Non Catholic Interpretation of Matthew 16:18-19

[1beleevr]

Are you a Seventh Day Adventist with that Saturday remark? If so, this thread is NOT the place to discuss it. The thread “Info on SDA” discusses it.

Also, it seem like you have mis-read and mis-understood my post on the Subject of Purgatory. You are making a mountain out of a mole hill and are building straw men and sand castles.

Whether or not the Jews believe in Jesus is besides the point. This “holding place” has been and still is part of Jewish theology and belief which is far older than Christianity. The Jews hold nothing sacred unless it was given by God, and it is in their scripture, which you reject.

Keep in mind that Jesus was a Jew. He was neither Catholic, Orthodox, or Protestant. He kept and honored many Jewish traditions which have been passed on to and appear in Christianity. Our origin is Jewish.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

No, I am not SDA; and I did not totally misunderstand your post on purgatory. You were perfectly clear, it’s just that I don’t agree with it, that’s al! And I threw in the part about the Sabbath, because you affix yourself to Jewish customs, which may or may not have died on the Cross as well, beings as they were instituted in the Old Covenant! And why is the remark about the Jews not believing in Jesus so far off base? Not being in Christ, or beliving in Him would render these souls in the holding place hopelessly lost and disconnected!

 

[1beleevr]

1beleevr;6992701:

Actually, if you read my post, I did not mention praying for the dead, in conjunction with 1 Cor 3:13-15, I was saying that this is the verse you guys use to justify purgatory! Sheeeeeeeeeeeeeeesh!

They remarked, that the words quoted from the book of Maccabees, and our Saviour’s words, can only prove that some sins will be forgiven after death; but whether by means of punishment by fire, or by other means, nothing was known for certain. Besides, what has forgiveness of sins to do with punishment by fire and tortures? Only one of these two things can happen: either punishment or forgiveness, and not both at once."

Another post that wasted time and space

 

[1beleevr]

1beleevr took the conversation there. If you have a problem with it - talk to him . . .

In response to a catholic poster, of course

 

[1beleevr]

You know something – my heart really goes out to you. Your ignorance of Christianity stems from your ignorance of our Jewish roots.

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**The Jews believe in Sheol **– a place of darkness which is a holding place where the wicked AND the righteous go.

---

**As for the reunion **of our body and soul – they will be united in glory in at the end of time.

Calling someone ignorant, is a way of saying,"You’re ignorant, because you don’t believe things our way! And while I MAY be able to lend credence to SOME of the catholic interpretationsof scriptures(still waiting for a plausible interpretaton of 1John 1:9), the one thing that just completely astounds me, is; that the very same Spirit that spoke to Moses, led the Israelites through the desert, and led and protected David,lives in me today! Incredible; but true! 1John 4:4, John 14, John 14:23:thumbsup:

 

[1beleevr]

If the proof is the Word of God,then I am curious as to where Jesus’ gave mere mortals the authority to go found their own churches teaching conflicting things? That is what MAN says,not Jesus. I am still waiting for that importance piece of information,so I too can be a Protestant and start my own church.

Equally baffling is how people believe that mere mortal men(priests today) can forgive sins

 

[PRmerger]

Equally baffling is how people believe that mere mortal men(priests today) can forgive sins

You know what, 1beleevr? Even YOU can forgive sins. In fact, you are COMMANDED to forgive sins.

And forgive us our debts,** as we forgive our debtors. **–Matt 6

 

[1beleevr]

Hello, there, friend! I am heartened to see that you and Brother Dokimas are still here chatting with us Catholic folks! You are certainly getting healthy doses of the Catholic understanding by hanging around here.

(I would love to be in on a real-life conversation either of you have with some average Clueless-Catholic-in-the-Pews. I am certain that you both know more about our faith than the Clueless-Joe-Catholics. How fun it would be to hear you say to them, “No, Sir, that is actually NOT what your church teaches. Your church teaches _____ and you ought to be ashamed that I, a non-Catholic, know more about your faith than you do!”)

