Non-Catholic religions and abortion

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estesbob said:
You are the one who claims that human life deserves no protection unitl it reaches a stage of develpment YOU find acceptable.
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you just imagined that up, buddy. i never said that.
estesbob said:
you have offered no scientific support for why a child at 90 days gestation can be killed but one at 91 days can not.
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you are too confused. i never made that claim. please review my point again.
 
AgnosTheist said:
you asked me how i define the human mind, i wanted to hear yours first, but oh well:

The Human Mind collectively refers to the aspects of intellect and consciousness manifested as combinations of thought, perception, memory, emotion, will and imagination. It is the stream of consciousness.

By this definition all children under the age of one should be killed.

Now how do YOU define ‘human mind’?
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I have never understood how one human being may have the right to kill another human being. It is just mind boggling. A mother has absolutely no right to kill her child, no matter what the situation would be. PERIOD.

Your whole idea that the unborn are not human goes against common sense. What else would they be if not human? They are not dogs or cats, and even if they were would that give you the right to ripe their limbs off one by one? It is just plain sick.

You also stated that the soul doesn’t enter the body until their mind is fully there (WHAT EVER THAT MEANS :rolleyes: ). Than what happens to all of our elderly or terminally ill? Have you ever spoken to someone with alzheimer’s? Since you seem to only deem person hood to those who can hold a memory, they are out.

I find those who use such idiotocracy to deem person hood so infuriating.
 
ncgolf said:
This only details known development of the brain and nuerlogical function. It makes no mention of deciding whether a person exists or does not. It only states the obvious, well known fact that an embryo has an undeveloped nervous system and over time it develops.
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*The first 8 weeks after implantation are termed the embryonic period. It is during this time that the organs, systems and tissues of the future being are induced, differentiated, and put into place. The remaining 30-40 weeks of gestation are devoted to growth, development and refinement of these organs, systems and tissues. *

look, the first 56 days is merely devoted to the differentiation, induction and placement of tissues. Its is only in the last 30-40 weeks that everything is fully functional which only needs growth, development and refinement. thats why very premature babies never survive.
ncgolf said:
Where did you come up with you can abort this embryo? This study makes no mention of this. Any basic college biology textbook has this information. Where does this embryo not being a person come from … what studies support that notion?
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c’mon show me a counter evidence that a 90 day old embryo is already capable of reason, memory and/or emotion. just do it.
 
AgnosTheist said:
c’mon show me a counter evidence that a 90 day old embryo is already capable of reason, memory and/or emotion. just do it.
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C’mom show me ANY evidence that a 90 day old embryo isn’t already capable of reason, memory and/or emotion. Just try it!
 
AgnosTheist said:
*The first 8 weeks after implantation are termed the embryonic period. It is during this time that the organs, systems and tissues of the future being are induced, differentiated, and put into place. The remaining 30-40 weeks of gestation are devoted to growth, development and refinement of these organs, systems and tissues. *

look, the first 56 days is merely devoted to the differentiation, induction and placement of tissues. Its is only in the last 30-40 weeks that everything is fully functional which only needs growth, development and refinement. thats why very premature babies never survive.

c’mon show me a counter evidence that a 90 day old embryo is already capable of reason, memory and/or emotion. just do it.
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Do you really think growth and development stops at birth? Even the article you linked states that the brain continues to develop for at least another 2 years after birth. Maybe your cut off date for abortion should be then.

We aren’t defining personhood by your criteria. It doesn’t matter whether a developing baby in utero can reason, have memory, etc. so there is no need for us to prove it. You might find this article interesting. Here’s an excerpt:
Either the fetus is a person, or not; and either we know what it is, or not. Thus there are four and only four possibilities:
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that it is not a person and we know that,
that it is a person and we know that,
that it is a person but we do not know that, and
that it is not a person and we do not know that.
Now what is abortion in each of these four cases?
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In case (1), abortion is perfectly permissible. We do no wrong if we kill what is not a person and we know it is not a person—e.g., if we fry a fish. But no one has ever proved with certainty that a fetus is not a person. If there exists anywhere such a proof, please show it to me and Ishall convert to pro-choice on the spot if I cannot refute it.
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If we do not have case (1) we have either (2) or (3) or (4). What is abortion in each of these cases? It is either murder, or manslaughter, or criminal negligence.
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In case (2), where the fetus is a person and we know that, abortion is murder. For killing an innocent person knowing it is an innocent person ismurder.
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In case (3), abortion is manslaughter, for it is killing an innocent person not knowing and intending the full, deliberate extent of murder. It is like driving over a man-shaped overcoat in the street, which may be a drunk or may only be an old coat. It is like shooting at a sudden movement in a bush which may be your hunting companion or may be only a pheasant. It is like fumigating an apartment building with a highly toxic chemical not knowing whether everyone is safely evacuated. If the victim is a person you have committed manslaughter. And if not?
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Even in case (4), even if abortion kills what is not in fact a person, but the killer does not know for sure that it is not a person, we have criminal negligence, as in the above three cases if there happened to be no man in the coat, the bush, or the building but the driver, the hunter, or the fumigator did not know that, and nevertheless drove, shot or fumigated. Such negligence is instinctively and universally condemned by all reasonable individuals and societies as personally immoral and socially criminal; and cases (2) and (3), murder and manslaughter, are of course condemned even more strongly. We do not argue politely over whether such behavior is right or wrong. We wholeheartedly condemn it, even when we do not know whether there is a person there, because the killer did not know that a person was not there. Why do we not do the same with abortion?
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peterkreeft.com/topics-more/personhood.htm
 
