North Carolina to Limit Bathroom Use by Birth Gender

[rae317]

What is the definition of a transgender woman? If it involves no more than a man saying “today I am a woman” then there is nothing whatever to stop men from walking into the women’s locker room at the local Y. That’s kind of the point: if a man claims to be a woman at any time for any reason he is presumed to be a woman - reality notwithstanding.

If you really think it is that easy for a guy to put on a dress and freely go into womens spaces, even in places where there are strong protections for gender identity like in washington, you should give it a try. Come back and let us know how it goes. Maybe you can get in the paper like the guy in seattle did. There are guys who do that with bad intentions, very few, and they are generally caught and prosecuted…but they will do it anyways protections or not. The thing is they are absolutely not protected from breaking laws in any state.

You may believe there is an argument for allowing “real” transgender women to use the women’s locker room, but the law cannot distinguish between “real” and “fake”. The law applies equally to both, therefore you cannot permit transgender women to do something without permitting men to do it as well

.

Right! Good point. I should be labeled and treated as a male sexual predator because there might be a few fake trans women out there who mean to harm people. I should be punished equally. Makes sense. Can we apply this logic to other groups of people? Like say the clergy? the Pope says 2% of the clergy are pedophiles, his words, - maybe we should have a law against men becoming clergy and getting into those positions of trust and authority where they can prey on unsuspecting children because we can’t tell the bad from the good - so we should treat all clergy as pedophiles.

The manager says he can suggest that this individual use the unisex private room, but he cannot force the issue. And, yes, the manager identified this individual as “a little too forward.” He does stare, and try to engage women in conversation, makes eye contact. If he had not openly stared me up and down I probably would not have said anything.

If the manager feels the person is a threat to the safety of others then he absolutely can make the person leave. It might be a bit hard to justify if it is only about someone trying to make conversation or eye contact though. I mean conversation and eye contact with other women in the locker room does happen from time to time. Staring… I just have to take your word that she was. I know when I get stared at it makes me uncomfortable to, so I would probably just avoid the person if that is the case. But it does not really sound like she has done much wrong? Other then looking the way she does.

I am interested to hear what you will say when a transgender individual is the victim of an assault. It goes without saying it will be a hate crime. (maybe then we will actually get some support on regulating who goes in the locker room - one silver lining.)

huh?? Do you think transgender people should be assaulted? Should it not be a crime? I’m a transsexual woman and have been harassed and threatened more then a few times. Never outright assaulted though, except came close one time by two guys at night when I was working making a food delivery, but I turned to stand up to them and they just threw some stuff at me and went away. Is that stuff alright to do because of who I am?

Men are stronger and more aggressive than women. It would probably either result in a verbal or sexual assault. At a minimum some pretty nasty glares, suggestive comments, or God knows, if you ended up next to someone bold enough, an advance

.

Trans men who take hormones (as most will) take on the muscle mass of normal men. Trans women on hormones loose 30% of their muscle mass. So in North Carolina this guy would be required to use the locker room with you - but that would not be uncomfortable at all would it?

It matters enough that we’re not going to buy into the lie that a man can become a woman.

Why should my life be dictated by your moral beliefs? You would eradicate us altogether. That is what you really want, for us to not exist.
And all this is pointless for me to argue here because most of you all will only see as a guy pretending to be a woman.

 

[Monkey1976]

Why should my life be dictated by your moral beliefs? You would eradicate us altogether. That is what you really want, for us to not exist.

No, we want you to seek treatment for your delusion that you’re “really” a woman. If I claim to identify as an Apache attack helicopter, I’m insane, because such a thing is a physical impossibility. It is just as much a physical impossibility and denial of reality to claim that one is a woman when one possesses fully male characteristics and no genetic abnormalities.

It’s not morality that is being defended - it’s reality.

And all this is pointless for me to argue here because most of you all will only see as a guy pretending to be a woman.

Enlighten us, then: What is the objective, immediately apparent, independently verifiable criteria for determining a person’s sex that overrides all other primary and secondary markers, including having birthed or fathered children? On a note more directly related to this article, how do women and girls in a locker room, shower, or bathroom verify that criteria with zero error within 30 seconds of the individual walking in?

