Not attending brother's wedding

[VonDerTann]

I have read the “law on marriage” from the citation to Canon law.

It does not state - nor even suggest – that a marriage entered into a in non-Catholic Christian Church is a “sham” or that attending same is “celebrating sin.” It says nothing like that…

…which leads me back to my earlier post, which stated that such a position is unsupported in the eyes of the Church. It also doesn’t answer the question of whether a lady married in a Baptist Church is “unmarried” for purposes of being “pursued” by a Catholic man (because, of course, she’s not).

However, I respectfuly state that I will not alolw myslf to be dragged into a legalistc debate, since that only clouds the issue of whether not attending will cause real harm to people and their human relationships, which pretty much everyone seems to agree will ocur. Life is not a law book.

 

[iluvmybabies]

JMJ at the end the choice is yours and your family’s… I believe that if you go with arms wide open bless him with Bible quotes during his marriage might even help him want to come back, and take his wife with him, you don’t have to go to the reception or party at all, give him your blessings with the Bible and inform him that this is what the church strives for, and teaches, the word of GOD and who knows with you being there and showing him this it might encourage him you know?

If you decide you just can’t face it, then hopefully he will not take it wrong and you can still have a relationship with your brother…Hopefully!

At the end I pray that everything works out for the best…Your family is in our prayers! GOD Bless!

 

[Cristiano]

Really because this is what I found in the BIBLE oh excuse me if I quote truth:

"GEN 2:23 The man said, “This is now bone of my bones and flesh of my
flesh; she shall be called ‘woman,’ for she was taken out of man.”

24 For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to
his wife, and they will become one flesh."

That’s pretty much saying two become one, I don’t know how that’s modern mumbo jumbo?

And Jesus is the way, the life and the EXAMPLE therefore we are supposed to live by HIS EXAMPLE, and even though we don’t understand GOD nor Jesus doesn’t mean we can’t try and be like Jesus in HIS example of everlasting LOVE for one another, brothers, sisters, fathers, mothers, friends, strangers…etc…

I doubt Jesus wouldn’t have turned away from anyone, he never did, not even to the prostitute about to get stoned…

Can you please highlight the passage where it says that two should become one soul? Does that means that we are still married once we are dead? If one of the two spouses dies with his soul in a state of mortal sin does the other one goes to hell too, because it is one soul? To me the concept of two souls becoming one is new age mumbo jumbo, I still have to see any evidence about it from Scripture or Tradition.

If we live Jesus life by example how do we deal with the fact that He said that when people do refuse to hear the Word we have to shake the dust off our sandals and walk away. Should we ignore that?

My suggestion for the O.P. and talk to his spiritual director/confessor and obey him. If he tells him not to go, then he should not go. If he tells him to go, then he should go.

 

[iluvmybabies]

Can you please highlight the passage where it says that two should become one soul? Does that means that we are still married once we are dead? If one of the two spouses dies with his soul in a state of mortal sin does the other one goes to hell too, because it is one soul? To me the concept of two souls becoming one is new age mumbo jumbo, I still have to see any evidence about it from Scripture or Tradition.

If we live Jesus life by example how do we deal with the fact that He said that when people do not refuse to hear the Word we have to shake the dust off our sandals and walk away. Should we ignore that?

I don’t know if the OP’s brother has decided not to hear the word of the LORD from what I read in the OP original post was that he only wanted to listen to the BIBLE, not the church…He didn’t leave GOD he left the church…SO he’s not closed to hearing the word of GOD just seems confused about the church or which one he should be going to…

Well to me 2 become one is pretty much what I said…wether or not you want to hear it… your opinion is your opinion…All I know is that obviously you didn’t read what the OP put in the begining how her brother wants to only listen to the Bible not the church…Didn’t know that meant he didn’t want to listen to GOD?

 

[that_name]

FACT #5: We were confirmed Catholic when I was 38 years old. Our marriage is considered valid in the Catholic Church, on authority of one of the canon lawyers in my diocese. Why? Because of Fact #3. My “re-baptism” was my official departure of Catholicism, and so my marriage to my husband was NOT illicit NOR invalid. In fact, I wanted to have our marriage convalidated, and I was told it wasn’t necessary. Please note that I live in one of the most orthodox dioceses in the US.

