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jmcrae
Guest
He put Peter in charge as chief shepherd of His Church. (John 21:15-19)
That of which Peter was put in charge, therefore, is Christ’s Church.
Peter’s successor is the Pope.
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That of which Peter was put in charge, therefore, is Christ’s Church.
Peter’s successor is the Pope.
A
awantz
Guest
God is my Supreme Pope and God is higher, has more power and authority, than the Pope.
J
jmcrae
Guest
God has put the Pope in charge of us.
If your boss puts a supervisor in charge of you to tell you what your tasks are each day, how do you think he will react if you keep going over your supervisor’s head? If you are continually nagging the boss to tell you things that your supervisor has already told you, and saying, “Well, the boss has more authority than the supervisor, so I will not listen to my supervisor. I will only listen to the boss.”
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Pryority7
Guest
God a liar? Far from it. In fact Scripture is clear that this application of renenacting the Last Supper in the form of the Eucharist was given to the Apostles, and they merely passed it on.
I could be wrong but am I correct in sensing that you have a “Bible Only” mentality? If that is the case then of course you would have a problem with this because the word “catholic” wasn’t even perscribed to Christ’s Church until decades later by one of the disciples of John the Apostle…a quite reliable source I may add…
P7
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jack_hawkins
Guest
This is a circular argument - the argument that the Catholic Church is the only church that has the Real Presence (applies to other claims as well naturally) is based on Catholic tradition which naturally no non-Catholic will agree with.
J
jack_hawkins
Guest
I am studying the RCIA at an Orthodox Church…
whose ideas about the faith are somewhat different from some opinions expressed here:thumbsup:
J
jack_hawkins
Guest
This figure gets bandied around like it is fact, but I have never seen any evidence it is not plucked out of the ether, and I don’t believe it for a minute. How can there be 30,000* different doctrines on the central important things - I don’t see how there can be?
Until someone presents some proof there are 30,000 distinct denominations, I will treat that figure as pure fiction.
*which of course isn’t necessay to have 30,000 denominations anyway, just 30,000 unique combinations of doctrine
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Syele
Guest
The figure came from a man who also said there are over 2,000 denominations of CATHOLICS and 30,000 included cults and other non-protestants… Feel free to use this info as you wish.
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jack_hawkins
Guest
AH!The figure came from a man who also said there are over 2,000 denominations of CATHOLICS and 30,000 included cults and other non-protestants… Feel free to use this info as you wish.
I see:thumbsup:
I
IanS
Guest
Very good!
So let me ask you this, is the one church which Christ established, authoritative, visible, apostolic, infallible on teachings of faith and morals, and consistent in doctrine?
If Christ is all the head, all of these must be true. Otherwise, Jesus is not the Son of God and was just a false prophet.
Are all Christian churches a visible sign of unity to the world?
Do all Christian churches have apostolic authority?
Are all Christian churches infallible?
Are all Christian churches consistent in their teachings of right and wrong?
Let’s say I want to know if embryonic stem cell research is moral or immoral in the eyes of Jesus and don’t know where to turn. So I go talk to my evangelical buddy and he tells me that the Bible is the sole rule of faith and morals as well the only source of all Christian infallibility.
So I crack open my Bible and can’t find a single word on embryonic stem cell research. What now?
Well, the infallible Bible does tell me that it is actually the Church that is the pillar and bulwark of all truth (1Tim 3:15), the final source of authority (Mt 18:17-18) as well consistent in teachings (1Tim 1:3).
So I open the phone book and to the “Church” section with listings for 396 different churches in my area:
Churches-Baptist (66)
Churches-Baptist-General (63)
Churches-Catholic (47)
Churches-Church Of Christ (22)
Churches-Church Of Jesus Christ Of Latter-day Saints (16)
Churches-Episcopal (12)
Churches-Lutheran (73)
Churches-Methodist (65)
Churches-Pentecostal (11)
Churches-Presbyterian (21)
Which one do I go to? Will I get the same answer from all 396 churches?
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IanS
Guest
Well okay… One denomination is one too many.
By the way, the Catholic Church is not a denomination. Every church that designates itself as being separate from the one, holy, apostolic Church Christ founded, is a denomination.
J
jack_hawkins
Guest
that’s your definition - not one that really helps IMO
the same thing has been said several times and completely misses the point
have you ever seen what fun they had deciding how long the Nile and Amazon rivers are? then you might understand why your argument seems laboured?
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IanS
Guest
The Bible is not explicit about there being one church???
John, chapter 10
16: And I have other sheep, that are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will heed my voice. So there shall be **one flock, one **shepherd
Ephesians, chapter 4
3: eager to maintain the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.
4: There is** one **body and one Spirit, just as you were called to the one hope that belongs to your call,
5: one Lord, one faith, one baptism,
Romans, chapter 16
17: I appeal to you, brethren, to take note of those who **create dissensions **and difficulties, in opposition to the doctrine which you have been taught; avoid them.
