Yes, we do. However, Catholics have received the Apostolic Teaching that Mary was not just a “vessel”,but a mother. She conceived Him in her womb, with her seed, bore Him, and nurtured Him as her only son. He was flesh of her flesh.
I find myself wondering why you are here at CAF Pat. You seem to be investing in forwarding your conviction that the Catholic faith does not come from God, and that Catholics have a deficient understanding of the Scripture. Does that summarize your goal here?
There is nothing to “answer” here, Pat. These scriptures were written by, for, and about Catholics. There is nothing in the NT that is not Catholic. All the books that did not adhere to the Catholic Sacred Tradition were excluded from the canon when it was closed in 382 AD.
No. We accept the Apostolic Testimony that Jesus was the only child of His mother.
Adhering to “a different gospel than the one we received” from the Apostles does, indeed, have a bearing on salvation. When we begin to determine for ourselves which parts of the Gospel are essential for salvation, and which are not, we begin to unravel the unseamed garment of the faith. Catholics are not at liberty to jettison what we have been given and commanded to hold fast, even if the majority of Christendom decides to reject it.
I would like to assume, and do, that he does not understand that what he has posted is comparable to one of the early heresies that was condemned by the Church.
Since most people that call themselves Christians are not Christians at all according to Jesus; it is safe to say that most Christians take the Bible for what it teaches in my opinion. Just my opinion based on what Jesus has told us as revealed in His Word.Point of order on numbers here. Don’t get me wrong: I think Mary probably had other children by her husband, too…but since NO Catholic does, and a whole bunch of other Christians agree with them, how does that translate into 'most Christians believe that Mary and Joseph had other children?"
M" just sayin, is all…
Diana, remembering that the number of people who believe a thing affects the truth of that thing…not one little bit.
Chapter and verse please “Mother of God”!Scripture says NO SUCH THING. This is another man-made tradition.
Unless you can show me where it says in Scripture “firstborn means more than one unless Scripture specifically says so.” Chapter and verse, please.
And can you tell me how there can be “firstborn males a month old” who have little siblings?
That line of argument comes from one who is not saved; that is easy to discern. Religion is what deceives as provided by the examples given to us in Scripture and Scripture tells us we can know for sure. So those that have doubts probably should and most people do. Many Christians have a hard time accepting the doctrine of perseverance even though it is explicit in Scripture. The self deceived can come in many forms but they always have a form of godliness, but their hearts are far from Jesus. The Bible tells the truth and that Truth tells the true believer they can know, but it is a blessing to be assured and has the opposite effect of those that can’t handle the truth of the doctrine, but what does this have to do with the topic? Do you really believe God keeps His children guessing?Well, I’m just sayin’, Pat, if there are those who* think* they are saved but actually aren’t, and you think you’re saved…
Which brings to mind an amusing exchange I read between apologist John Martignoni and a non-Catholic Christian:
Every believer in once saved always saved that I have ever met, also believes that there are those out there who think they are saved, but really are not – the faux believers, as I call them. So, ask anyone who believes in OSAS these questions (this is from an actual conversation):
Question: Are ther e people who think they’re saved, but they really aren’t?
Answer: Yes, there are.
Question: Are you saved?
Answer: Yes, I am.
Question: How do you know you’re not one of those people who think they’re saved, but they really aren’t?
Answer: I know in my heart that I am saved.
Question: Wouldn’t someone who thinks they’re saved, but really aren’t saved, say the same thing?
Answer: I suppose so.
Question: Then how do you know you’re really saved?
Answer: I just know.
Question: How do you know?
Answer: I just do.
The whole point of this line of questioning is that, if it is possible to think you’re saved, but not really be saved, then no one can have eternal security – no one can know for sure that they are saved – because anyone who thinks they’re saved could actually be one of those who think they are but really aren’t.
You overlook the truth and another possibility, that God manifested Himself in the person of Jesus the fully human and fully God man and chose to come into the world in the “likeness of sinful human flesh” through the birth canal of Mary in the Person of Jesus. God is omnipresent and eternal; He was with Joseph as much as He was with Mary while giving birth to Jesus - wrap you mind around that.
We are under the Apostolic command to hold fast to the Traditions that were delivered to us by our Apostles. We are not at liberty to jettison part of the gospel that was committed once for all to the church.
I would like you to answer this, because it may help me understand why you are here at CAF.
You are basing on emotions as stated in the first line and as for the facts; the fact is that God has said that the church is yet to be revealed and that the entire creations groans for the revealing of the “Sons of God”, the saints or the church. As far as lacking answer in a critical time in your life is another expression based on emotions and not on Scripture. The fact that Scripture leaves no doubts as to Mary and Joseph having other children is another example of not discerning the facts and gets back to my original point. I would say your greatest issue is that you have never dealt with your sin problem before God; but that is mere speculation on my part…I digress.agreed. but my conversion to Catholocism, was nothing short of miraculous. it was a strong combination of Facts, and experiences that led me to the Church. i truly believe in a called out Church. and this Church is the One started by Jesus himself. Catholicism is the only faith that is completely biblical, and keeps the traditions handed down to them by the apostles. also it would be a rather lengthy explanation beyond the doctrinal issues with protestantism, as to why i fell away. it was not as simple as just not being in agreement, and leaving. it was far more serious than that. they really lacked answers at a critical time in my life. Peace
No, Pat. You are confused. Miracles are divine intervention. Sometimes, people have emotional responses to miraculous events, such as conversion, but it is human nature to have feelings about supernatural acts of God, like the conversion of hearts. Miracles are based upon Gods mercy and grace - not feelings.
This is true, but it does not negate the fact that the Church is called out, and that it was established by Christ, and that He brings people miraculously into it.
Do you think that the answers to every problem in life are found in Scripture?
