Non-Catholics -- dealing with heresy

[Wannano]

Please bear with me, I am not trying to be uncharitable. Can you understand how far away from the action at Pentecost this all seems? Peter preached, men (not yet Catholics ) with their consciences pricked asked what they need to do…Peter’s answer was so simple, repent!

 

[thistle]

Please bear with me, I am not trying to be uncharitable. Can you understand how far away from the action at Pentecost this all seems? Peter preached, men (not yet Catholics ) with their consciences pricked asked what they need to do…Peter’s answer was so simple, repent!

Repent and be baptised. Baptism is necessary for salvation (but not sufficient on its own).
John the Baptist’s baptising did not forgive sins. He preached repent and be baptised.
In the case of the Apostles who were given authority by Christ when they preached to people who sincerely repented they were baptised and became Catholic and their sins at baptism were forgiven.

 

[Wannano]

Yes, but baptism only happens once, repentance and confession are ongoing. My understanding of the early church is that there was no such thing as confessing privately to a priest but rather confession was in front of the whole congregation. Somehow, it seems that to have been alive back then would have been such a privilege. True religion before man supposedly became sophisticated.

 

[thistle]

Yes, but baptism only happens once, repentance and confession are ongoing. My understanding of the early church is that there was no such thing as confessing privately to a priest but rather confession was in front of the whole congregation. Somehow, it seems that to have been alive back then would have been such a privilege. True religion before man supposedly became sophisticated.

Yes but it applied only to Catholics. If there was a bunch of pagans in such a crowd their sins would not be forgiven.

 

[Wannano]

Sorry, you lost me… what is “it”?

 

[thistle]

Sorry, you lost me… what is “it”?

The “it” I meant was absolution. Was your post referring to a congregation completely of Catholics.
There is no public Confession now. There was in the early days.

 

[Wannano]

I was referring to a congregation of Christians!

If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Thanks for the discussion.

 

[Wannano]

If you had the authority to rewrite the Catechism of the Catholic Church, what do you think it should say about those with various beliefs about core doctrines?

Whoever is not against Jesus are for Him. Those who are not for Jesus are against Him. By this shall all men know you are His disciples, that you have love for one another.

 

[VeryBlessed]

What then about a Catholic who is united to the Church in the body of the Church but is separated from the soul of the Church because he does not believe and practice all the Church teaches?

I don’t speak for the church universal, I’m just one single Catholic. But Matthew 7:21-23 comes to mind in answer to your question (Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name? Did we not drive out demons in your name? Did we not do mighty deeds in your name?’ Then I will declare to them solemnly, ‘I never knew you. Depart from me, you evildoers.’).

That verse has a warning in it for ALL of us who would claim the label “Christian”, Catholic or not. Seems foolish to try to fool HIM. He of all “people” knows what true love is and is not.

 

[Genesis315]

What then about a Catholic who is united to the Church in the body of the Church but is separated from the soul of the Church because he does not believe and practice all the Church teaches?

Vatican II, Lumen Gentium:

He is not saved, however, who, though part of the body of the Church, does not persevere in charity. He remains indeed in the bosom of the Church, but, as it were, only in a “bodily” manner and not “in his heart.”

 

[goout]

It’s important to realize some important distinction:

1. there is a definition of heresy that describes certain beliefs that are outside Catholic belief. Even Catholics hold some of these beliefs.

But, to be guilty of heresy (or, to be “charged as a heretic”):
One must be Catholic, and have the obstinate denial etc…
Modern day protestants hold beliefs that are heretical, but they are not guilty of the crime of heresy.

By analogy, if a person living in France does not pay taxes to the US, we might say his actions are out of step with the support of US society and the welfare of US people through the normal means.
The person living in France however, is not living under the law of the US. So he cannot be charged with a crime.

1. God can forgive sins outside the confessional. God is not bound by the sacraments. But, a Catholic is given the normal means to forgiveness of sins, which is through the priesthood of the Church, in persona Christi. A non-Catholic can attain baptism and salvation through the other means, but all are called to the Body of Christ, which is The Catholic Church.