Yep. And so did the first century Catholics, and 3rd century Catholics and 15th century Catholics and…

I dunno. Maybe the answer is no?

God has given us many commandments. Many of them include the word “remember” in it.

Mark 14:72​

Immediately a rooster crowed a second time. And Peter remembered how Jesus had made the remark to him, “Before a rooster crows twice, you will deny Me three times.” And he began to weep.
Mark 14:71-72 (in Context) Mark 14 (Whole Chapter)

Luke 1:72​

To show mercy toward our fathers, And to remember His holy covenant,
Luke 1:71-73 (in Context) Luke 1 (Whole Chapter)

Luke 16:25​

"But Abraham said, 'Child, remember that during your life you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus bad things; but now he is being comforted here, and you are in agony.
Luke 16:24-26 (in Context) Luke 16 (Whole Chapter)

Luke 17:32​

" Remember Lot’s wife.
Luke 17:31-33 (in Context) Luke 17 (Whole Chapter)

Luke 22:61​

The Lord turned and looked at Peter And Peter remembered the word of the Lord, how He had told him, " Before a rooster crows today, you will deny Me three times."
Luke 22:60-62 (in Context) Luke 22 (Whole Chapter)

Luke 23:42​

And he was saying, “Jesus, remember me when You come in Your kingdom!”
Luke 23:41-43 (in Context) Luke 23 (Whole Chapter)

Luke 24:6​

"He is not here, but He has risen Remember how He spoke to you while He was still in Galilee,
Luke 24:5-7 (in Context) Luke 24 (Whole Chapter)

Luke 24:8​

And they remembered His words,
Luke 24:7-9 (in Context) Luke 24 (Whole Chapter)

John 2:17​

His disciples remembered that it was written, " ZEAL FOR YOUR HOUSE WILL CONSUME ME."
John 2:16-18 (in Context) John 2 (Whole Chapter)

John 2:22​

So when He was raised from the dead, His disciples remembered that He said this; and they believed the Scripture and the word which Jesus had spoken.
John 2:21-23 (in Context) John 2 (Whole Chapter)

John 12:16​

These things His disciples did not understand at the first; but when Jesus was glorified, then they remembered that these things were written of Him, and that they had done these things to Him.
John 12:15-17 (in Context) John 12 (Whole Chapter)

John 15:20​

"Remember the word that I said to you, ’ A slave is not greater than his master ’ If they persecuted Me, they will also persecute you; if they kept My word, they will keep yours also.

Kinda hard to chase off hard core, God faring, Jesus loving believers! And let me tell you; I have had some hair-raising live conversations with cathoics, and whew; I was surprised at how much they curseI meant the Ten Commandments, and I was wondering how anybody could call Saturday he Sabbath, if days of the week were not established in Genesis! Godd "taling to you again!

 

[1beleevr]

You know what, 1beleevr? Even YOU can forgive sins. In fact, you are COMMANDED to forgive sins.

And forgive us our debts,** as we forgive our debtors. **–Matt 6

I can only forgive someone who has hurt me! God forgives sin against Himself and others; with the exception of blaspheming the Holy Spirit!

 

[Nicea325]

Calling someone ignorant, is a way of saying,"You’re ignorant, because you don’t believe things our way! And while I MAY be able to lend credence to SOME of the catholic interpretationsof scriptures(still waiting for a plausible interpretaton of 1John 1:9), the one thing that just completely astounds me, is; that the very same Spirit that spoke to Moses, led the Israelites through the desert, and led and protected David,lives in me today! Incredible; but true! 1John 4:4, John 14, John 14:23:thumbsup:

Ah no 1beeleevr,calling someone ignorant is not a way of telling one:

*"You’re ignorant, because you don’t believe things our way! *

elvisman clearly showed you it is Jesus’ way and you simply refuse to accept it and abide to a novelty.

BTW: I noticed you still have not answered my question regarding the origins of the doctrine of Purgatory?

Where are the historical records of the protests,if it was pulled out of the clerical hat?

