Non-Catholics -- dealing with heresy

[thistle]

understand what you said but you didn’t address my question originally.

You say “if there is only one God we are filled with the Holy Spirit at baptism.”

If we are only filled with the Holy Spirit at baptism how do you explain the people being filled with the Holy Spirit that Peter was talking to prior to baptism?

Acts 10: 47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?

Baptism of desire, for example the criminal on the cross with Jesus.

 

[Mishakel]

Baptism of desire, for example the criminal on the cross with Jesus.

The thief on the cross wasn’t baptized but the people Peter spoke to were. How would they get baptism of desire when they were in fact baptized? That makes no sense.

 

[Lenten_ashes]

Matt 12:32 is very interesting.

 

[Lenten_ashes]

you said:

Whoever is not against Jesus are for Him. Those who are not for Jesus are against Him. By this shall all men know you are His disciples, that you have love for one another.

Mormons would make that claim. and they bear fruit as well. So what about those folks? Thanks.

 

[Wannano]

Lenten_ashes:

Mormons too?

???10

This question comes 29 posts after I made a statement. It flatters me that you think that I am so brilliant that I would just know what you were referencing! Thanks.

 

[Wannano]

you said:

Whoever is not against Jesus are for Him. Those who are not for Jesus are against Him. By this shall all men know you are His disciples, that you have love for one another.

Mormons would make that claim. and they bear fruit as well. So what about those folks? Thanks.

Not sure about Mormons. Maybe the man that the disciples forbade from casting out demons in the name of Jesus was even some kind of early Mormon.

 

[Tommy999]

I think the point Lenten Ashes might be driving at is that doctrine matters, too, and there needs to be an entity on Earth who was put in charge by Christ to determine which doctrines are right and wrong, and obviously Catholics believe that entity is the Catholic Church. Otherwise, it becomes a matter of personal (or denominational) interpretation, which results in a wide range of contradicting doctrines that can’t all be correct.

Forgive me, Lenten Ashes, if that was not the point you are alluding to.

 

[adf417]

I think the point Lenten Ashes might be driving at is that doctrine matters, too, and there needs to be an entity on Earth who was put in charge by Christ to determine which doctrines are right and wrong, and obviously Catholics believe that entity is the Catholic Church. Otherwise, it becomes a matter of personal (or denominational) interpretation, which results in a wide range of contradicting doctrines that can’t all be correct.

Forgive me, Lenten Ashes, if that was not the point you are alluding to.

I wont speak for LA either but i would like the opp to agree with this post with one exception -

…an entity on Earth who was put in charge by Christ to [VOICE] which doctrines are right and wrong…

Peace!!!

 

[Lenten_ashes]

Correct, how much heresy is okay and who determines that and by what authority are they doing so? Anyone can say or claim to be a Spirit filled Christian. They can even produce much fruit. So I don’t feel that is some sort of legit litmus test.

But also I want/wanted non-Catholics opinion’s on how heresey is supposed to be dealt with. Because I’ve seen some critics of the Church, even some Catholics who don’t agree with the Churchs’ stance or wording in the Catechism, one way or the other. I guess I am even one of those critics as I do not like the soft language on the RCC’s relationship with Muslims.

 

[Wannano]

Correct, how much heresy is okay and who determines that and by what authority are they doing so? Anyone can say or claim to be a Spirit filled Christian. They can even produce much fruit. So I don’t feel that is some sort of legit litmus test.

But also I want/wanted non-Catholics opinion’s on how heresey is supposed to be dealt with. Because I’ve seen some critics of the Church, even some Catholics who don’t agree with the Churchs’ stance or wording in the Catechism, one way or the other. I guess I am even one of those critics as I do not like the soft language on the RCC’s relationship with Muslims.

If only the Catholic Church has legitimate authority and all that and it does not have a proper handle on all your concerns by now, what difference does it make what others think? Isn’t your job as a Catholic to swallow, believe and practice without question whatever comes down the pipe to you? By what authority do you question or differ with anything directed by the Church?

 

[Lenten_ashes]

I don’t like everything in the bible either, does not mean I don’t believe in it.

I’d like people’s opinion on this topic of heresy. Especially if you are critical of the Churches stance on her position of Non Catholic Christians.

 

[Wannano]

Why don’t you take this opportunity to explain in simple terms that can’t be misconstrued just exactly what is the official stance of the CC regarding non-Catholic Christians?

If there ever was given a straightforward concise and definitive answer to this then giving an opinion on how heresy should be dealt with would be easier.

 

[Lenten_ashes]

Been posted ad nauseum in this forum and even some, already, in this thread. I would not put it in my own terms, I let the CC speak for itself.