To whom much is given, much is expected

Being Catholic does not give one an “easier way to heaven”. Being Catholic is more, not less. And that includes obedience and taking responsibility.

 

[Wannano]

What is the purpose of coddling lukewarm individuals in the bosom of the Church? A comment against the Catholic Church that I have heard all my life is how easy it is to be Catholic; you become a Christian as a baby by baptism, live however you want and in the end at your funeral the priest will recall your baptism and have your sins forgiven unless you were really lucky and got last rites which forgives all your sins even if you receive them in a state of unconciousness. Really if this is truth, it makes the Catholic way look attractive.

 

[goout]

Well one of the thoughts seems to be that baptism makes you Catholic, no matter which Christian denomination does it. That would mean that even Protestants would be heretics.
[/quote]

But that’s not the case.

 

[Genesis315]

You don’t have to be a Catholic to commit heresy, just be baptized:

CCC:

“2089 Heresy is the obstinate post-baptismal denial of some truth which must be believed with divine and catholic faith, or it is likewise an obstinate doubt concerning the same”

 

[goout]

You don’t have to be a Catholic to commit heresy, just be baptized:

CCC:

“2089 Heresy is the obstinate post-baptismal denial of some truth which must be believed with divine and catholic faith, or it is likewise an obstinate doubt concerning the same”

That’s the definition of heresy.
To be guilty as a heretic one must be Catholic. End of story.

 

[goout]

Well one of the thoughts seems to be that baptism makes you Catholic, no matter which Christian denomination does it. That would mean that even Protestants would be heretics.
[/quote]

Reread the theology of baptism and what it mean to be in complete communion with the Church.

Modern day protestants are specifically not considered heretics by the Church. The charge of heresy applies to Catholics.

Wounds to unity

[817] In fact, "in this one and only Church of God from its very beginnings there arose certain rifts, which the Apostle strongly censures as damnable. But in subsequent centuries much more serious dissensions appeared and large communities became separated from full communion with the Catholic Church - for which, often enough, men of both sides were to blame."269 The ruptures that wound the unity of Christ’s Body - here we must distinguish heresy, apostasy, and schism270 - do not occur without human sin:

Where there are sins, there are also divisions, schisms, heresies, and disputes. Where there is virtue, however, there also are harmony and unity, from which arise the one heart and one soul of all believers.271

[818] "However, one cannot charge with the sin of the separation those who at present are born into these communities [that resulted from such separation] and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ, and the Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers . . . . All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church."272

819 "Furthermore, many elements of sanctification and of truth"273 are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church: "the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope, and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements."274 Christ’s Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation, whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church. All these blessings come from Christ and lead to him,275 and are in themselves calls to "Catholic unity."276

 

[goout]

Quick point, though. We aren’t talking about being in communion with the Church, only being part of it.
[/quote]

I have no idea what point you are trying to make.

This is specifically what I have been responding to.

 

[Genesis315]

you become a Christian as a baby by baptism, live however you want and in the end at your funeral the priest will recall your baptism and have your sins forgiven unless you were really lucky and got last rites which forgives all your sins even if you receive them in a state of unconciousness.

Sins cannot be forgiven after death. Once a person has died, they go to their particular judgment. The purpose of the funeral Mass is pray for repose of the person’s soul in the hope they have been saved, but are still being purified. The funeral Mass provides no help to the damned (but since we don’t know someone’s final state, we hope for the best).

The anointing of the sick only forgives the sins of one unconscious if the person had contrition and openness to receive the sacraments prior to the unconscious state.

 

[Wannano]

If sins cannot be forgiven after death, why do priests in the funeral Mass implore God to “forgive him his sins whether voluntary or involuntary”?

 

[goout]

If sins cannot be forgiven after death, why do priests in the funeral Mass implore God to “forgive him his sins whether voluntary or involuntary”?

Keep in mind that God is outside of time, while human beings operate in created time.
Prayers that go to God are received by God within God’s scope and nature, which is utterly unlimited in time, space, and efficacy.