1 Corinthians, chapter 1
10: I appeal to you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree and that there be **no dissensions **among you, but that you be united in the **same **mind and the same judgment.
Philippians, chapter 2
2: complete my joy by being of the same mind, having the same love, being in** full accord **and of one mind.
Romans, chapter 15
5: May the God of steadfastness and encouragement grant you to live in such harmony with one another, in accord with Christ Jesus.
John, chapter 17
17: Sanctify them in the truth; thy word is truth.
18: As thou didst send me into the world, so I have sent them into the world.
19: And for their sake I consecrate myself, that they also may be consecrated in truth.
20: "I do not pray for these only, but also for those who believe in me through their word,
21: that they may** all be one; even as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee**, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
22: The glory which thou hast given me I have given to them, that they may be one even as we are one,
23: I in them and thou in me, that they may become** perfectly one**, so that the world may know that thou hast sent me and hast loved them even as thou hast loved me.
1 Corinthians, chapter 12
13: For by **one **Spirit we were all baptized into one body – Jews or Greeks, slaves or free – and all were made to drink of **one **Spirit.
BTW… The Bible is in fact equally explicit about Peter having primacy and being the “Head Among Equals”.
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jack_hawkins
Guest
There’s no verses that say there will be just one set of people given authority for perpetuity explicitly
you can argue all you like about certain verses, there’s nothing that explicitly lays out what many Catholics believe
it’s talking about the unity of believers
yes all Christians should be united, I totally agree with that, and that is explicit
I don’t see Peter explicitly being given primacy anywhere in the Bible
PS you have misapplied the first verse you quote
you can argue all you like about certain verses, there’s nothing that explicitly lays out what many Catholics believe
it’s talking about the unity of believers
yes all Christians should be united, I totally agree with that, and that is explicit
I don’t see Peter explicitly being given primacy anywhere in the Bible
PS you have misapplied the first verse you quote
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jack_hawkins
Guest
he is obviously important but I did say “explicitly” given primacy
the rock is arguably his faith, and the keys are arguably given to the church as a whole
the rock is arguably his faith, and the keys are arguably given to the church as a whole
J
jmcrae
Guest
John 21:15-19 seems pretty darned explicit to me.
How does one interpret this passage in such a way that Peter is not being made chief shepherd of the Church?
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IanS
Guest
Well that’s your definition (so how does it feel)
You cannot say there is NO evidence and you cannot say there is no way we are right for what we believe to be true:
Primacy of Peter:
Matthew, chapter 16
18: And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the powers of death shall not prevail against it. 19: I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."
Luke, chapter 22 – Jesus tells Peter to strengthen his brethren
31: “Simon, Simon, behold, Satan demanded to have you, that he might sift you like wheat,
32: but I have prayed for you that your faith may not fail; and when you have turned again, strengthen your brethren.”
John, chapter 21 – Peter is given Christ’s flock to shepherd
17: He said to him the third time, “Simon, son of John, do you love me?” Peter was grieved because he said to him the third time, “Do you love me?” And he said to him, “Lord, you know everything; you know that I love you.” Jesus said to him, "Feed my sheep.
Mark, chapter 16 – Peter is mentioned separate from the others
7: But go, tell his disciples and Peter that he is going before you to Galilee; there you will see him, as he told you."
Luke, chapter 24 – risen Jesus appeared to Peter first
34: who said, “The Lord has risen indeed, and has appeared to Simon!”
Acts, chapter 1 – Peter headed the meeting to elect Matthias
13: and when they had entered, they went up to the upper room, where they were staying, Peter and John and James and Andrew, Philip and Thomas, Bartholomew and Matthew, James the son of Alphaeus and Simon the Zealot and Judas the son of James.
14: All these with one accord devoted themselves to prayer, together with the women and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with his brothers.
15: In those days Peter stood up among the brethren (the company of persons was in all about a hundred and twenty), and said,
16: "Brethren, the scripture had to be fulfilled, which the Holy Spirit spoke beforehand by the mouth of David, concerning Judas who was guide to those who arrested Jesus.
Acts, chapter 2 - Peter leads the Apostles
14: But Peter, standing with the eleven, lifted up his voice and addressed them, "Men of Judea and all who dwell in Jerusalem, let this be known to you, and give ear to my words…
37: Now when they heard this they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Brethren, what shall we do?”
38: And Peter said to them, “Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
39: For the promise is to you and to your children and to all that are far off, every one whom the Lord our God calls to him.”
40: And he testified with many other words and exhorted them, saying, “Save yourselves from this crooked generation.”
41: So those who received his word were baptized, and there were added that day about three thousand souls.
Acts, chapter 3 - Peter performs first miracle after Pentecost
6: But Peter said, “I have no silver and gold, but I give you what I have; in the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, walk.”
7: And he took him by the right hand and raised him up; and immediately his feet and ankles were made strong.