 

[1beleevr]

Well, I’m not sure what your point is here. In my post I say “word of God” What you say I say is “Word of God”. You can see this for yourself in the part of the post which you yourself posted. Here it is again.

So, clearly I was refering to the word of God or scripture. Not the Word made flesh or Jesus Jn.1:14. So, I can only assume that this is a diversion on your part from what my original intention was.

Ya, that’s not at all what he is saying. Here it is in context.

1Jn.4
2Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
3And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
4Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.
5They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them.
6We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

John here is talking about the difference between those that are of God and the antichrist
He says v.2 “Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:” and in verse 6 he says "We are of God: (meaning all that confess that Christ is come in the flesh) he that knoweth God heareth us;(again the “us” refers to “Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh”) he that is not of God heareth not us. Again the “us” refers to “Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh” This is not some reference to bishops, or priests, or some church magestarium, but to **all **people that confess faith in Jesus Christ.

1 Timothy 3:15
But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.

This doesn’t say anything about the CC. And if you would, explain to me how “pillar and ground of the truth” is not refering to God and is refering to the church

Well, we all know that he Word of God is Jesus!

 

[Nicea325]

Equally baffling is how people believe that mere mortal men(priests today) can forgive sins

And more bafffling are those who fail to ACCEPT what Jesus’ taught and rather accept the novel teachings of men who came centuries after Christ…

 

[1beleevr]

Ah no 1beeleevr,calling someone ignorant is not a way of telling one:

*"You’re ignorant, because you don’t believe things our way! *

elvisman clearly showed you it is Jesus’ way and you simply refuse to accept it and abide to a novelty.

BTW: I noticed you still have not answered my question regarding the origins of the doctrine of Purgatory?

Where are the historical records of the protests,if it was pulled out of the clerical hat?

And anyone who believes that is ignorant themselves! See, you admitted that because I didn’t agree/accept his xplanation that I am ignorant! And yes, I believe that it is mostly non catholics who do not believe in purgatory! We are aware that nothing impure will enter Heaven; just not exactly sure How God will complete our righteousness!

 

[1beleevr]

And more bafffling are those who fail to ACCEPT what Jesus’ taught and rather accept the novel teachings of men who came centuries after Christ…

Or perhaps those who somehow found the authority to beatify people and call a mortal man holy father! You see, you can interpret scripture to suit your own desires or beliefs!

 

[Nicea325]

1 Timothy 3:15
But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.

This doesn’t say anything about the CC. And if you would, explain to me how “pillar and ground of the truth” is not refering to God and is refering to the church

And it is also doesn’t say anythig about the SDA,Baptist,Lutheran,Mormon,Assemby of God,Southern Baptist,Methodist,etc,etc,etc,etc X 10,000

Scripture was not written to mention every man-made church,but only ONE: Jesus Christ Church which was founded as a universal (catholic) church,which you should know if you read scripture all the time.

So you mean God and His church are two entities competing for the Truth? That is a false premise.

 

[Nicea325]

And anyone who believes that is ignorant themselves! See, you admitted that because I didn’t agree/accept his xplanation that I am ignorant! And yes, I believe that it is mostly non catholics who do not believe in purgatory! We are aware that nothing impure will enter Heaven; just not exactly sure How God will complete our righteousness!

Who is ignorant? Those who accept the historical roots of Purgatory going back to the Jews? Or those who REFUSE to accept historical facts because their pride and deep embedded biased views simply will not allow it?

And as stated,if you actually had a basic understanding of bibical history,you would know very well that the Book of Maccabees were excluded after the Protestant Reformation;hence the root of disblief in regards to Purgatory.

So…can you show me the historical records of the protests from the early Christians against the doctrine of Purgatory,since it was a novel and false doctrine?

 

[PRmerger]

I can only forgive someone who has hurt me! God forgives sin against Himself and others; with the exception of blaspheming the Holy Spirit!

Fair enough. That’s exactly what the Pharisees said, though, eh? “Only God can forgive sins!”

