Non-Catholics -- dealing with heresy

[BohemianBrother]

You’re right. This cannot be about compromises. I wish every denomination to stand what it stands for. Maybe if the majority of denominations and Churches agreed on what is actually neccessary, it would be easier for some to correct their ways. (Eg. The Baptists may understand better why the Lords Supper must be a Sacrament). It could certainly convince some of their errors.

I don’t believe some larger sticking points are as large as them seem really. What’s the real difference between Sola Fide and faith+works?? Silly wordplay, both require faith, both require works.

But those were just my thoughts. I think you made a very good point on why that is not possible. Thank you and have a blessed day!!

 

[BohemianBrother]

Agreed.

And he also wants them to become Orthodox.

If determining rightful authority was easy, division would never persist. Sadly it’s not that way.

 

[Lenten_ashes]

false doctrine

as stated previously - false doctrine

 

[lanman87]

as stated previously - false doctrine

Are you asking how Non-Catholics recognize and deal with Heresy or how Catholics should deal with Non-Catholics?

 

[Lenten_ashes]

Theoretically speaking, how would you deal with it if you were/are Catholic?(for anyone)

If someone like yourself were Catholic could rewrite the Catechism on our relations with protestants with differing viewpoints, how do you state things? How should heresy be addressed in your opinion?

 

[lanman87]

Theoretically speaking, how would you deal with it if you were/are Catholic?(for anyone)

If someone like yourself were Catholic could rewrite the Catechism on our relations with protestants with differing viewpoints, how do you state things? How should heresy be addressed in your opinion?

That is an interesting question. There does seem to be some ambiguity among Catholics on how to deal with non-Catholic Christians. I basically got three answers to my question. Yes, No, and Maybe.

I will say that it seems that Vatican II created some ambiguity. Before that I think most Catholics would have said it is impossible for Non-Catholic Christians to be saved and they they are not part of the Church/The Body of Christ in any fashion.

Since Vat II the answer seems kinda fuzzy.

I joked with my son that before Vatican II it was impossible for non-Catholics to be saved but at Vatican II God changed His mind.

 

[Genesis315]

I will say that it seems that Vatican II created some ambiguity. Before that I think most Catholics would have said it is impossible for Non-Catholic Christians to be saved and they they are not part of the Church/The Body of Christ in any fashion.

If they said it was impossible, it was because they were confused. Catholic doctrine before Vatican II had been clear on this point for centuries (it was there, but less polished and fleshed since the beginning):

Catechism of St. Pius X (well before Vatican II):

29 Q. But if a man through no fault of his own is outside the Church, can he be saved?
A. If he is outside the Church through no fault of his, that is, if he is in good faith, and if he has received Baptism, or at least has the implicit desire of Baptism; and if, moreover, he sincerely seeks the truth and does God’s will as best he can such a man is indeed separated from the body of the Church, but is united to the soul of the Church and consequently is on the way of salvation.

Most Catholics in the US were educated by the Baltimore Catechism, which says the same thing. It also has this helpful diagram showing those outside the Church connected to it and being saved (note, the person receiving sacramental baptism is actually entering the boat by a ladder, while the others just hold on by ropes):

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

 

[adf417]

I joked with my son that before Vatican II it was impossible for non-Catholics to be saved but at Vatican II God changed His mind.

Do you also joke with your son about abortion sense SOME Catholic think it is ok, or do you automatically teach your son the truth and tell him these Catholic are gravely confused?

Peace!!!

 

[Wannano]

lanman87:

I joked with my son that before Vatican II it was impossible for non-Catholics to be saved but at Vatican II God changed His mind.

Do you also joke with your son about abortion sense SOME Catholic think it is ok, or do you automatically teach your son the truth and tell him these Catholic are gravely confused?

Peace!!!

Are you indicating that you feel the CC is confused since V2?

 

[adf417]

adf417:

lanman87:

I joked with my son that before Vatican II it was impossible for non-Catholics to be saved but at Vatican II God changed His mind.

Do you also joke with your son about abortion sense SOME Catholic think it is ok, or do you automatically teach your son the truth and tell him these Catholic are gravely confused?

Peace!!!

Are you indicating that you feel the CC is confused since V2?

Nope

Peace!!!

