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AgnosTheist
Guest
lets make it easier, does a fertilized egg have a single brain cell?
then its just too bad. accidents of history. but dont feel too grouchy about it, just remember that your church did a lot worst in the past. its how humanity learns, through trial & error.
Young enough to still enjoy Halo 3.
Now about your article, it does not touch my contention about a person being defined by the mere presence of a mind.
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AgnosTheist
Guest
The presence of a DNA does not constitute a mind.
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AgnosTheist
Guest
with your religious point of view we might never agree on what a person is. Hear my understanding of it one more tiem…this time I will base it from Webster:
PERSON: the personality of a human being : self
SELF: the union of elements (as body, emotions, thoughts, and sensations) that constitute the individuality and identity of a person
By these unbiased definitions the Zygote is not a person. Agree?
And BTW, all this talk & I dont think I heard a formal definition of ‘person’ from any of you guys. What is it? What is a ‘person’? I will appreciate it more if you can base it from an unbiased source.
And this is where we differ. For you the possible end result is no different from its beginning. For me, its a world of difference. The zygote is not a person.
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elvisman
Guest
Guys -
He’s never going to change his mind because he is what he has accused others on the this thread of being - CLOSE-MINDED. It’s like talking to a wall.
He quotes from the dictionary when it suits his argument, then he uses his own warped and convoluted logic for justifying the murder of innocent humans.
If it takes the ability to reason to qualify as a human being (as Agnos has stated), the mentally retarded, those suffering from Alzheimer’s disease and other demetias should be exterminated at will.
I have only this to say to our friend:
There is none so blind as he who REFUSES to see.
He’s never going to change his mind because he is what he has accused others on the this thread of being - CLOSE-MINDED. It’s like talking to a wall.
He quotes from the dictionary when it suits his argument, then he uses his own warped and convoluted logic for justifying the murder of innocent humans.
If it takes the ability to reason to qualify as a human being (as Agnos has stated), the mentally retarded, those suffering from Alzheimer’s disease and other demetias should be exterminated at will.
I have only this to say to our friend:
There is none so blind as he who REFUSES to see.
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hasikelee
Guest
Since this is a scientific argument, please further define your use of the word “mind.”
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notself
Guest
The link to the source of this information is below the description of fetal development. I posted the link previously but no one must have clicked on it because many of the questions are answered on the site. I have taken sections from the site so that no one has to bother with the link.
The second link is also very interesting and I encourage posters to read the article about baby Amelia. When exactly did Amelia stop being a lump of meat and become a baby? Was it one second after she was born?
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ncgolf
Guest
You just dont get it … I wrote this early in the discussion
A person is the object created by the union of sperm and egg. As soon as that event occurs the object receives the intrinsic and extrinsic qualites of what created it. It is not dependent on anything the object does, or doesnt do, where the object resides, thinks, eats etc. Persons beget persons while I think you suggest persons beget non-persons until such time that some quality(mind) is attained then personhood is given or earned. You suggest that is why they can be destroyed because they are non-persons otherwise it would be murder.
We use words to describe what we are … they classify us … help define us but are not us. Person, human, embryo, adult, black, white, young, old, sick, healthy.
You should get to be protected as a human just as I described …no sooner because you did not exist but at the moment of conception because you do exist … seperate and distinct from sperm and egg.
Like Merriam-Webster … I am sure they would be happy to be attributed as support for abortion based on their definition. Sorry your support for your position has to go a little deeper than merriam-webster. You should have reams of scientific analysis that say when a person is meaursable and attains a suficient amount of personhood to be protected. Can someone be 50 percent a person? How about anything less than 100 percent? What if your analysis concludes anything less than 100 say 99 percent is unacceptable?
Ever see a zygote turn into a embryo … ever see (let alone measure) a fetus turn into a person … I doubt it … wait look it up on wikapedia. All this science stuff from you and you cannot give scientific support when a fetus turns into a human or person or whatever it is think it needs to be to not be murdered.
I offered no scientific support for any of my areas … I go back to my igonorance of when personhood happens or how it happens. We really don’t know and for sure you don’t so unless you can offer scientific analysis when this happens otherwise protection begins at the earliest time available (conception).
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kellie
Guest
Hi all,
As someone said earlier in this thread, religion and abortion is always an interesting topic.
I don’t believe in abortion at all, but I did have something sad happen to me once, that has always made me question the whole “life starts at conception” argument.
11 years ago I had a blighted ovum.
This is where the egg fertilizes with the sperm, and settles into the womb, creating a placenta, but the cell never divides any further to create an embryo.
After a few weeks, a missed miscarriage occurs.
I thought I was pregnant the whole time, as I didn’t have health insurance, and consequently didn’t have a scan.
At 16 weeks I miscarried, which was only the placenta coming away.
The doctors found no foetal blood, so concluded it was a blighted ovum.
Since then I have always pondered this whole “life starts at conception” as I conceived, if you call the egg and sperm meeting and fertilising, but I never created life.
Just thought I would share this with you all to add to the discussion.
What do you all think?