Continued…
J
jack_hawkins
Guest
I will repeat “explicit”
yes Simon Peter was a pastor, one of the five fold ministries
I don’t see how these verses argue for a papal succession
yes Simon Peter was a pastor, one of the five fold ministries
I don’t see how these verses argue for a papal succession
I
IanS
Guest
Acts, chapter 5 – Peter inflicted first punishment
1: But a man named Anani’as with his wife Sapphi’ra sold a piece of property,
2: and with his wife’s knowledge he kept back some of the proceeds, and brought only a part and laid it at the apostles’ feet.
3: But Peter said, “Anani’as, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and to keep back part of the proceeds of the land?
4: While it remained unsold, did it not remain your own? And after it was sold, was it not at your disposal? How is it that you have contrived this deed in your heart? You have not lied to men but to God.”
5: When Anani’as heard these words, he fell down and died. And great fear came upon all who heard of it.
6: The young men rose and wrapped him up and carried him out and buried him.
7: After an interval of about three hours his wife came in, not knowing what had happened.
8: And Peter said to her, “Tell me whether you sold the land for so much.” And she said, “Yes, for so much.”
9: But Peter said to her, “How is it that you have agreed together to tempt the Spirit of the Lord? Hark, the feet of those that have buried your husband are at the door, and they will carry you out.”
10: Immediately she fell down at his feet and died. When the young men came in they found her dead, and they carried her out and buried her beside her husband.
11: And great fear came upon the whole church, and upon all who heard of these things
Acts, chapter 8 – Peter is first to excommunicate a heretic
20: But Peter said to him, "Your silver perish with you, because you thought you could obtain the gift of God with money!
21: You have neither part nor lot in this matter, for your heart is not right before God.
Acts, chapter 10 Peter receives divine revelation
44: While Peter was still saying this, the Holy Spirit fell on all who heard the word.
45: And the believers from among the circumcised who came with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on the Gentiles.
46: For they heard them speaking in tongues and extolling God. Then Peter declared,
47: “Can any one forbid water for baptizing these people who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?”
48: And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked him to remain for some days.
Acts, chapter 15 – Peter led the first council in Jerusalem
7: And after there had been much debate, Peter rose and said to them, "Brethren, you know that in the early days God made choice among you, that by my mouth the Gentiles should hear the word of the gospel and believe.
Galatians, chapter 1 – Paul visits Peter after conversion
18: Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to visit Cephas, and remained with him fifteen days
In several other places Peter’s name is mention separate from the others as well as speaking for them. If you understand anything abut the writings of that time you’ll understand why. Also, Peters name is mentioned 195 times, more than all the other apostles combined.
1: But a man named Anani’as with his wife Sapphi’ra sold a piece of property,
2: and with his wife’s knowledge he kept back some of the proceeds, and brought only a part and laid it at the apostles’ feet.
3: But Peter said, “Anani’as, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and to keep back part of the proceeds of the land?
4: While it remained unsold, did it not remain your own? And after it was sold, was it not at your disposal? How is it that you have contrived this deed in your heart? You have not lied to men but to God.”
5: When Anani’as heard these words, he fell down and died. And great fear came upon all who heard of it.
6: The young men rose and wrapped him up and carried him out and buried him.
7: After an interval of about three hours his wife came in, not knowing what had happened.
8: And Peter said to her, “Tell me whether you sold the land for so much.” And she said, “Yes, for so much.”
9: But Peter said to her, “How is it that you have agreed together to tempt the Spirit of the Lord? Hark, the feet of those that have buried your husband are at the door, and they will carry you out.”
10: Immediately she fell down at his feet and died. When the young men came in they found her dead, and they carried her out and buried her beside her husband.
11: And great fear came upon the whole church, and upon all who heard of these things
Acts, chapter 8 – Peter is first to excommunicate a heretic
20: But Peter said to him, "Your silver perish with you, because you thought you could obtain the gift of God with money!
21: You have neither part nor lot in this matter, for your heart is not right before God.
Acts, chapter 10 Peter receives divine revelation
44: While Peter was still saying this, the Holy Spirit fell on all who heard the word.
45: And the believers from among the circumcised who came with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on the Gentiles.
46: For they heard them speaking in tongues and extolling God. Then Peter declared,
47: “Can any one forbid water for baptizing these people who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?”
48: And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked him to remain for some days.
Acts, chapter 15 – Peter led the first council in Jerusalem
7: And after there had been much debate, Peter rose and said to them, "Brethren, you know that in the early days God made choice among you, that by my mouth the Gentiles should hear the word of the gospel and believe.
Galatians, chapter 1 – Paul visits Peter after conversion
18: Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to visit Cephas, and remained with him fifteen days
In several other places Peter’s name is mention separate from the others as well as speaking for them. If you understand anything abut the writings of that time you’ll understand why. Also, Peters name is mentioned 195 times, more than all the other apostles combined.
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