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Hoosier_Daddy
Guest
Advise what? NFP? Abstaining? What exactly does a priest NEED to advise?
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Kelfa28
Guest
I agree but anything other then NFP or total abstinence is sinful and wrong.The health of the mother is paramount. Risking a mother’s life or medical health by playing Russian roulette is exactly when and where a priest needs to advise based on unique individual circumstances.
A Priest should give the couple every piece of information he can provide…getting the couple in touch with local NFP instructors, information on different NFP techniques, NAPRO technology…whatever he can do for them.
It is up to the couple to make some prayerful discernments and make a decision that is right for them and to follow through with that position.
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StGerardMajella
Guest
The original poster should ask a qualified Catholic priest. In this particular case, we have a confluence of multiple issues that are far too complicated to be sorted out in a public forum. It would be imprudent to even try to advise without knowing the full context of the situation.Advise what? NFP? Abstaining? What exactly does a priest NEED to advise?
Again, only a qualified Catholic priest can properly advise as to what is “sinful and wrong”. We should not be passing judgment, especially given the complex and private nature of the issues at hand.I agree but anything other then NFP or total abstinence is sinful and wrong.
Compassion would be the proper Christian response.
If pregnancy places the life of the mother in jeopardy, and abstinence would dissolve the marriage and destroy the family unit, then only a qualified Catholic priest can advise as to the proper course of action.
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nodito
Guest
This is not true. The catechism teaches us the contraception is “intrinsically evil.” This means it is always evil, and circumstances cannot change the act of contraception in to a good. We are clearly called to pass judgement on acts, as we do when we say, for example, that murder, or theft, or adultery are “sinful and wrong.”Again, only a qualified Catholic priest can properly advise as to what is “sinful and wrong”. We should not be passing judgment, especially given the complex and private nature of the issues at hand.
This is different than passing judgement on an individual, who may or may not be guilty of mortal sin when contracepting. But if you are suggesting that a priest can look at the “complex and private nature of the issues at hand” and somehow give permission for a person to deliberately choose to do something intrinsically evil, you are mistaken.
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StGerardMajella
Guest
Catholic Answers would disagree:But if you are suggesting that a priest can look at the “complex and private nature of the issues at hand” and somehow give permission for a person to deliberately choose to doing something intrinsically evil, you are mistaken.
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?threadid=912864
"Dear friend,
The Church does allow such use so long as it is for medicinal purposes and the intention is not to contracept.
Fr. Vincent Serpa, O.P. "
Quite clearly, the original post has outlined very serious medical issues. Again, I would defer to a qualified Catholic priest, and not to a public forum where Church teaching can be misinterpreted.
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nodito
Guest
Father Serpa is responding to a question about taking a medication to treat an illness that has as a side effect temporary infertility. The medicine is not being taken to prevent pregnancy, or it would be a contraception. This is different than permitting someone to use contraception to avoid pregnancy, which is always “intrinsically evil”:Catholic Answers would disagree:
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?threadid=912864
"Dear friend,
The Church does allow such use so long as it is for medicinal purposes and the intention is not to contracept.
Fr. Vincent Serpa, O.P. "
Quite clearly, the original post has outlined very serious medical issues. Again, I would defer to a qualified Catholic priest, and not to a public forum where Church teaching can be misinterpreted.
Catechism of the Catholic Church said:2370 Periodic continence, that is, the methods of birth regulation based on self-observation and the use of infertile periods, is in conformity with the objective criteria of morality.These methods respect the bodies of the spouses, encourage tenderness between them, and favor the education of an authentic freedom. In contrast, “every action which, whether in anticipation of the conjugal act, or in its accomplishment, or in the development of its natural consequences, proposes, whether as an end or as a means, to render procreation impossible” is intrinsically evil.
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StGerardMajella
Guest
Am I to understand that you are a physician able to remotely evaluate the medical and psychological conditions of the original poster via a public forum, such that you are able to advise on these matters with any semblance of authority?Father Serpa is responding to a question about taking a medication to treat an illness that has as a side effect temporary infertility. The medicine is not being taken to prevent pregnancy, or it would be a contraception.