As someone said earlier in this thread, religion and abortion is always an interesting topic.
I don’t believe in abortion at all, but I did have something sad happen to me once, that has always made me question the whole “life starts at conception” argument.
11 years ago I had a blighted ovum.
This is where the egg fertilizes with the sperm, and settles into the womb, creating a placenta, but the cell never divides any further to create an embryo.
After a few weeks, a missed miscarriage occurs.
I thought I was pregnant the whole time, as I didn’t have health insurance, and consequently didn’t have a scan.
At 16 weeks I miscarried, which was only the placenta coming away.
The doctors found no foetal blood, so concluded it was a blighted ovum.
Since then I have always pondered this whole “life starts at conception” as I conceived, if you call the egg and sperm meeting and fertilising, but I never created life.
Just thought I would share this with you all to add to the discussion.
What do you all think?
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st_lucy
Guest
Well, I know that I have been called close-minded here but I thought for those who don’t turn to name calling they might want to still hear my opinion.
So I thought lets go back to what we all learned science 101.
What is Life?:
1)It does take energy to grow - in fact there is so much going on at the zygote stage that if you blink you just might miss something. WOW! that is a lot of energy.
2)Well, we do know for a fact that the unborn do get rid of their waste. What thoughtful people.
3)Oh yeah the unborn sure do grow and develop. Three stages in just nine short months.
4)Any pregnant mom will attest to how their unborn reacts to their environment. IF you don’t believe that just look at an ultra sound.
5)Well, we know if given the chance they could very well reproduce one day.
6)And yes again we know that if given the chance they well evolve and adapt to their environment. As Agnos has shown he has adapted to his environment of living in the culture of death and now has evolved into a human who cares so little for those whom he once resembled due to his own blown up ego of how much more important he is compared to those who are still very vulnerable. Very sad indeed.
So I thought lets go back to what we all learned science 101.
What is Life?:
So what does this mean? Well lets apply these traits to our unborn:
1)It does take energy to grow - in fact there is so much going on at the zygote stage that if you blink you just might miss something. WOW! that is a lot of energy.
2)Well, we do know for a fact that the unborn do get rid of their waste. What thoughtful people.
3)Oh yeah the unborn sure do grow and develop. Three stages in just nine short months.
4)Any pregnant mom will attest to how their unborn reacts to their environment. IF you don’t believe that just look at an ultra sound.
5)Well, we know if given the chance they could very well reproduce one day.
6)And yes again we know that if given the chance they well evolve and adapt to their environment. As Agnos has shown he has adapted to his environment of living in the culture of death and now has evolved into a human who cares so little for those whom he once resembled due to his own blown up ego of how much more important he is compared to those who are still very vulnerable. Very sad indeed.
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swariffin
Guest
Why do you think that an embrio has no mind. Because you think the answer is NO. Why that it has to be you who decide? Both the embrio and you have mind, the difference is that yours is more developed, only and only because you were born earlier. Had an embrio given a chance to live as long as you have, there is a probability that the embrio could become a better human compared to you and me or others. Could become worse too, off course. But, still the probability of being a better human it still there. It depends on us (you, me, and the society) which able to influence the outcome.
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swariffin
Guest
Since you were also originated from a fertilized eggs, where did your brain cell come from?
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swariffin
Guest
My definition of Human Mind:
“Something(s) originated from human, and belong to human”
“Something(s) originated from human, and belong to human”
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AgnosTheist
Guest
You cant even answer this simple question.
I agree with that. But the person is created only after several weeks of processing after the actual union.
The dictionary only states the most common understandings of the term. Though personhood is heavily debated, at least i go by common knowledge. You guys cant even give formal definitions of ‘person’ and ‘mind’ that would support your views. With such shortcommings, how can you hope to convince people like me? Like the Catholic Romans (*preferrable than ‘Roman Catholic’ *eh?
).
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AgnosTheist
Guest
because it has no functional brain.
it came from egg components and external nutrients.
like your foot, eh?
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iamrefreshed
Guest
Be careful about going by common knowledge.The dictionary only states the most common understandings of the term. Though personhood is heavily debated, at least i go by common knowledge. You guys cant even give formal definitions of ‘person’ and ‘mind’ that would support your views. With such shortcommings, how can you hope to convince people like me? Like the Catholic Romans (*preferrable than ‘Roman Catholic’ *eh?
It used to be common knowledge that…
the world was flat
the sun orbited the earth
and many many more
But we are talking about babies here. A compassionate human being would err on the side of caution.
There is no denying that abortion ends a human life. You are human, you were a embryo, if you were aborted you would be dead.
I’m glad you were not:thumbsup:
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RebeccaJ
Guest
I don’t really see how that is relevant to what an embryo *is. *
Science defines the mind as a function. Science describes how things work. What it does. Doing is not Being.
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estesbob
Guest
Nor, it appears, does posting to the internet.
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AgnosTheist
Guest
this is all about the personhood of an embryo. and its the mind that makes something a person.
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church_mouse
Guest
By day 6 the embryo does. You might want to study fetal development.
You might want to spend more time studying history too.
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