So, the one thing that has not been made clear about this situation is whether or not the original poster’s brother has been “re-baptized” or not. I’m guessing that since most non-denominational churches reject Catholic baptism and insist on “rebaptizing,” this brother has officially ended communion with the Catholic Church, which means his marriage in that church could indeed be valid. Hence, it would not be sinful to attend the wedding and it could indeed be helpful later in building the relationship that will encourage this brother to return to the Church.

Canon Law fact.

If your marriage was prior to 1983, it fell under the prior code.

If your marriage outside the Church was after 1983, there was an allowance for “formal defection”. Since (as your case shows) canonists disagreed on what a formal defection WAS, the Vatican defined it in 1998.

Just a few days ago, this law was changed again.

So, you may or may not have formally defected, depending on the code in force at the time of your rebaptism. If it was after 1983, I’d suggest you have your marriage reviewed.

You can read more here

jimmyakin.org/2009/12/once-a-catholic-.html

 

[Cristiano]

Although it is not explicitly mentioned in the JP2 CCC, the Baltimore Catechism did in fact discuss this subject (see q. 1040):

gutenberg.org/files/14553/14553.txt

And the print versions did say that Catholics could not attend or even give gifts.

I’m also sick and tired of hearing this lame excuse to justify things:

As to the Baltimore Catecism, I read quite a bit, but it never really says one cannot attend a non-catholic marriage. It excommunicates a Catholic who gets married…although here you’ve got a person who says they are no longer still Catholic, so he probably would not care. Of course, the BC also says women should only approach the Blessed Sacrament with covered heads, etc. My point is simply that to say a non-Catholic marriage is a “sham” is inaccurate.

But the BC was interesting nonetheless. Thanks.

The Baltimore Catechism does not talk only about dogmas but also about disciplines. Disciplines can change as did Canon Law in the 80’s. The Baltimore Catechism refers to the previous Canon Law and the disciplines regarding marriage are slightly different. While it is a good first step to start with referring to the (any) Catechism it is also proper to use the Code of Canon Law as the final reference. Just as an example in the Baltimore Catechism you will find six precepts of the Church where one refers to the laws of marriage. In the compendium of the CCC you will find only five precepts and the one about the laws of marriage is missing. That does not imply that we do not have disciplines (Church Laws) for the marriage anymore.

 

[that_name]

Sin is sin.

For a baptized Catholic, marriage outside the Church without dispensation is grave matter. It is sin even if you spend 10 grand on flowers, dress it up in a white dress and have photos made, it is a sin even if it is broadcast in TLC’s “The Wedding Story”.

If you can find it in your heart to celebrate sin, then, I pray for you.

 

[Cristiano]

FACT #1: I was baptized Catholic. Wasn’t raised Catholic, but validly baptized Catholic.

FACT #2: Not knowing anything about Catholicism, I never practiced Catholicism and had no idea what any of the Sacraments were. None. What. So. Ever. Didn’t even know Baptism was a Sacrament.

FACT #3: I gave my life to Jesus when I was 24 years old in an evangelical church. I was baptized again because that church told me my Catholic baptism didn’t count, and I didn’t have any reason to doubt them.

FACT #4: I met my husband to be in the same church and we were married in the same church when I was 29 years old.

FACT #5: We were confirmed Catholic when I was 38 years old. Our marriage is considered valid in the Catholic Church, on authority of one of the canon lawyers in my diocese. Why? Because of Fact #3. My “re-baptism” was my official departure of Catholicism, and so my marriage to my husband was NOT illicit NOR invalid. In fact, I wanted to have our marriage convalidated, and I was told it wasn’t necessary. Please note that I live in one of the most orthodox dioceses in the US.

So, the one thing that has not been made clear about this situation is whether or not the original poster’s brother has been “re-baptized” or not. I’m guessing that since most non-denominational churches reject Catholic baptism and insist on “rebaptizing,” this brother has officially ended communion with the Catholic Church, which means his marriage in that church could indeed be valid. Hence, it would not be sinful to attend the wedding and it could indeed be helpful later in building the relationship that will encourage this brother to return to the Church.

This is an apple to oranges comparison. Your situation was quite different. You were moved away from the Church independently of your intentions. You did not have any knowledge of the Church. The bottom line is that you did not really made a choice when things happened.
However, this is the case of a 24 y/o that was raised int the Church, that received the sacraments and then decided to leave the Church. There is a formal procedure to leave the Church and if he decides so because of his conscience and not just because he wants to get married, then he can be dispensed by the disciplines of marriage that apply to all Catholics.