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nodito
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No, you are to understand that I have read the catechism.Am I to understand that you are a physician able to remotely evaluate the medical and psychological conditions of the original poster via a public forum, such that you are able to advise on these matters with any semblance of authority?
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StGerardMajella
Guest
…which makes you unqualified as to the correct and proper response to the original poster’s query.No, you are to understand that I have read the catechism.
The original poster has exceptionally serious medical issues to which a pregnancy would place her life in danger. If she doesn’t take proactive steps, she could potentially suffer death or debilitating medical issues. Avoiding death and post-partum depression seem like legitimate medical “issues” to me following Fr. Serpa’s guidance.
Since you are neither a Catholic priest, nor a competent medical professional, the proper course of action would be to defer the response to an authority that has the proper background and education to counsel the original poster.
Compassion is in order. Passing blanket judgments is neither appropriate, neither is it in the spirit of Christian charity.
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thetruth0flife
Guest
Greetings, I’m not sure what you mean by him becoming the “super catholic.” What I am trying to mean is if he actually did return to his catholic faith?8 months later he rediscovered his Catholic faith, and became the super catholic
In my opinion I think that it depends whether or not he is putting himself in a moral sin. In regards, if he has any moral sin within himself. Other than that, I suggest that both of you talk and make a decision. Best be for him to catch on a church activity or event and not feel left out.I’m getting pretty frustrated because I feel like his decision to return to his faith is now ruling my life… However, my husband acts like this would put him into some state of moral sin. Is this true? Because honestly that seems extreme that someone else’s actions could put another person in a state of sin.
To the point, actually being in the catholic faith and not doing what he is supposed to be doing or participating in ( some masses are important) can leave him in moral sin.
Here is some information that I hope can help you better understand and comprehend what I am trying to say, blessings:
I. NATURE OF SIN
Since sin is a moral evil, it is necessary in the first place to determine what is meant by evil, and in particular by moral evil.
Moral evil is found only in intelligent beings; it deprives them of some moral good. Here we have to deal with moral evil only. This may be defined as a privation of conformity to right reason and to the law of God. Since the morality of a human act consists in its agreement or non-agreement with right reason and the eternal law, an act is good or evil in the moral order according as it involves this agreement or non-agreement. When the intelligent creature, knowing God and His law, deliberately refuses to obey, moral evil results.
Resource:
catholic.org/encyclopedia/view.php?id=10849
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nodito
Guest
StGerardMajella, is it ever possible for a lay person to say that something is wrong? For example, is it possible for me to say that abortion is wrong or that murder is wrong or that theft is wrong? If you saw an anonymous person in an online forum write “murder is wrong,” would you argue that the person is unqualified to say that because they are not a doctor who specializes in the human body or a priest who has studied theology? The fact that I’m a health professional is irrelevant to this discussion because understanding the church’s teaching on contraception does not require an advanced degree.…which makes you unqualified as to the correct and proper response to the original poster’s query.
The original poster has exceptionally serious medical issues to which a pregnancy would place her life in danger. If she doesn’t take proactive steps, she could potentially suffer death or debilitating medical issues. Avoiding death and post-partum depression seem like legitimate medical “issues” to me following Fr. Serpa’s guidance.
Since you are neither a Catholic priest, nor a competent medical professional, the proper course of action would be to defer the response to an authority that has the proper background and education to counsel the original poster.
Compassion is in order. Passing blanket judgments is neither appropriate, neither is it in the spirit of Christian charity.
How do we know right from wrong? The Church! She teaches us through her priests, of course, but that does not mean that everyone is in the dark unless they are ordained. The church also publishes encyclicals, catechisms, etc. You can look them up yourself online. Have you read Humane Vitae? You may find it helpful and interesting. It is the Church who uses the terms “instrinsically evil” and “intrinsically wrong” and “objectively disordered” to describe the act of contraception, not me. The Church does not act contrary to Christian charity by teaching the truth.
