Non-Orthodox aware of the Orthodox Church?

[HomeschoolDad]

To what extent are non-Orthodox, especially if they do not live in a city where one exists, aware of the Orthodox Church, what she believes, and in what ways Orthodoxy is similar to, and different from, Catholicism and Protestantism?

I am thinking that if one knows of, let’s say, Greeks or Lebanese, they might have a vague idea that “they go to their own church”, but couldn’t tell you much about it, whether it is some exotic variant of Christianity, or perhaps even Jewish or Muslim. The word “Orthodox” might confuse some people. I am thinking that Orthodox Slavs would be better understood, in that they tended historically to cluster in industrial areas where other ethnic groups existed alongside them, and that at the very least, there would be some more or less nebulous awareness that they were apostolic, liturgical Christians. And not to be crass — that’s not my intent — but Slavs are pretty much indistinguishable from other “white people”, whereas Mediterraneans are very often darker, “foreign”, and “exotic” in the eyes of non-Mediterraneans. I have even heard Lebanese themselves make a distinction between “white” people and Lebanese, which struck me as bizarre, but that’s what they do. It’s also been a pattern that Greeks and Lebanese tended to have their own businesses, mercantile, groceries, restaurants, and the like, not totally unlike Jews, whereas Slavs generally didn’t do that.

 

[phil19034]

It’s also been a pattern that Greeks and Lebanese tended to have their own businesses, mercantile, groceries, restaurants, and the like, not totally unlike Jews, whereas Slavs generally didn’t do that.

Go to “Little Russia” in Philadelphia and you will see tons of Russian (and other Slavic) businesses.

but Slavs are pretty much indistinguishable from other “white people”, whereas Mediterraneans are very often darker, “foreign”, and “exotic” in the eyes of non-Mediterraneans

I’m sorry, but Mediterraneans don’t look more “exotic,” at least not biologically. Yes, SOME can get a sun tan easier, but that’s not everyone. The majority of the “exotic” look comes from the clothes, accent, and cultural aspects. Not really from their biology.

The truth is, Southern Europeans, North Africans and people from the Middle East (including Persians) are all caucasian.

Unless you consider “white people” to be only those with blond / light brown hair and blue eyes, I don’t think this is a valid argument at all.

Truth is, I think it’s just as easy to pick out someone from Eastern Europe based on their dress and mannerisms as it is to pick out someone from the Middle East or Mediterranean.

 

[Bithynian]

In Australia, most people would know that the Orthodox churches exists given that the large Greek and Serbian communities, but probably not much more beyond that.

I think most Australians are entirely unaware that there are Orthodox (whether Eastern or Oriental) churches whose demography is primarily Middle Eastern rather than south or eastern European.

 

[Inbonum]

To what extent are non-Orthodox, especially if they do not live in a city where one exists, aware of the Orthodox Church, what she believes, and in what ways Orthodoxy is similar to, and different from, Catholicism and Protestantism?

Well for start I am slav (Croatia). I am catholic and I know many Orthodox people but not in touch since high school.

In some periods of life I lived in community where half of them were orthodox, one part catholics and minority was protestant (Pentecostal Church), but church - both, catholic and orthodox- was far from home so we didn’t always have too much possibilities for mass etc.
I learnt about orthodoxy alot in school because almost half of classmates were orthodox and we knew they are different just because of nationality (since Orthodox Church is autocephal and connected to nation) and that was like public secret (because of our Homeland war in past there are still many tensions, even now, 25 years after end).
We knew that they have different priests than “our” (those with long beards), their religious education was separated from catholic and protestant, those children wouldn’t go in school for their feasts… Etc.

I was very aware of Orthodoxy in my environment, although today, when I look at it, it was not so emphasized then.
I would say that Protestant children were more aware of Orthodoxy than I and other Catholics because they (their parents actually) worked harder to convert other people.
Protestants knew very well where, (geographical area), Orthodox live, especially those who did not have their churches nearby and they would brought them to convert to Protestant communities which would be intentionally found in those regions. Orthodox were better target than catholics. Maybe because of some attitude “If you are Croat then you are a catholic and nothing else but if you are Serbian (Orthodox) then it is much easier convert you”-poor catechesis and faith matters are one step, Serbians as minority in country also and if there is no close orthodox church -protestant one is good replacement. Catholics wouldn’t go that way because of national questions.