I am not a Canon Lawyer but I could understand why your marriage would be considered valid, and if the Church said that it is valid I accept it and I am really happy for you.

 

[tbcrawford]

"Jul 9, '07, 1:42 am
From Michelle Arnold CAF Apologist
Re: What are the rules for attending weddings?
In your own particular situation, we don’t know whether or not the wedding was presumptively valid because we don’t know whether the bride had the dispensations necessary to marry a non-Catholic in a non-Catholic ritual. Even presuming the wedding was presumptively invalid though, the Church does not explicitly forbid Catholics from attending invalid marriages and so Catholics must use their own prudential judgment in discerning attendance on a case-by-case basis. From what you’ve told me, it does not appear to me that you need to confess attending this wedding.

As for general rules:
Catholics may attend all presumptively-valid marriages of Catholics, non-Catholics, and non-Christians.
For Catholics marrying other Catholics or marrying a non-Catholic Christian or non-Christian, a wedding is presumptively valid if it is done in accordance with Catholic marital law. Catholics marrying non-Catholic Christians or non-Christians need a dispensation from cult to marry the non-Catholic party and a dispensation from form if they are marrying in a non-Catholic ritual.
For non-Catholics and non-Christians who are marrying other non-Catholics or non-Christians, a wedding can be considered presumptively valid if there are no known impediments to the marriage. The most common impediments that outsiders are likely to know about would be previous marriage, close blood relationship, or same-sex partners. If none of these impediments are known to exist, a prospective guest may presume that the wedding will be valid.
The Church does not explicitly forbid Catholics from attending presumptively-invalid marriages. Catholics must use their own prudential judgment in making the decision, keeping in mind the need to uphold the Catholic understanding of the sanctity of marriage. One rule of thumb that may be helpful in making such decisions might be to ask yourself if you believe the couple is doing the best that they can to act honorably and according to the truth that they have. So, for example, you might decide to attend the presumptively-invalid wedding of a couple who is expecting a child; but decline to attend the presumptively-invalid wedding of a couple who have engaged in adultery and destroyed previous marriages and families.
While there may be just reason to attend a particular wedding that will be presumptively-invalid, I cannot recommend participating as a member of the wedding party in such weddings. There is a difference between attending as a non-participating observer and actively involving yourself in the wedding as an honor attendant.
If you are not attending the wedding as a matter of principle, then I cannot recommend attending a reception or giving a gift to honor an occasion that you believe in conscience that you cannot celebrate. I do recommend though writing the couple a letter in which you express your love and that you will pray for them. (If prudence suggests it, it is fine to withhold from them what you will be praying to God that they obtain, such as the grace of repentance and conversion.)
In the case of same-sex partners, the Church has spoken so strongly against “same-sex marriage” that I cannot recommend attending or celebrating “same-sex weddings” under any circumstances.
Recommended reading:"

Should I Attend?

---

“If anyone comes to me, I want to lead them to Him.” --St. Edith Stein

Recent apologetics answers by Michelle Arnold

Thought this would help!

 

[Norseman82]

I don’t know if the OP’s brother has decided not to hear the word of the LORD from what I read in the OP original post was that he only wanted to listen to the BIBLE, not the church…He didn’t leave GOD he left the church…SO he’s not closed to hearing the word of GOD just seems confused about the church or which one he should be going to…

Well to me 2 become one is pretty much what I said…wether or not you want to hear it… your opinion is your opinion…All I know is that obviously you didn’t read what the OP put in the begining how her brother wants to only listen to the Bible not the church…Didn’t know that meant he didn’t want to listen to GOD?

For a Catholic, that is the same thing. The Church has been delegated to speak for God. That should go without saying on a Catholic forum.

 

[tbcrawford]

Should I Attend?

Issue: Does the Catholic Church prohibit Catholics from attending weddings that the Church does not recognize? If a Catholic is invited to such a wedding and can attend, is it permissible for him to be in the wedding party?

Response: The Catholic Church does not explicitly prohibit Catholics from attending weddings whose validity she does not recognize. There are certain moral principles, however, that should be considered before a Catholic decides how to proceed. Most importantly, Catholics must avoid any actions that cause scandal or encourage others to sin.