You are misreading Father Serpa’s reply. He says, “The Church does allow such use so long as it is for medicinal purposes and the intention is not to contracept.” Contraception is done with the intention to avoid pregnancy. Do you understand the distinction he’s making? The poster in Father Serpa’s question was asking whether a medicine could be used to treat an illness, even though it causes infertility. Father Serpa answers in the affirmative, because the intention is *not to contracept. * You are suggesting that a person with a serious medical condition who has a legitimate need to avoid pregnancy may be permitted to contracept. The Church teaches the opposite.
Here are two of the relevant passages in Humanae Vitae, though there are many others:
Equally to be condemned, as the magisterium of the Church has affirmed on many occasions, is direct sterilization, whether of the man or of the woman, whether permanent or temporary. (15)
I’m not sure how you can read this as anyway other than what it is; that contraception is “condemned” but treating illnesses are not. That said, I’ve been on these forums long enough to realize that members rarely have an instantaneous change of heart. I foresee that our conversation will no longer be productive, so I do not plan to continue this debate.
- On the other hand, the Church does not consider at all illicit the use of those therapeutic means necessary to cure bodily diseases, even if a foreseeable impediment to procreation should result there from—provided such impediment is not directly intended for any motive whatsoever. (19)
God bless you, Sir.
"Is contraception moral when a pregnancy could be deadly?"
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underacloud
Guest
The issues are actually not particularly complicated. Difficult - yes, but complicated - no.In this particular case, we have a confluence of multiple issues that are far too complicated to be sorted out in a public forum. It would be imprudent to even try to advise without knowing the full context of the situation.
Issue a) can the husband use contraception? No.
Issue b) can the husband have sex with his wife if she uses contraception? Yes, as long as his objection is clear and he does no participate in the contraception itself.
Issue c) should the OP use contraception? Since contraception is intrinsically evil, neither us nor any Catholic priest could advise her to use it. I asked what her own minister advised and she did not respond.
Are you suggesting that a priest will approve or “grant a dispensation” for this couple to use contraception? No priest can do this, and the advice of laypeople that is consitent with the teaching of the magesterium (as seen in this thread) is of more weight than the advice of a priest who speaks against the magesterium. The OP has been given the correct answer from a Catholic perspective, which is what she wanted.If pregnancy places the life of the mother in jeopardy, and abstinence would dissolve the marriage and destroy the family unit, then only a qualified Catholic priest can advise as to the proper course of action.
The priest can advise the husband that he can have sex with his wife if she chooses to contracept, as discussed above. The priest cannot (should not) advise the wife (or the couple) to contracept, since contraception is considered intrinsically evil.
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Alix1912
Guest
My minister has no issues with someone using barrier forms of ABC. As long as the birth control method prevents conception and does not harm a already formed fetus.The issues are actually not particularly complicated. Difficult - yes, but complicated - no.
Issue a) can the husband use contraception? No.
Issue b) can the husband have sex with his wife if she uses contraception? Yes, as long as his objection is clear and he does no participate in the contraception itself.
Issue c) should the OP use contraception? Since contraception is intrinsically evil, neither us nor any Catholic priest could advise her to use it. I asked what her own minister advised and she did not respond.
The Lutheran Church doesn’t believe that Birth Control is intrinsically evil.
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StGerardMajella
Guest
You are ignoring her medical issues. (Not to mention the potential break-up of her marriage which would be catastrophic for her, her husband, and her children.)Issue c) should the OP use contraception? Since contraception is intrinsically evil, neither us nor any Catholic priest could advise her to use it. I asked what her own minister advised and she did not respond.
See above (and below). Her medical issues are life-threatening.The priest cannot (should not) advise the wife (or the couple) to contracept, since contraception is considered intrinsically evil.
No, I am not. You are again ignoring her life-threatening medical issues.You are misreading Father Serpa’s reply. He says, “The Church does allow such use so long as it is for medicinal purposes and the intention is not to contracept.” Contraception is done with the intention to avoid pregnancy.
If having another baby did not cause her serious medical issues, she would be open to having more children. As it stands, she makes it quite clear that having another child could be potentially debilitating, if not cause the loss of her own life.