I can respect that you have no doubts about what the scriptures mean to you when you read them. We read them differently.
Is that why you are here on CAF, Pat? Are you here to let us poor ignorant Catholics know that we have been deceived by our Church, and that we have never dealt with our “sin problem before God”?
First of all, did you have to look up what the Immaculate Conception was to discuss this, Pat? I ask you to answer honestly and with integrity as a Christian.
Secondly, there is nothing wrong in having tributary conversations on the CAFs; they mimic real life dialogues which often diverge into more interesting discussions.
Thirdly, all Christians believed in the IC until the Reformation.
Justin Martyr
“[Jesus] became man by the Virgin so that the course which was taken by disobedience in the beginning through the agency of the serpent might be also the very course by which it would be put down. Eve, a virgin and undefiled, conceived the word of the serpent and bore disobedience and death. But the Virgin Mary received faith and joy when the angel Gabriel announced to her the glad tidings that the Spirit of the Lord would come upon her and the power of the Most High would overshadow her, for which reason the Holy One being born of her is the Son of God. And she replied ‘Be it done unto me according to your word’ [Luke 1:38]” (Dialogue with Trypho the Jew 100 [A.D. 155]).
Irenaeus
“Consequently, then, Mary the Virgin is found to be obedient, saying, ‘Behold, O Lord, your handmaid; be it done to me according to your word.’ Eve, however, was disobedient, and, when yet a virgin, she did not obey. Just as she, who was then still a virgin although she had Adam for a husband—for in paradise they were both naked but were not ashamed; for, having been created only a short time, they had no understanding of the procreation of children, and it was necessary that they first come to maturity before beginning to multiply—having become disobedient, was made the cause of death for herself and for the whole human race; so also Mary, betrothed to a man but nevertheless still a virgin, being obedient, was made the cause of salvation for herself and for the whole human race. . . . Thus, the knot of Eve’s disobedience was loosed by the obedience of Mary. What the virgin Eve had bound in unbelief, the Virgin Mary loosed through faith” (Against Heresies 3:22:24 [A.D. 189]).
“The Lord then was manifestly coming to his own things, and was sustaining them by means of that creation that is supported by himself. He was making a recapitulation of that disobedience that had occurred in connection with a tree, through the obedience that was upon a tree *. Furthermore, the original deception was to be done away with—the deception by which that virgin Eve (who was already espoused to a man) was unhappily misled. That this was to be overturned was happily announced through means of the truth by the angel to the Virgin Mary (who was also [espoused] to a man). . . . So if Eve disobeyed God, yet Mary was persuaded to be obedient to God. In this way, the Virgin Mary might become the advocate of the virgin Eve. And thus, as the human race fell into bondage to death by means of a virgin, so it is rescued by a virgin. Virginal disobedience has been balanced in the opposite scale by virginal obedience. For in the same way, the sin of the first created man received amendment by the correction of the First-Begotten” (ibid., 5:19:1 [A.D. 189]).
Tertullian
“And again, lest I depart from my argumentation on the name of Adam: Why is Christ called Adam by the apostle [Paul], if as man he was not of that earthly origin? But even reason defends this conclusion, that God recovered his image and likeness by a procedure similar to that in which he had been robbed of it by the devil. It was while Eve was still a virgin that the word of the devil crept in to erect an edifice of death. Likewise through a virgin the Word of God was introduced to set up a structure of life. Thus what had been laid waste in ruin by this sex was by the same sex reestablished in salvation. Eve had believed the serpent; Mary believed Gabriel. That which the one destroyed by believing, the other, by believing, set straight” (The Flesh of Christ 17:4 [A.D. 210].*
All 3 Christians believed in the immaculate conception? Is that all there were, three Christians? How do you know?
Irenaeus spoke heresy here and presumes that Eve was a virgin before the fall.
Tertullian makes up his own theology as well in this text, but who knows what the context of what he was trying to say?
Justin Martyr makes the same assumption that Eve was a virgin before the fall. It is more likely that God chose a virgin to come into the word to demonstrate as a sign that He is God and the church is referred to as a virgin. And in none of that do I see immaculate conception of Mary explicitly and maybe it is there loosely in an implicit fashion, but they are merely speculation just as I just did.
Any chance that we can set your speculations aside, and get back to the thread topic?
Now you are getting generations and texts far removed from Scripture and the Truth in many ways and adding of Scripture to which we are warned against. I’m sticking with Scripture; as to avoid such heresy and make God into a liar. God said no not one, all have fallen short. Mary said my God my Savior. Scripture is inspired of God and that I will listen to. This is beginning to make me nauseated in all honesty.
I deny you nothing. I have NO desire to do so and more importantly, I have no power or authority to do so.
Seems this is another one of those times you can’t entertain you could be incorrect.
Your lack charity is overwhelming; is this what you have been taught? I have an opinion and you have an opinion; are we only to express one opinion; is that the purpose for CAF?No, Pat. You are confused. Miracles are divine intervention. Sometimes, people have emotional responses to miraculous events, such as conversion, but it is human nature to have feelings about supernatural acts of God, like the conversion of hearts. Miracles are based upon Gods mercy and grace - not feelings.
This is true, but it does not negate the fact that the Church is called out, and that it was established by Christ, and that He brings people miraculously into it.
Do you think that the answers to every problem in life are found in Scripture?
It sounds like you think that Jesus founding a church to guide and shepherd His people was just a waste of His time, really. He could have left the NT instead, and saved himself three years of work training Apostles!
I can respect that you have no doubts about what the scriptures mean to you when you read them. We read them differently.
Is that why you are here on CAF, Pat? Are you here to let us poor ignorant Catholics know that we have been deceived by our Church, and that we have never dealt with our “sin problem before God”?