 

[FollowChrist34]

I think there is often childhood trauma (sexual or emotional) that creates sexual identity disorders. It is not uncommon for the person to carry out similar behavior as an adult - by this I mean disordered behavior that traumatizes themselves and others. They have difficulty distinguishing emotionally between normal and abnormal behavior. Just my opinion, nothing else.

 

[Thorolfr]

So Indiana lost money despite immediately backtracking? That wouldn’t speak well for the graciousness of those who oppose religious freedom. Personally I don’t mind ‘losing’ money like that. A lot of corporate endeavors are really financed on the back of taxpayers directly or indirectly. Home grown business is real economic growth.

North Carolina should get used to losing money. I just saw this in the news:

Several groups have canceled conventions, and the state may lose next year’s NBA All-Star Game.

No big deal. I don’t like sports very much anyway and maybe the people of North Carolina don’t either.

And there’s this:

University of North Carolina system President Margaret Spellings, the former education secretary under President George W. Bush whose past criticism of same-sex relationships became a controversy when her UNC appointment was announced, warned that the law could endanger her system’s federal funding, hurt alumni giving and make recruiting the best talent harder.

Second rate universities, no big deal…

 

[Ender]

If you really think it is that easy for a guy to put on a dress and freely go into womens spaces, even in places where there are strong protections for gender identity like in washington, you should give it a try.

I asked a very specific question which you have not answered: what is required for a man to be considered a transgender woman? Is it anywhere defined? If I claim to be a woman does that legally make me one? Is there a legal requirement for me to dress the part?

There are guys who do that with bad intentions, very few, and they are generally caught and prosecuted…but they will do it anyways protections or not. The thing is they are absolutely not protected from breaking laws in any state.

How would you prosecute a man who walks into a girls locker room claiming that he is a woman? If there is no legal definition of what turns a man into a woman there is no ground for prosecuting him. I suspect that the simple fact that he claims to be a woman suffices to make him one in the eyes of the law, and there is nothing to prohibit a person from switching genders from one day to the next. I would be interested in knowing how this situation is handled in prisons. If a man in prison suddenly claimed to be a woman would he be transferred to a women’s prison? If not, why not?

Ender

 

[Joie_de_Vivre]

No, we want you to seek treatment for your delusion that you’re “really” a woman. If I claim to identify as an Apache attack helicopter, I’m insane, because such a thing is a physical impossibility. It is just as much a physical impossibility and denial of reality to claim that one is a woman when one possesses fully male characteristics and no genetic abnormalities.

It’s not morality that is being defended - it’s reality.

Enlighten us, then: What is the objective, immediately apparent, independently verifiable criteria for determining a person’s sex that overrides all other primary and secondary markers, including having birthed or fathered children? On a note more directly related to this article, how do women and girls in a locker room, shower, or bathroom verify that criteria with zero error within 30 seconds of the individual walking in?

Sadly there isn’t actually a cure and while there are therapies that purport to help all they tend to do is make them more likely to commit suicide ot get married have kids and now there is collateral damage when they transition.

I think there is often childhood trauma (sexual or emotional) that creates sexual identity disorders. It is not uncommon for the person to carry out similar behavior as an adult - by this I mean disordered behavior that traumatizes themselves and others. They have difficulty distinguishing emotionally between normal and abnormal behavior. Just my opinion, nothing else.

What does this have to do with the topic at hand?

 

[Thorolfr]

From the Guardian:

Ringo Starr has followed Bruce Springsteen in canceling a forthcoming concert in North Carolina in protest over the state’s newly minted anti-LGBT law.

The former Beatles drummer said in a statement: “I’m sorry to disappoint my fans in the area, but we need to take a stand against this hatred. Spread peace and love.”

The law, known as HB2, prevents transgender people from using the public restrooms that correspond with their gender identity, decreeing that all public institutions must post signs saying that bathrooms and locker rooms are to be used only based on biological sex. It also prevents municipal governments from passing anti-discrimination laws.

theguardian.com/music/2016/apr/13/ringo-starr-cancels-concert-north-carolina-protest-anti-lgbt-law

 

[pnewton]

I am all for state’s rights, so I guess intrastate commerce feuds are okay. I know there are some cities I will never visit because of the moral choices by the politicans here. Perhaps I need to examine the businesses headquartered there as well, if we are going to have separate economies in America based on politics. I bet the red states win such a contest.

 

[estesbob]

Neither involved transgender women.