 

[Wannano]

lanman87:

I joked with my son that before Vatican II it was impossible for non-Catholics to be saved but at Vatican II God changed His mind.

Do you also joke with your son about abortion sense SOME Catholic think it is ok, or do you automatically teach your son the truth and tell him these Catholic are gravely confused?

Peace!!!

Are Catholics that do not believe and uphold the dictates of the Church still Catholics?

 

[Wannano]

lanman87:

I will say that it seems that Vatican II created some ambiguity. Before that I think most Catholics would have said it is impossible for Non-Catholic Christians to be saved and they they are not part of the Church/The Body of Christ in any fashion.

H
If they said it was impossible, it was because they were confused. Catholic doctrine before Vatican II had been clear on this point for centuries (it was there, but less polished and fleshed since the beginning):

Catechism of St. Pius X (well before Vatican II):

29 Q. But if a man through no fault of his own is outside the Church, can he be saved?
A. If he is outside the Church through no fault of his, that is, if he is in good faith, and if he has received Baptism, or at least has the implicit desire of Baptism; and if, moreover, he sincerely seeks the truth and does God’s will as best he can such a man is indeed separated from the body of the Church, but is united to the soul of the Church and consequently is on the way of salvation.

Most Catholics in the US were educated by the Baltimore Catechism, which says the same thing. It also has this helpful diagram showing those outside the Church connected to it and being saved (note, the person receiving sacramental baptism is actually entering the boat by a ladder, while the others just hold on by ropes):

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

I find this Catechism quite fascinating. If a man is outside the Church through no fault of his own (not sure what that really means) he is on the way of salvation because he is united to the soul of the Church even though he is separated from the body of the Church.
What then about a Catholic who is united to the Church in the body of the Church but is separated from the soul of the Church because he does not believe and practice all the Church teaches?

 

[adf417]

adf417:

lanman87:

I joked with my son that before Vatican II it was impossible for non-Catholics to be saved but at Vatican II God changed His mind.

Do you also joke with your son about abortion sense SOME Catholic think it is ok, or do you automatically teach your son the truth and tell him these Catholic are gravely confused?

Peace!!!

Are Catholics that do not believe and uphold the dictates of the Church still Catholics?

Yep! We all fail to some degree.

Peace!!!

 

[thistle]

Are Catholics that do not believe and uphold the dictates of the Church still Catholics?

Someone who is sacramentally baptised Catholic remains a Catholic forever even if they reject the teachings of the Church and walk away. There are no ex or former Catholics.
Only two types of Catholics exist - those in a state of grace and those in a state of mortal sin.

 

[Wannano]

Wannano:

Are Catholics that do not believe and uphold the dictates of the Church still Catholics?

Someone who is sacramentally baptised Catholic remains a Catholic forever even if they reject the teachings of the Church and walk away. There are no ex or former Catholics.
Only two types of Catholics exist - those in a state of grace and those in a state of mortal sin.

So who then is a heretic?

 

[thistle]

So who then is a heretic?

In simple terms a Catholic who rejects infallible teachings of the Church. Being a heretic does not result in you not being a Catholic. It means you go into a state of mortal sin. They may or may not be excommunicated.
Heresy carries the penalty of automatic excommunication only if the person knows the sin the have committed carries such a penalty.
Even if excommunicated that too does not mean the person is no longer Catholic because they still have access to the Sacrament of Confession. Only Catholics have access to that Sacrament.

 

[Wannano]

Why is it that only Catholics have access to Confession? Isn’t submitting to Confession actually displaying repentance?

 

[thistle]

Why is it that only Catholics have access to Confession? Isn’t submitting to Confession actually displaying repentance?

The Catholic Church is the only Church established by Christ and he gave only the Catholic Church the authority to teach in matters of faith and morals and to forgive sins in persona Christi.

 

[Wannano]

I understand that is your belief but it did not answer my question. What does a Priest tell someone who is not a Catholic that goes to him in sorrow for a sin he has comitted …“sorry, you are not Catholic I can’t help you?”

 

[thistle]

I understand that is your belief but it did not answer my question. What does a Priest tell someone who is not a Catholic that goes to him in sorrow for a sin he has comitted …“sorry, you are not Catholic I can’t help you?”

The priest might agree to meet that person outside Confession to counsel them but the priest cannot give absolution to a non-Catholic.