819 "Furthermore, many elements of sanctification and of truth"273 are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church: "the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope, and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements."274 Christ’s Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation, whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church. All these blessings come from Christ and lead to him,275 and are in themselves calls to "Catholic unity."276

[820](javascriptpenWindow(‘cr/820.htm’) "Christ bestowed unity on his Church from the beginning. This unity, we believe, subsists in the Catholic Church as something she can never lose, and we hope that it will continue to increase until the end of time."277 Christ always gives his Church the gift of unity, but the Church must always pray and work to maintain, reinforce, and perfect the unity that Christ wills for her. This is why Jesus himself prayed at the hour of his Passion, and does not cease praying to his Father, for the unity of his disciples: "That they may all be one. As you, Father, are in me and I am in you, may they also be one in us, . . . so that the world may know that you have sent me."278 The desire to recover the unity of all Christians is a gift of Christ and a call of the Holy Spirit.279

[836](javascriptpenWindow(‘cr/836.htm’) "All men are called to this catholic unity of the People of God. . . . And to it, in different ways, belong or are ordered: the Catholic faithful, others who believe in Christ, and finally all mankind, called by God’s grace to salvation."320

[837](javascriptpenWindow(‘cr/837.htm’) "Fully incorporated into the society of the Church are those who, possessing the Spirit of Christ, accept all the means of salvation given to the Church together with her entire organization, and who - by the bonds constituted by the profession of faith, the sacraments, ecclesiastical government, and communion - are joined in the visible structure of the Church of Christ, who rules her through the Supreme Pontiff and the bishops. Even though incorporated into the Church, one who does not however persevere in charity is not saved. He remains indeed in the bosom of the Church, but ‘in body’ not ‘in heart.’"321

[838](javascriptpenWindow(‘cr/838.htm’) "The Church knows that she is joined in many ways to the baptized who are honored by the name of Christian, but do not profess the Catholic faith in its entirety or have not preserved unity or communion under the successor of Peter."322 Those "who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in a certain, although imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church."323 With the Orthodox Churches , this communion is so profound "that it lacks little to attain the fullness that would permit a common celebration of the Lord’s Eucharist.

 

[Wannano]

I agree, ad nauseum, but I would love if someone could explain it now in simple concise language.

 

[De_Maria]

I joked with my son that before Vatican II it was impossible for non-Catholics to be saved but at Vatican II God changed His mind.

You? were talking to your son about Vatican II? Is your son, Catholic?

 

[Wannano]

Been posted ad nauseum in this forum and even some, already, in this thread. I would not put it in my own terms, I let the CC speak for itself.

819 "Furthermore, many elements of sanctification and of truth"273 are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church: "the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope, and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as

[820](javascriptpenWindow(‘cr/820.htm’) "Christ bestowed unity on his Church from the beginning. This unity, we believe, subsists in the Catholic Church as something she can never lose, and we hope that it will continue to increase until the end of time."277 Christ always gives his Church the gift of unity, but the Church must always pray and work to maintain, reinforce, and perfect the unity that Christ wills for her. This is why Jesus himself prayed at the hour of his Passion, and does not cease praying to his Father, for the unity of his disciples: "That they may all be one. As you, Father, are in me and I am in you, may they also be one in us, . . . so that the world may know that you have sent me."278 The desire to recover the unity of all Christians is a gift of Christ and a call of the Holy Spirit.279

[836](javascriptpenWindow(‘cr/836.htm’) "All men are called to this catholic unity of the People of God. . . . And to it, in different ways, belong or are ordered: the Catholic faithful, others who believe in Christ, and finally all mankind, called by God’s

---

Can you understand how I feel after reading this carefully that I see no advantage to joining the Catholic faith? For while I am not in perfect communion with the CC, neither do I need to be. At the end of life when I am presented with the truth about whether or not the CC was the only true church, as a non-Catholic I am still saved if it was true , but if that claim is false then as a Catholic one has been practicing extreme idolatry.

 

[De_Maria]

Can you understand how I feel after reading this carefully that I see no advantage to joining the Catholic faith?

Yes.

For while I am not in perfect communion with the CC, neither do I need to be.

That is your unfortunate error.

At the end of life when I am presented with the truth about whether or not the CC was the only true church, as a non-Catholic I am still saved if it was true ,

You’re assuming quite a bit here.

a. When you are presented with the truth about the Catholic Church at the Judgment, you won’t be asked any questions. God will inform you whether you have been unjustifiably obstinate and refused to listen to the truth. In which case, no, you are not “still saved”.

b. But, if you have listened to the truth and somehow still can’t accept it because of an innocent error, maybe, you’ll still be saved. But it seems rather a difficult situation.

but if that claim is false then as a Catholic one has been practicing extreme idolatry.

Neh. Beyond a shadow of a doubt, Jesus Christ established the Catholic Church and gave us the Eucharist. Those who deny either, are the ones who have put themselves at enmity with God.

Hebrews 10:25-31 New American Bible (Revised Edition) (NABRE)
25 We should not stay away from our assembly,[a] as is the custom of some, but encourage one another, and this all the more as you see the day drawing near.

26 If we sin deliberately after receiving knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains sacrifice for sins 27 but a fearful prospect of judgment and a flaming fire that is going to consume the adversaries. 28 Anyone who rejects the law of Moses[c] is put to death without pity on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 Do you not think that a much worse punishment is due the one who has contempt for the Son of God, considers unclean the covenant-blood by which he was consecrated, and insults the spirit of grace? 30 We know the one who said:

“Vengeance is mine; I will repay,”

and again:

“The Lord will judge his people.”

31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

 

[Wannano]

DeMaria, often when I use the word “if” I think you miss it.

 

[De_Maria]

DeMaria, often when I use the word “if” I think you miss it.

Where’s the if in this statement?

Can you understand how I feel after reading this carefully that I see no advantage to joining the Catholic faith? For while I am not in perfect communion with the CC, neither do I need to be.

It doesn’t sound as though you have any real qualms about denying the Catholic Church.

 

[Wannano]

You are very fortunate to be so understood.