In the first, that man is on your side! He did it in protest of transgender protection laws in washington - trying to make a point!

What the washington HRC had to say about it :

The second incident you cite did not involve trans women and what they did was illegal regardless.

durhams-access-to-capitol-304b8ef3-a58e-5132-e053-0100007f2528-375462871.html

“No true Scotsman”

 

[estesbob]

rottenscallop.com/35-year-old-new-bedford-man-self-identifies-as-pee-wee-footballer-dominates-league/

 

[stevegravy]

Ringo Starr has followed Bruce Springsteen in canceling a forthcoming concert in North Carolina in protest over the state’s newly minted anti-LGBT law.

The former Beatles drummer said in a statement: “I’m sorry to disappoint my fans in the area, but we need to take a stand against this hatred. Spread peace and love.”

The law, known as HB2, prevents transgender people from using the public restrooms that correspond with their gender identity, decreeing that all public institutions must post signs saying that bathrooms and locker rooms are to be used only based on biological sex. It also prevents municipal governments from passing anti-discrimination laws.

So Ringo and Bruce will not perform in North Carolina because they cannot use the women’s bathroom. Too bad.

 

[Monkey1976]

Sadly there isn’t actually a cure and while there are therapies that purport to help all they tend to do is make them more likely to commit suicide ot get married have kids and now there is collateral damage when they transition.

There isn’t a cure for epilepsy, but it’s still treated. There isn’t a cure for depression, but it’s still treated. There isn’t a cure for bipolar disorder, but it’s still treated.

The current treatment regime followed by the APA for a person believing they’re “really” the opposite sex is hormones and surgery to make them look as much like the opposite sex as possible. By that logic, if I claim to “really” be an Apache attack helicopter, I should be given a compliment of Hellfire anti-armor missiles, filled with aviation fuel, and painted olive drab as the best possible treatment.

What’s needed is to determine the best course of treatment for helping those under this delusion to accept themselves as they really are. Any psychiatrist would do exactly that if I walked in and claimed to be an attack helicopter, the Great Wall of China, or Napoleon. Why is it so different if I - a physically normal, fully functioning male with no genetic abnormalities - claim to be a woman?

 

[FollowChrist34]

If a 90 pound anorexic thinks she is fat, who are we to intervene? That is what she sees in the mirror, that is how she perceives herself.

 

[FollowChrist34]

What does this have to do with the topic at hand?

A lot.

 

[Thorolfr]

I think there is often childhood trauma (sexual or emotional) that creates sexual identity disorders. It is not uncommon for the person to carry out similar behavior as an adult - by this I mean disordered behavior that traumatizes themselves and others. They have difficulty distinguishing emotionally between normal and abnormal behavior. Just my opinion, nothing else.

I think that that the earth is only 6000 years old and that dinosaurs and humans lived at the same time and that Adam probably rode on dinosaurs. That’s just my opinion, nothing else.

Of course I can’t give any convincing evidence to support my opinion that humans and dinosaurs coexisted.

 

[estesbob]

I think that that the earth is only 6000 years old and that dinosaurs and humans lived at the same time and that Adam probably rode on dinosaurs. That’s just my opinion, nothing else.

Of course I can’t give any convincing evidence to support my opinion that humans and dinosaurs coexisted.

Of course there is!

 

[FollowChrist34]

I think that that the earth is only 6000 years old and that dinosaurs and humans lived at the same time and that Adam probably rode on dinosaurs. That’s just my opinion, nothing else.

Of course I can’t give any convincing evidence to support my opinion that humans and dinosaurs coexisted.

I am sorry to hear that. Unfortunately you are incorrect. The earth is much older than 6000 years. Dinosaurs predate the human species as we know it today - but our ancestors where there of course - little shrews, male and female identities intact, “breeders” if you will. That, ironically, is why you are able to sit there typing these posts about how narrow minded their descendants are. Shrews, yes, but they were pretty darn good at transmitting biological DNA.

View attachment 23102

World famous transgender warns against surgery: ‘I discourage them all’
Tennis star and eye surgeon Dr Renée Richards, born Richard Raskind in New York in 1934, is one of the best known transgenders. She tells others that her trangender surgery did not make her happy.