There is a high awareness of Orthodoxy in Croatia and in the Balkan even when somebody doesn’t live close to them. In general I believe it is because of past wars and because of politics, noone who doesn’t live here wouldn’t understand these stories.

 

[phil19034]

To what extent are non-Orthodox, especially if they do not live in a city where one exists, aware of the Orthodox Church, what she believes, and in what ways Orthodoxy is similar to, and different from, Catholicism and Protestantism?

I think most Christians know they exist, but I also think that most people have no idea what the Orthodox believe. I also, doubt that most Christians realize that there are more “Orthodox” groups than just the “Eastern Orthodox.”

Knowledgeable Catholics typically consider the Orthodox to be out closest kin. While many of the Protestants who argue against Catholic theology don’t realize that the Orthodox believe almost everything they bash Catholics for.

 

[twf]

The truth is, Southern Europeans, North Africans and people from the Middle East (including Persians) are all caucasian.

Unless you consider “white people” to be only those with blond / light brown hair and blue eyes, I don’t think this is a valid argument at all.

You can’t really say “the truth is”. Caucasian is an arbitrary cultural construct…not an actual scientific classification. Racial classifications in general are cultural constructs and mileage will vary in terms of perceptions. Genetically, all living humans are very closely related…all Europeans and Asians even more so…the only place you’re going to find much of any real genetic diversity is in Africa…distinct African tribes can be more genetically divergent from one another than, say, an Englishman and a Japanese man…yet we arbitrarily lump all Africans together as the “black race”.

So what are “white people”? That’s a cultural perception question…and there is no one answer. I identify as “white”, as a Canadian of European descent. My friend from Nicaragua is as fair skin as they come…of Spanish descent…but she insists she isn’t “white”. Her skin is probably “whiter” than mine…but she does not self-identify as “white”.

 

[phil19034]

phil19034:

The truth is, Southern Europeans, North Africans and people from the Middle East (including Persians) are all caucasian.

Unless you consider “white people” to be only those with blond / light brown hair and blue eyes, I don’t think this is a valid argument at all.

You can’t really say “the truth is”. Caucasian is an arbitrary cultural construct…not an actual scientific classification. Racial classifications in general are cultural constructs and mileage will vary in terms of perceptions. Genetically, all living humans are very closely related…all Europeans and Asians even more so…the only place you’re going to find much of any real genetic diversity is in Africa…distinct African tribes can be more genetically divergent from one another than, say, an Englishman and a Japanese man…yet we arbitrarily lump all Africans together as the “black race”.

So what are “white people”? That’s a cultural perception question…and there is no one answer. I identify as “white”, as a Canadian of European descent. My friend from Nicaragua is as fair skin as they come…of Spanish descent…but she insists she isn’t “white”. Her skin is probably “whiter” than mine…but she does not self-identify as “white”.

I wasn’t talking about “white.”

I was talking about “caucasian” based on its international definition from anthropology. Even people from India are considered “caucasian” - even though many of them have dark skin.

The coloring of skin and hair is not what makes someone caucasian, but rather, some physical traits like bone structure, hair texture, etc.

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[twf]

I understand that, but its an archaic term and not as popular in academic circles…at least that’s my understanding…just because of how arbitrary it is. Classifications based on either shared cultural traits or shared genetic traits are now preferred. I don’t think the classifications of “Caucasoid” or “Negroid” are as important in contemporary anthropology as they once were…these sorts of classifications / definitions are always in flux. Like I said, “Negroid” in particular is especially arbitrary, as in reality that “group” has far more genetic diversity within it than there is among all other humans on the planet.

 

[phil19034]

I understand that, but its an archaic term and not as popular in academic circles…at least that’s my understanding…just because of how arbitrary it is. Classifications based on either shared cultural traits or shared genetic traits are now preferred. I don’t think the classifications of “Caucasoid” or “Negroid” are as important in contemporary anthropology as they once were…these sorts of classifications / definitions are always in flux. Like I said, “Negroid” in particular is especially arbitrary, as in reality that “group” has far more genetic diversity within it than there is among all other humans on the planet.

Yes, I know. But that wasn’t my point. My point was that attempting to ID people from the Mediterranean based solely based on their skin doesn’t work.

 

[HomeschoolDad]

HomeschoolDad:

It’s also been a pattern that Greeks and Lebanese tended to have their own businesses, mercantile, groceries, restaurants, and the like, not totally unlike Jews, whereas Slavs generally didn’t do that.

