Non-Catholics -- dealing with heresy

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I am not sure if this is the proper place to ask this.

What about those, who heard all the arguments, understood them, and find them unacceptable, illogical and irrational? What is their “sin”? Do they belong to the “invincibly ignorant” group? Even if they live a good, socially upright life, being kind, loving and helpful to others… but not because they follow some ancient command, rather because they are good people.

They perform the “works”, but have no “faith”? I agree that “faith” without “works” does not count… but what about the opposite “works” without “faith”?
 
Lenten_ashes said:
But also I want/wanted non-Catholics opinion’s on how heresey is supposed to be dealt with.
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As someone who currently ministers for a non-Catholic church, I find this particularly delicate.

I regularly hear things, from the chancel or not, said by more or less influent colleagues which border on, or are, heresy (the number one culprit being, most of the time, arianism). What are my options ? Well, none. There is no magisterium, no authoritative teachings to which we are all supposed to adhere. There is, in my church’s ecclesiastical discipline, not a single provision made to deal with heresy.

The only thing I can do is trying to counteract that as best as I can.

What I wish is that there were an official confession of faith or corpus of authoritative doctrinal texts, to which ministers would be expected to adhere. It would at least set a norm, and it would be possible to point out clear deviations from that norm. But my church made the deliberate choice not to have one.

I am not sure taking further measures would be possible or productive. Experience shows that when the church takes disciplinary measures against someone (mostly the case of ethical misconduct), the main effect is to foster division in the community and polarize positions. But this is in a church context where adhering to a magisterium is not a part of the church culture, and where there is little loyalty to the authorities (synod and synodal council).
 
Lenten_ashes said:
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Catechism
1257 The Lord himself affirms that Baptism is necessary for salvation.60 He also commands his disciples to proclaim the Gospel to all nations and to baptize them.61 Baptism is necessary for salvation for those to whom the Gospel has been proclaimed and who have had the possibility of asking for this sacrament.62 The Church does not know of any means other than Baptism that assures entry into eternal beatitude; this is why she takes care not to neglect the mission she has received from the Lord to see that all who can be baptized are “reborn of water and the Spirit.” God has bound salvation to the sacrament of Baptism, but he himself is not bound by his sacraments.

1260 “Since Christ died for all, and since all men are in fact called to one and the same destiny, which is divine, we must hold that the Holy Spirit offers to all the possibility of being made partakers, in a way known to God, of the Paschal mystery.” 63 Every man who is ignorant of the Gospel of Christ and of his Church, but seeks the truth and does the will of God in accordance with his understanding of it, can be saved. It may be supposed that such persons would have desired Baptism explicitly if they had known its necessity.
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Council of Valence, 855 A.D.
Can. 5. Likewise we believe that we must hold most firmly … that others, because they were unwilling to remain in the safety of faith, which in the beginning they received, and because they choose by wrong teaching or by a wrong life to make void rather than to preserve the grace of redemption, came in no way to the fullness of salvation and to the reception of eternal beatitude.
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Wannano said:
I agree, ad nauseum, but I would love if someone could explain it now in simple concise language.
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You do realize there is an infinite number of different scenarios, right? One simple explanation in concise language for all situations is not possible. The CCC quoted above covers all.

Peace!!!
 
No. He was engaged to and now married to a Catholic. Which is what brought me here. I wanted to find out what Catholics believe from Catholics instead of non-Catholics. I’ve stayed here for the theological and intellectual discussion.
 
Well, let’s just break that down for a moment.

In your faith, it’s a understanding of Jesus’ righteousness imputed with instantaneous salvation at the hour of your death.

In the Catholic faith, salvation is a process and we are ‘being’ saved as the scriptures say. And there is some sort of process in which we get cleaned up before entering heaven 1 Cor 3:15.

So Luther and the reformers say we are dung covered in snow. The Church says yes, you got the dung part right – but God turns that dung into a beautiful flower bed through infusion. The process starts here and is finished on the other side. How long or painful that is depends upon how holy or unholy you are. You becoming Catholic and cleaning up your soul could mean the difference between entering heaven a week after death or entering heaven a hundred years after your death.

We have had numerous saints throughout the years die and later testify to this. Even the eastern churches acknowledge it, though they don’t like labels so refuse to call it purgatory. So there is definitely incentive to becoming Catholic. But only if you take your faith seriously as wishy-washy Catholics will likely be in purgatory for quite sometime just like unholy protestants.

I would like to know what idolatry you are referring to? Maybe you could start another thread listing what you feel is idolatrous.
 
OddBird said:
Well, none. There is no magisterium, no authoritative teachings to which we are all supposed to adhere. There is, in my church’s ecclesiastical discipline, not a single provision made to deal with heresy.
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Yeah, I do not get why folks don’t see a problem with that. So essentially, Joe Parishioner down at St. Doubting Thomas Church on the corner can believe whatever he wants to believe – and ultimately infect others with that bad leaven.

So yeah, I would think an official confession of faith would be read and adhered to everywhere… and in the case of Joe Parishioner, if he spreads those unorthodox views, he be given a chance to recant. And if he refuses, put him out of the assembly.
 