In a precedent-setting 1977 New York State Supreme Court ruling, Renée was declared legally a woman because hormones and sex reassignment surgery in 1975 had made “her” look like one. She was allowed to play professional tennis against other women who, unlike her, were born that way and did not possess Renée’s male skeleton, brain and upper body strength.

But her surgery and legal victory did not make Renée happy. She called the 2004 decision of the International Olympic Committee, which allowed transexuals to compete, “a particularly stupid decision”.

She said: “Better to be an intact man functioning with 100% capacity for everything than to be a transsexual woman who is an imperfect woman.”

In an earlier article, “the Liaison Legacy” in Tennis, Renée said of her sex reassignment surgery: “I wish that there could have been an alternative way … I would have been better off staying the way I was – a totally intact person. I know deep down that I’m a second-class woman”.

“I get a lot of inquiries from would-be transsexuals, but I don’t want anyone to hold me out as an example to follow. Today there are better choices, including medication, for dealing with the compulsion to cross-dress and the depression that comes from gender confusion. As far as being fulfilled as a woman, I’m not as fulfilled as I dreamed of being. I get a lot of letters from people who are considering having this operation … and I discourage them all.”

Renée’s early life experiences may have been the source of her gender confusion. Her autobiography Second Serve tells of a stressful childhood with a dominating psychiatrist mother who was disappointed that her first child was a girl. Richard’s older sister “Mike” was a tomboy who dressed her little brother in girls’ underwear, forced his penis into painful inversions and encouraged him to explore her body. Richard began to cross-dress in secret and invented an alternative identity named Renée.

In adulthood, Richard Raskind went to Yale medical school and became an eye surgeon, served in the US Navy, married, fathered a child and competed in US Open tennis. Then, after 10 years of psychoanalysis and a divorce, Richard (41) underwent surgery to become Renée. She now warns others with gender dysphoria not to take this drastic step if at all possible.

A national survey of more than 6,500 transgender people asked the question “Have you tried to commit suicide?” Forty-one percent answered, “Yes.”

“Chronically high stress levels,” “anxiety,” and “depression” are most commonly reported among active transgender people. Self-harm by cutting is often reported as well.

The suicide hotline for them, Trans Lifeline, handled more than 20,000 calls in its first nine months of operation alone. Greta Gustava Martela, a lesbian who founded the hotline, summarizes, “With 41% attempting suicide, you have to assume something’s just not working for transgender folks.”

The mainstream media attributes the exploding transgender suicide rate to outside influences, such as peer and parental rejection, but does not consider the transgender person’s tragic internal battle as intrinsic to living a psychological dichotomy.

The facts speak otherwise. The University of Birmingham’s Aggressive Research Intelligence Facility (ARIF) conducted a medical review that found that there is no conclusive evidence that sex change operations improve the lives of transsexuals. In fact, many transsexuals remain severely internally distressed and suicidal after the operation.

Chris Hyde, the director of ARIF, explained, “A large number of people who have [sex change] surgery remain traumatized – often to the point of committing suicide.”

 

[Thorolfr]

Neither of your quotes says anything about most transgender people suffering childhood sexual trauma.

 

[JimG]

Bruce Springsteen cancels a concert scheduled to be held in NC:

“The Boss” Praised by Men who think they are women

 

[FollowChrist34]

Neither of your quotes says anything about most transgender people suffering childhood sexual trauma.

You’re the one that is alleging the earth is 6000 years old, not me. It logically follows that you would argue against above as well. A lot of people believe what they want to - we agree on that, correct. I believe you accept that truth is relative?

ABSTRACT
Prevalence of Childhood Trauma in a Clinical Population of Transsexual People
Few studies have focused on the prevalence and extent of childhood trauma in the transsexual population. In our study of 42 transsexual people (34 = natal males, 8 = natal females), 55% (n = 23) reported experiencing an unwanted sexual event before the age of 18, with the average age of initial sexual contact being 13. This sexual event differs from other clinical populations in that the unwanted sexual experiences in this sample were the consequence of adolescents satisfying their curiosity about the gender of the transsexual rather than for their own sexual gratification. Consequently, the sequalae of the unwanted sexual touches in our sample did not lead to sexualised behaviours described in the sexual abuse literature of clinical samples. Our sample also reported being: verbally abused (77%), insulted (81%), embarrassed in front of others (55%), made to feel guilty by their parents (58%) before their fifteenth birthday.