Discussion: In today’s society, many couples live together before marriage, and divorce and remarriage are common. In addition, many Catholics marry outside the Church. Couples in these situations commit the sins of fornication, adultery, or both. Because of these objectively sinful circumstances, Christians are often left in a quandary when they are invited to weddings the Church does not recognize, particularly when friends or relatives are involved. The way in which one prayerfully responds to these invitations must witness to the truths taught by Christ. Our actions must encourage and promote the salvation of all.

Moral Principles

Everything we do must encourage and provide for our salvation and the salvation of others. We must be in the world, but not of the world (cf. Jn. 17:15-19). By our participation in the lives of others, we must be salt of the earth and witness to the truths of Christ and His Church (Mt. 5:13). When we provide for our salvation and the salvation of others, we fulfill the two great commandments: to love God with our whole heart, mind and soul, and to love our neighbor as ourselves for the love of God (cf. Mt. 22:37-40). We must take care, however, not to become “flat salt.” As our Lord says:

You are the salt of the earth; but if salt has lost its taste, how shall its saltness be restored? It is no longer good for anything except to be thrown out and trodden under foot by men. You are the light of the world. A city set on a hill cannot be hid. Nor do men light a lamp and put it under a bushel, but on a stand, and it gives light to all in the house. Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works and give glory to your Father who is in heaven (Mt. 5:13-16).

The example given by Christ is noteworthy. He did not hesitate to associate Himself with sinners (Phil. 2:4-8). Though God, He took our human nature upon Himself, becoming like us in all ways except sin. He brought us truth in a way that we can easily understand. In this same way, we must not hesitate to associate ourselves with fellow sinners. However, we must take care to avoid sin and scandal.

 

[Cristiano]

I don’t know if the OP’s brother has decided not to hear the word of the LORD from what I read in the OP original post was that he only wanted to listen to the BIBLE, not the church…He didn’t leave GOD he left the church…SO he’s not closed to hearing the word of GOD just seems confused about the church or which one he should be going to…

Well to me 2 become one is pretty much what I said…wether or not you want to hear it… your opinion is your opinion…All I know is that obviously you didn’t read what the OP put in the begining how her brother wants to only listen to the Bible not the church…Didn’t know that meant he didn’t want to listen to GOD?

Are you a protestant? I do not want to get in a discussion about Scripture and Tradition. I simply want to say that to us Catholics the Word of God comes from both and that is why when one Catholic rejects the Church that was instituted by Jesus we say that the individual is rejecting the Word of God. That does not apply in such a simplistic way to protestants because they might have not received all the teachings that the Catholics receive and this is why they have a different understanding of the concept of Church.

I am also asking if you are a protestant because if you follow “sola scriptura” then the Bible says one flesh and the reference you gave me, and that is why I am looking at the Biblical reference for two souls becoming one. The Catholic Church does not teach that two souls become one it also goes against out understanding of Genesis.

 

[Cristiano]

Should I Attend?

Issue: Does the Catholic Church prohibit Catholics from attending weddings that the Church does not recognize? If a Catholic is invited to such a wedding and can attend, is it permissible for him to be in the wedding party?

Response: The Catholic Church does not explicitly prohibit Catholics from attending weddings whose validity she does not recognize. There are certain moral principles, however, that should be considered before a Catholic decides how to proceed. Most importantly, Catholics must avoid any actions that cause scandal or encourage others to sin.

Discussion: In today’s society, many couples live together before marriage, and divorce and remarriage are common. In addition, many Catholics marry outside the Church. Couples in these situations commit the sins of fornication, adultery, or both. Because of these objectively sinful circumstances, Christians are often left in a quandary when they are invited to weddings the Church does not recognize, particularly when friends or relatives are involved. The way in which one prayerfully responds to these invitations must witness to the truths taught by Christ. Our actions must encourage and promote the salvation of all.

Moral Principles

Everything we do must encourage and provide for our salvation and the salvation of others. We must be in the world, but not of the world (cf. Jn. 17:15-19). By our participation in the lives of others, we must be salt of the earth and witness to the truths of Christ and His Church (Mt. 5:13). When we provide for our salvation and the salvation of others, we fulfill the two great commandments: to love God with our whole heart, mind and soul, and to love our neighbor as ourselves for the love of God (cf. Mt. 22:37-40). We must take care, however, not to become “flat salt.” As our Lord says:

You are the salt of the earth; but if salt has lost its taste, how shall its saltness be restored? It is no longer good for anything except to be thrown out and trodden under foot by men. You are the light of the world. A city set on a hill cannot be hid. Nor do men light a lamp and put it under a bushel, but on a stand, and it gives light to all in the house. Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works and give glory to your Father who is in heaven (Mt. 5:13-16).