Go to “Little Russia” in Philadelphia and you will see tons of Russian (and other Slavic) businesses.

I said “generally”. Brighton Beach in Brooklyn would be another example.

HomeschoolDad:

but Slavs are pretty much indistinguishable from other “white people”, whereas Mediterraneans are very often darker, “foreign”, and “exotic” in the eyes of non-Mediterraneans

I’m sorry, but Mediterraneans don’t look more “exotic,” at least not biologically. Yes, SOME can get a sun tan easier, but that’s not everyone. The majority of the “exotic” look comes from the clothes, accent, and cultural aspects. Not really from their biology.

The truth is, Southern Europeans, North Africans and people from the Middle East (including Persians) are all caucasian.

I realize that. But eastern Mediterranean people typically — though not always — have dark, coarse hair, prominent, handsome facial features, and more body hair. To a small-town American, this would indeed look “exotic”.

Truth is, I think it’s just as easy to pick out someone from Eastern Europe based on their dress and mannerisms as it is to pick out someone from the Middle East or Mediterranean.

My son is Eastern European (well, half) and there is nothing whatsoever about his appearance that would distinguish him anywhere from Reykjavik to Moscow and then south to the Alps.

There is a high awareness of Orthodoxy in Croatia and in the Balkan even when somebody doesn’t live close to them.

There would be, in that part of the world. I was referring more to Americans, and in particular, smaller-town and more provincial people who haven’t traveled much, and who lack cross-cultural competence.

Knowledgeable Catholics typically consider the Orthodox to be out closest kin. While many of the Protestants who argue against Catholic theology don’t realize that the Orthodox believe almost everything they bash Catholics for.

Very true. A well-informed Catholic, or one who has grown up in someplace like, for instance, western Pennsylvania, is going to know. But otherwise, not so much. Even small towns have Greek restaurants, but I have to question whether many of the townsfolk could tell you what church the owners go to, what they believe, or what those icons near the cash register are supposed to signify.

I hope no one will find my comments offensive. I deeply admire the many Greek entrepreneurs whose businesses dot my greater metropolitan area. And I’ll never turn my nose up at a plate of spanakopita or a real Greek gyro.

 

[AlNg]

There is a high awareness of Orthodoxy in Croatia

Are Serbian Orthodox treated fairly in Croatia? And what about Catholic Croats in Serbia? Is there still some tension between the two? I knew a Serbian lady who was married to a Catholic Croat and they got along just fine.

 

[ReaderT]

To what extent are non-Orthodox, especially if they do not live in a city where one exists, aware of the Orthodox Church, what she believes, and in what ways Orthodoxy is similar to, and different from, Catholicism and Protestantism?

American in the Deep South here - not many Orthodox around. People know that Orthodoxy exists, and may know a few facts about it (e.g. Russian Christmas is in January / I heard about your church from My Big Fat Greek Wedding, etc.) But that’s the extent of their knowledge. Not much theological depth.

We’re working to change that, of course

 

[BartholomewB]

Unless you consider “white people” to be only those with blond / light brown hair and blue eyes, I don’t think this is a valid argument at all.

Here at CAF I once posted a comment saying something like, “When I visited Jerusalem, all the Palestinians I saw were white.” Several posters promptly "corrected " me, telling me, “No, that’s not what ‘white’ means.”

 

[BartholomewB]

In answer to @HomeschoolDad’s original question, I have learned something here at CAF that surprised me. Over the years I have been on friendly terms, in real life, with a number of Orthodox Christians, either Eastern or Oriental. They were all either Russians, Greeks, Syrians, Romanians, Serbs, or Bulgarians, or if not, they were the children or grandchildren of families that originally came from one of those countries. I had no idea, until I came to CAF, that there are many people who have become members of Orthodox churches despite having no family connection with any of the traditionally Orthodox nations. That was news to me, and somehow I found it quite surprising at first.

 

[HomeschoolDad]

HomeschoolDad:

To what extent are non-Orthodox, especially if they do not live in a city where one exists, aware of the Orthodox Church, what she believes, and in what ways Orthodoxy is similar to, and different from, Catholicism and Protestantism?

American in the Deep South here - not many Orthodox around. People know that Orthodoxy exists, and may know a few facts about it (e.g. Russian Christmas is in January / I heard about your church from My Big Fat Greek Wedding, etc.) But that’s the extent of their knowledge. Not much theological depth.