Yes. It was kind of humorous. One side of the church knew what to do and how to respond to the readings. The other side…well we tried.😃
 
Kind of reminds me of when I went with some Catholic friends to St Peter’s in Rome for Christmas midnight mass as a college student when I was studying in Europe. I was the one who was a step late of everyone else in standing, sitting, etc as I tried in vain not to stand out. My Catholic friends didn’t seem to mind, though. They were understanding and just happy I agreed to attend with them. It was a memorable experience.

Just curious if your son agreed to raise any children as Catholic, as I heard that is supposed to be a stipulation when marrying a Catholic in a Catholic ceremony.

When my sister (a devout Presbyterian) married a nominal Catholic man back in the day, they married in the Presbyterian Church but a Catholic priest co-officiated along with her Presbyterian pastor. My sister and their kids continue to attend Presbyterian worship services whereas her husband occasionally attends but mostly doesn’t attend anywhere.
 
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Lenten_ashes said:
Well, let’s just break that down for a moment.

In your faith, it’s a understanding of Jesus’ righteousness imputed with instantaneous salvation at the hour of your death.

In the Catholic faith, salvation is a process and we are ‘being’ saved as the scriptures say. And there is some sort of process in which we get cleaned up before entering heaven 1 Cor 3:15.

So Luther and the reformers say we are dung covered in snow. The Church says yes, you got the dung part right – but God turns that dung into a beautiful flower bed through infusion. The process starts here and is finished on the other side. How long or painful that is depends upon how holy or unholy you are. You becoming Catholic and cleaning up your soul could mean the difference between entering heaven a week after death or entering heaven a hundred years after your death.

We have had numerous saints throughout the years die and later testify to this. Even the eastern churches acknowledge it, though they don’t like labels so refuse to call it purgatory. So there is definitely incentive to becoming Catholic. But only if you take your faith seriously as wishy-washy Catholics will likely be in purgatory for quite sometime just like unholy protestants.

I would like to know what idolatry you are referring to? Maybe you could start another thread listing what you feel is idolatrous.
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If you would read with integrity what I wrote, sincerely trying to understand what I was saying you would not suggest such a foolish action.
 
Tommy999 said:
Just curious if your son agreed to raise any children as Catholic, as I heard that is supposed to be a stipulation when marrying a Catholic in a Catholic ceremony.
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He hasn’t said but I assume he did agree to raise any children as Catholic. My daughter-in-law (and her family) are not nominal Catholics. They attend Mass weekly and my new daughter-in-law sings and plays piano during the Mass, at least on occasion.

They are still working out how to handle religion. To be honest, I’m shocked that my son hasn’t already told me he is becoming Catholic. However, when they last came home for the weekend they attended church with us and my son took communion with us. My daughter in law joined us in prayer when we took communion but didn’t take communion.
 
Tommy999 said:
Just curious if your son agreed to raise any children as Catholic, as I heard that is supposed to be a stipulation when marrying a Catholic in a Catholic ceremony.
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I do not believe that is a stipulation. I was some time ago, I believe now the non-Catholic is only to be made aware of the Catholic spouse’s promise/obligation to do so.
 
Lenten_ashes said:
I would like to know what idolatry you are referring to? Maybe you could start another thread listing what you feel is idolatrous.
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I don’t want to speak for Wannano, however the way I read it is that if Catholicism claims aren’t true then Catholicism has made an idol of itself. Basically, that if its claims aren’t true then it has elevated Catholicism to the point where being Catholic is more important than being “In Christ”.

Idolatry is basically having anything in your life more important than God. It is very possible to make religion itself more important than the relationship with God through Christ. I’ve seen Protestant/Evangelicals elevate their “church” to be more important than the one who the church is supposed to follow and serve, so this is not a “Catholic bashing” statement.

I can’t say for certain that is what Wannano was getting at, but that is how I read it.
 
Thank you Ian , I never had Catholic bashing in my mind at all. I am grateful someone sees what I was trying to say. I find it quite confusing trying to figure out what exactly the viewpoint of the CC is toward non-Catholic churches. I have this feeling that individuals within the CC have more intolerance and in some cases hatred toward nons way beyond what is described within the Catachiesm. Sort of like back in the 1500’s when we are told it was individuals within the CC not the Church itself that inflicted torture and death in the name of Christ.
 
For whatever it’s worth, my interpretation of those Catechism statements is that Protestants are to be considered fellow Christians by Catholics but to a lesser degree than with fellow Catholics or Eastern Orthodox — kind of like a spiritual half-brother instead of a full brother. Forgive me if this is a bad analogy but that is how I understand it.

This can be seen most clearly in Protestants not being allowed to take the Catholic Eucharist, which is considered “the source and summit” of the Catholic faith or participate in other Catholic sacraments like Confession. However, from a Catholic perspective, the only way for a Protestant to become full Christian brothers with Catholics is to convert to Catholicism. At least that is how I understand it.
 
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Christ’s Spirit uses these Churches and Ecclesial communities as a means of salvation. By baptism, Christians outside the parameters of Catholicism are joined in an imperfect communion with the CC. Together we are brothers and sisters in Christ.
 
Thanks for that.

I would say from a Catholic perspective, we don’t decapitate Jesus. By honoring His Church we honor Him as well since you can’t separate the two.

I like to say you don’t have to be Catholic to get to heaven but why not fly first class lol.

I would expound further on the idolatry issue. If we are incorrect about the Eucharist then it is indeed colossal idolatry.
 
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