The mother’s life takes precedence. Fr. Serpa makes it quite clear that the Church permits contraception for medicinal purposes. Clearly, prevention of the loss of her own life would qualify as a legitimate reason to take contraception.
She is not trying to avoid having children - She is trying to avoid very serious medical problems associated with pregnancy. If she does get pregnant, she could lose her health, her ability to care for her family, and even her very life itself.
Preventing death or serious injury is even graver than preventing illness. The medical issues she describes are very dangerous to her health.I’m not sure how you can read this as anyway other than what it is; that contraception is “condemned” but treating illnesses are not.
What your link fails to address is how abstinence could effectively destroy the marriage, resulting in catastrophic consequences for the family, up to and including separation and divorce. Men and women are called to union in marriage, not celibacy. They are obligated to each other.“Is contraception moral when a pregnancy could be deadly?”
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underacloud
Guest
OK, so here is the question for you…My minister has no issues with someone using barrier forms of ABC. As long as the birth control method prevents conception and does not harm a already formed fetus.
The Lutheran Church doesn’t believe that Birth Control is intrinsically evil.
Why do you not use a method of birth control that is consistent with your faith, and not expect your husband to do something that is not consistent with his?
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underacloud
Guest
No. No one is ignoring them. We are directly answering her questions regarding what the Catholic Church teaches.You are ignoring her medical issues.
You have misunderstood what Fr Sepra is saying. nodito has explained it very well above. Please follow the link at the bottom of that post.The mother’s life takes precedence. Fr. Serpa makes it quite clear that the Church permits contraception for medicinal purposes. Clearly, prevention of the loss of her own life would qualify as a legitimate reason to take contraception.
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StGerardMajella
Guest
Taking the Catechism out of context is not answering questions regarding what the Catholic Church teaches.No. No one is ignoring them. We are directly answering her questions regarding what the Catholic Church teaches.
I have not. Preventing death and serious injury is even more grave than preventing illness.You have misunderstood what Fr Sepra is saying. nodito has explained it very well above. Please follow the link at the bottom of that post.
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Alix1912
Guest
Did you read my original post…I want to get a tubal ligation, I’m not asking my husband to do anything. However, he is acting as if my decision to get a Tubal Ligation is going to put him in a state of sin.OK, so here is the question for you…
Why do you not use a method of birth control that is consistent with your faith, and not expect your husband to do something that is not consistent with his?
I am frustrated as my pregnancies were extremely difficult, and I had both Post Partum Depression and Anxiety after both. It took almost 9 months after my first child to get my head on remotely straight again, and about 7 months after my second. Both times came with periods of horrible anxiety attacks. I never want to go back to that place mentally again, because it was awful. I do not trust NFP, and see no point in it as I am 100% DONE with having anymore kids.
So my options are abstinence for the next 20 some odd years till I am sure I’m through menopause or a Tubal ligation.
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underacloud
Guest
As nodito said, this conversation is no longer productive.Taking the Catechism out of context is not answering questions regarding what the Catholic Church teaches.
I have not. Preventing death and serious injury is even more grave than preventing illness.
The correct Church teaching has been explained to the OP, which is what she wanted. I’ll be happy to respond to any further posts from her and help explain/clarify the Catholic position.
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StGerardMajella
Guest
We can agree to disagree. Encouraging the endangerment of the life of a woman with a history of severe pregnancy complications is not Catholic teaching. Neither is encouraging abstinence resulting in separation and divorce. The Catechism doesn’t operate in a vacuum.The correct Church teaching has been explained to the OP, which is what she wanted. I’ll be happy to respond to any further posts from her and help explain/clarify the Catholic position.
It takes a compassionate, qualified priest to address nuances and specific unique circumstances. I’ve already raised more than sufficient explanation to recommend that the original poster seeks competent advice from a Catholic priest, and not from a public forum from anonymous “Catholics” proclaiming to know the Catechism.
I would contact your local Archdiocese and ask to speak to a priest if you want the most accurate counsel.So my options are abstinence for the next 20 some odd years till I am sure I’m through menopause or a Tubal ligation.
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