We’re working to change that, of course

Fellow Southerner here. In most cities of 30-50 thousand or more, there’s probably going to be at least a small Orthodox church, but rarely otherwise. The typical man on the street might know it exists, but that’s about it. Educated people would think of it as “kind of like Catholic”. Other people wouldn’t think much of anything.

I had no idea, until I came to CAF, that there are many people who have become members of Orthodox churches despite having no family connection with any of the traditionally Orthodox nations. That was news to me, and somehow I found it quite surprising at first.

These would be “seekers” who are interested in religious matters just on general principles — not finding what they’re looking for in any other church, they might stumble across Orthodoxy and say “hey, what’s this? — heard of it, don’t know much about it, think I’ll take a look”.

 

[Bithynian]

That was news to me, and somehow I found it quite surprising at first.

I still find it a little surprising. I’ve worshipped with Orthodox, I’ve studied with Orthodox, I’ve read theology and Patristics under an Orthodox bishop, and mission theology/evangelisation rarely ever arose in discussions, unless I - as a then-Anglican - brought it up as a point of reflection.

I suppose it’s an outlook that has largely been shaped by the particularities of Orthodox history: the annexation of many south European Orthodox territories by the Ottoman Empire and the significant penalties attached to evangelisation, the imposition of the Tsar-appointed Holy Synod (which replaced the Patriarchal office) in the Russian Orthodox Church and the subordination of theological interests to those of the state, etc.

Even today, from what I’ve read, there is still discomfort about Russian Orthodox evangelising to non-Orthodox, whether the latter are Catholics, Protestants or (most particularly) Muslims given the delicate ethnoreligious balance between many communities.

 

[BartholomewB]

These would be “seekers” who are interested in religious matters just on general principles — not finding what they’re looking for in any other church, they might stumble across Orthodoxy and say “hey, what’s this? — heard of it, don’t know much about it, think I’ll take a look”.

That’s not my impression. They seem to be people who knew what they were doing when they made that option, just as others make an option to become Lutherans or Baptists or Catholics — like me, for instance. I went through RCIA and became a Catholic back in the nineties, but I wouldn’t describe myself as someone who “stumbled” across the Catholic Church and said, “Hey, what’s this?”

 

[HomeschoolDad]

HomeschoolDad:

These would be “seekers” who are interested in religious matters just on general principles — not finding what they’re looking for in any other church, they might stumble across Orthodoxy and say “hey, what’s this? — heard of it, don’t know much about it, think I’ll take a look”.

That’s not my impression. They seem to be people who knew what they were doing when they made that option, just as others make an option to become Lutherans or Baptists or Catholics — like me, for instance. I went through RCIA and became a Catholic back in the nineties, but I wouldn’t describe myself as someone who “stumbled” across the Catholic Church and said, “Hey, what’s this?”

Well, that’s kind of how it happened for me. I knew there was such a thing as the Catholic Church, knew that they were a type of Christian that had a Pope and placed a large amount of emphasis on Mary, but not much more than that. Then I delved more into it, and said “This is IT! This is what I’ve been looking for, even though I didn’t realize it. This is what’s ‘wrong’ with all the other churches! Now it all makes sense!”

 

[ReaderT]

The typical man on the street might know it exists, but that’s about it. Educated people would think of it as “kind of like Catholic”. Other people wouldn’t think much of anything.

That’s exactly my impression also.

not finding what they’re looking for in any other church, they might stumble across Orthodoxy

That can definitely happen. Oftentimes the “stumbling” is not random but the result of their own study and research. So many Baptist/Evangelicals have ended up at our parish doorstep and their story is always the same: "I was disillusioned by my church and I started looking into the roots of Christianity… " Actually 3 young men in their 20s have come to our church with this story in the past year.

There is a a saying in Orthodoxy circles: “A Protestant is one history lesson away from Orthodoxy.”

 

[po18guy]

It is indeed curious. There is a Greek Orthodox Cathedral in Seattle. As of 5 years ago, the resident priest was a Methodist convert from California.

And there was Lutheran theologian Jaroslav Pelikan, scholar of the history of Christianity, Christian theology and medieval intellectual history Yale University. He authored a series of “Sacred Writings” detailing the major religions of the world. Surprisingly, he included the Deuterocanonical books in his edition on Christianity.

Not quite so surprisingly, He and his wife were subsequently received into the Orthodox Church.