, no matter what you will take that to mean we think your upbringing is false. Because once again what good is the truth if we both don’t hold the same meaning of the what that truth is. You need to tell me how you would say it if the positions were reversed. Because from your response all I get is you are telling me this is the way the person is going to take my explanation. So why should I try to explain in it the first place?

There may be nothing that you can tell someone where their feelz aren’t going to get hurt. You did the same thing to me in this thread. I’ve tried to explain it from a role reversal standpoint already in the thread, a couple time. I gave an explanation and used the Thanksgiving dinner and an example. You didn’t accept that explanation and tried to spin it from a different angle, when my first explanation was exactly how the Evangelical sees it.

Never said mine was right and theirs was wrong, I said it was not the same. If you look back on my post I actually never even used Biblical reasoning, I used common sense. You are in someone else’s house you follow their rules, period. It is you who stated you would not accept any explanation given. Therefore it isn’t the Catholic’s problem of not accepting the Evangelical, the problem lies with the Evangelical not accepting the explanation.

You’re 100% correct. I’ve never said it’s the Catholics problem. I’ve just said that a little compassion and understanding your friend’s, spouse’s, loved one’s, etc… background and beliefs goes a long way. Just because someone doesn’t accept the premise of a practice, doesn’t mean they won’t respect it.

Well, I am sorry you are getting that perception. Not really sure how this can change. I know this excuse doesn’t make it right, but you are on a Catholic website, that was basically set up to defend the attacks against the Catholic Church. I would guess the majority of the Catholics are here because they were attacked by fellow Christians. I don’t think I would be here today if it wasn’t for the parents of my sons best friend. We prayed with them at the school for 12 years until they finally accomplished their goal of pulling my son out of the Catholic Church. The only explanation they gave was they believed all Catholics weren’t Christian and were going to Hell. Sure would have been nice if they gave me a heads up 12 years earlier. Anyway, yes sometimes it can get out of hand on here, and we do need to try to be more charitable. I will keep an eye of my posts, I am pretty sure I have never said someone isn’t “Christian Enough” I will do my best not to do that in the future.

Sorry to hear about what happened with your son. I wasn’t aware this forum was here for Catholics to defend anything. I came here to learn a little, and maybe bring another perspective and enjoy good discussion.

Well as I said I appreciate the perspective, but a solution would be better. Personally I have never been in this type of situation. Every non Catholic family member that I have ever attended mass with never even asked, I think they already new. The only person to ever ask was while I was in college, he never questioned my response, and continued to go to mass with me.

IDK if there will ever really be much of solution, overall, as the situation is extremely personal. The blessing in lieu has probably helped with some, but IDK. I never asked when I went to Mass either, but that’s because at a young age once I was told I couldn’t ONLY because I wasn’t Catholic and that basically that’s because we don’t count.

I had a pretty rough introduction with the Catholic Church on multiple occasions (much like it sounds as though you had a pretty tough introduction to Evangelical/Non-Denom), so really I think I understand where you’re coming from overall…

 

[TC3033]

Fair enough. But, this implies that evangelicals are ‘surprised’ when they discover that they are not being invited to receive the Eucharist at Catholic liturgies… right? After all, if they already know that it’s a “closed communion” situation vis-a-vis the Catholic Church, then they should be surprised when Catholics receive at their liturgies… shouldn’t they?

IDK, I wasn’t surprised, honestly didn’t even give a first though let alone a second.

 

[rcwitness]

Hey guys. So my boyfriend of one year is a Nondenominational Evangelical Free Christian, and he feels very discriminated against by the Catholic Church because he isn’t allowed to receive Communion.

He is allowed to receive Communion if He believes the Christian faith regarding His Eucharist. Communion is far from an “only me and Jesus” thing.

How do I explain to him in a gentle way why he can’t, and convince him he isn’t being “discriminated against”? Nothing I’ve tried has worked.

I’m sure you will be gentle no mater what. But the reality is that we believe receiving the Lord’s Supper while openly or secretly rejecting what the Church Teaches is profanity the Body and Blood of our Savior. We are called to one mind, one judgment and one Loaf. We are not a wide gate for everyone to interpret in their own separate ways. His body and blood cannot be manipulated, twisted or interpretated, like Scripture. It is Him.

The fact that we believe the Eucharist is the actual body and blood of Christ is irrelevant to him. He thinks that he should be allowed to receive because he’s a Christian. I don’t know what to do or say anymore…

That sounds like a proud and entitled attitude. I suggest letting him make the decission, and giving your anxiety over to Jesus. His Eucharist is a stumbling block to the carnal person.