At any rate, all things are possible with God and the fact that Moses parted the Red Sea clearly was not of his own power. He was given that power through God. Moses was able to control the battle victory of the Israelites when he held his hands up–that power was not his own, yes?

The apostles were able to heal and cast out demons–yet only God can heal and cast out demons, right?

 

[PRmerger]

Kinda hard to chase off hard core, God faring, Jesus loving believers! And let me tell you; I have had some hair-raising live conversations with cathoics, and whew; I was surprised at how much they curse

Oh, yes, some Catholics are the worst sinners!

I wonder if anyone has done any research about how many professed hard-core, God-loving Christians are in prison for drinking and carousing and generalized sinful living?

I’m pretty sure Catholics do not have the market on cursing and sinful behavior. In fact, I think there’s fewer Catholics in prison than other Christians!

 

[1beleevr]

Well, I’m not sure what your point is here. In my post I say “word of God” What you say I say is “Word of God”. You can see this for yourself in the part of the post which you yourself posted. Here it is again.

So, clearly I was refering to the word of God or scripture. Not the Word made flesh or Jesus Jn.1:14. So, I can only assume that this is a diversion on your part from what my original intention was.

Ya, that’s not at all what he is saying. Here it is in context.

1Jn.4
2Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
3And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
4Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.
5They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them.
6We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

John here is talking about the difference between those that are of God and the antichrist
He says v.2 “Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:” and in verse 6 he says "We are of God: (meaning all that confess that Christ is come in the flesh) he that knoweth God heareth us;(again the “us” refers to “Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh”) he that is not of God heareth not us. Again the “us” refers to “Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh” This is not some reference to bishops, or priests, or some church magestarium, but to **all **people that confess faith in Jesus Christ.

1 Timothy 3:15
But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.

This doesn’t say anything about the CC. And if you would, explain to me how “pillar and ground of the truth” is not refering to God and is refering to the church

I couldn’t find the catholic church in 1 Timothy 3:15, either!

 

[1beleevr]

Who is ignorant? Those who accept the historical roots of Purgatory going back to the Jews? Or those who REFUSE to accept historical facts because their pride and deep embedded biased views simply will not allow it?

And as stated,if you actually had a basic understanding of bibical history,you would know very well that the Book of Maccabees were excluded after the Protestant Reformation;hence the root of disblief in regards to Purgatory.

So…can you show me the historical records of the protests from the early Christians against the doctrine of Purgatory,since it was a novel and false doctrine?

Well, of course I can’t show historical records of protests against purgatory catholics took a Jewish idea,and called it purgatory. So how do we know that the Jews were correct? What good does it do an Orthodox Jewish soul to wait in a holding place, when it does not believe in Jesus; as the Messiah? John 14:6.So, bottom line, is I like countless others, do not believe in purgatory, either as a place, or a state of being!

 

[elvisman]

Calling someone ignorant, is a way of saying,"You’re ignorant, because you don’t believe things our way! And while I MAY be able to lend credence to SOME of the catholic interpretationsof scriptures(still waiting for a plausible interpretaton of 1John 1:9), the one thing that just completely astounds me, is; that the very same Spirit that spoke to Moses, led the Israelites through the desert, and led and protected David,lives in me today! Incredible; but true! 1John 4:4, John 14, John 14:23:thumbsup:

**Like I told Doki - your ignorance of certain issues is reflected in the things you say. **You don’t seem to have a grasp of our Jewish roots and that’s why you say the things you do.

**As for 1 John 1:9 - you just don’****t get it. In an earlier post - I challenged you to show me where it says we are NOT to go to a priest. You take ONE passage and build an entire doctrine around it, while ignoring ALL of the others that support going to a priest (**Matt. 16:19, 18:18 and John 20:23, ****2 Cor. 5:18-20, 2 Cor. 2:10).

***Your *problem is that you don’t read the Scriptures in context - you glean only what you want to glean. THAT, my friend is Cafeteria Christianity. **

The same Spirit that spoke to Moses, led the Israelites through the desert, and led and protected David is calling you home, my friend . . .