AgnosTheist said:
My point: it is morally acceptable to do so up until the first 90 days since scientifically the embryo is not yet a human being during that period.
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Scientifically is an interesting term to use, since scientifically speaking, there is no consensus as to when a human being actually becomes a human being. Sociologically speaking, it is a process that begins at birth. Self awareness, identifying as “I”, is a psychological process that also begins at birth. What is happening before birth, is a part of the process of being human.

An embryo may have a nervous system and a brain, but it is not able to socialize or have experiences that form its “pysch”, its sense of self, its conscience. Even if by some miracle it could live outside its mother at such an early stage, its brain is not formed enough to socialize or form a conscience.

The nature of an embryo does not change at one arbitrary point. That it has a nervous system or brain does not change the nature of what it is.
 
st_lucy said:
C’mom show me ANY evidence that a 90 day old embryo isn’t already capable of reason, memory and/or emotion. Just try it!
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the link. read it up. now its your turn. show me any scientific counter evidence.
 
AgnosTheist said:
vegetative state is a case to case basis. in most cases its just the brain motor functions that are severed, but the mind still exists. I would never allow killing that. But in the case of Terri Shiavo, the mind was permanently lost.
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The “mind” (whatever that is) of an embryo is not “permanently lost”, it hasn’t been formed but has the potential to form, given just a little bit of time. Does that make a difference?
 
AgnosTheist said:
the link. read it up. now its your turn. show me any scientific counter evidence.
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I am sorry but I did not see anything in your article that stated that. So please you tell me where is your evidence. Exactly how many physical encounters have you had with an embryo? How many conversations have you had with an embryo? Until you can tell me that their is a legitimate study done on this I will have to go with error on the safe side. I would hate to have to find out after I killed someone that they were perfectly capable to think and feel.
 
RebeccaJ said:
Scientifically is an interesting term to use, since scientifically speaking, there is no consensus as to when a human being actually becomes a human being.
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lets work our way up, beginning with the fertilized egg. Does it have a mind? Scientifically, NO - since it doesnt have a brain. Without a mind, its not a Human Being.

agree?
 
RebeccaJ said:
The “mind” (whatever that is) of an embryo is not “permanently lost”, it hasn’t been formed but has the potential to form, given just a little bit of time. Does that make a difference?
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sounds like the science article can be a bit confusing. so lets work our way up. read my previous post.
 
st_lucy said:
I am sorry but I did not see anything in your article that stated that.
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I think it would help all of you to see better if we work ourself up. read my previous post. agree or disagree? why?
 
AgnosTheist said:
lets work our way up, beginning with the fertilized egg. Does it have a mind? Scientifically, NO - since it doesnt have a brain. Without a mind, its not a Human Being.

agree?
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Who says? You?
Did you read the article I posted?
 
AgnosTheist said:
I think it would help all of you to see better if we work ourself up. read my previous post. agree or disagree? why?
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I am sorry if you think anything you say would make me deem person hood on a fellow human. I have not seen anything that would make me think that just because one person does not fit the culture of death’s idea of a “person” is simple not human. It goes back to the idea of if it looks like a duck …

According to you anyone who has lost a child before your precious 90 day mark didn’t really lose anything. Right.
 
AgnosTheist said:
then you are hopelessly closeminded and its no use talking to you. good night, m’am. 🙂
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So if I don’t see things like you, so if I refuse to kill I must be closeminded?!?!:confused:

Going for the name calling, Very Mature.🙂

How about trying to answer some of our questions?
 
AgnosTheist said:
lets work our way up, beginning with the fertilized egg. Does it have a mind? Scientifically, NO. Without a mind, its not a Human Being.

agree?
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No, I don’t agree. It has the DNA of a human. There isn’t anything about it that isn’t human. It is a very complex, living, separate individual that is functioning naturally, as it is meant to be. It is being what it is.
 
AgnosTheist said:
if you disagree, just say so. lets take is slow. here, let me rephrase:

does a fertilized egg have a brain?

YES or NO.

not yet, but here i go…
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Week 3
beginning development of the brain, spinal cord, and
nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/002398.htm
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Or do you mean a fully developed brain? Takes years after birth…so now what? Just what stage of development of the brain will YOU accept as “functioning” to determine personhood? What if you’re wrong and someday it is proven that an embryo does have cognitive ability? Too bad for those poor dead embryos before science proved they could imagine. Do you know what has been discovered regarding the embryo in the past 40 years? Don’t take my word for it, just wait 20 yrs or so and see what scientific breakthroughs come about. You sound young…
 
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