The example given by Christ is noteworthy. He did not hesitate to associate Himself with sinners (Phil. 2:4-8). Though God, He took our human nature upon Himself, becoming like us in all ways except sin. He brought us truth in a way that we can easily understand. In this same way, we must not hesitate to associate ourselves with fellow sinners. However, we must take care to avoid sin and scandal.

I think that this a very good example on what the OP should mediate and pray upon. The OP cannot get a good final answer from this forum because while Catholics must avoid moral relativism they also have to put things in the proper context. We do not have all the information about the spiritual maturity of all the individuals involved and of all the critical facts.

 

[Sparki777]

THAT_NAME:

I did have my marriage investigated. I thought I made it clear. A canon lawyer looked at our situation. I was married in 1994. I really, really, really wanted our marriage to be convalidated because I wanted an official confirmation that our marriage was valid, and I was told it didn’t have to be done. Then I asked if it could be convalidated anyway, even if it wasn’t required and I was refused again.

Again, do ANY of us know if this brother has formally left the Church, according to whatever provisions apply? I haven’t seen a word saying one way or another. And if he has formally left the Church – like I did or in another way – then it’s entirely possible for his pending marriage in the non-denominational church to be valid and for a Catholic to attend that marriage without sinning.

 

[JMJ01]

Thank you all very much for responding and giving your insight. Appreciate it very much.

 

[Apryl]

Thank you all very much for responding and giving your insight. Appreciate it very much.

You will let us know what you do… and your parents.

What is the wedding date, btw?

 

[JMJ01]

You will let us know what you do… and your parents.

What is the wedding date, btw?/QUOTE

The wedding is July 17, 2010. We will see what happens. I just hope he comes around sometimes and sees the Truth he is missing out on.

 

[Apryl]

The wedding is July 17, 2010. We will see what happens. I just hope he comes around sometimes and sees the Truth he is missing out on.

We can ALL pray for that.

It can happen. Let’s put in a ‘call’ to St. Monica!

 

[LShymoniak]

My husband recently read your post to me, so I have joined this forum in order to respond, as I found it very distressing. Throughout my experience of being Catholic (which has been from birth), many parish priests have indicated the only way to bring someone back to the faith is through love and prayer. If you and your parents boycott his wedding, you are presenting the ‘wrong’ image’ of a truly loving and forgiving Christian. I am a firm believer that we must show Christ through our actions, and this ‘rejection’ of his marriage, whether in the church or not, is definitely not Christ like. I have seen families get torn apart because of similar situations. It is just not worth it. I wish you all the best in what ever decision you make. God Bless.

 

[former_Catholic]

Hello. My brother has been Catholic his whole 24 years of life until now. He wrote my mom and dad a letter stating he is no longer Catholic and the Catholic Church’s beliefs are not correct. He thinks all you need is the Bible which is bull because no where in the Bible does it say “Bible alone” and that is all. Anyways, he is getting married in a non-denominational bible church. My parents and I have informed him we will not be attending the wedding. We told him we love him very much but we just do not feel we can be there. To us, that would say we are condoning what he is doing. What he is doing is totally wrong. I was just wanting to know anyone else’s opinion. It is not easy deciding not to attend but I believe it is best. Any other thoughts? Thanks.

I totally agree that you should not attend his wedding. That would be best.
If he and his wife invite you for dinner or Easter or 4th of July or Thanksgiving or Christmas or New Years you likewise shouldn’t attend. You wouldn’t want them to think that you approve of them living in a non-sacramental, non-Catholic marriage.
If they have a child you shouldn’t celebrate the birth or the christening. That would be best. You certainly would not want to look like you approve of their non-Catholic, non-sacramental union having produced a child, and their raising their child in some non-Catholic non-denominational church.
If your brother is ever hospitalized, you should not visit him. Unless he is hospitalized in a Catholic hospital, visiting him would be condoning a hospital that wasn’t Catholic and therefore probably performs sterilizations and abortions.
If he ever ends up in jail for any reason, you should also not visit him. That would be best. You certainly would not want to look like you condoned whatever behavior caused him to have ended up in jail; it would be a terrible reflection on you and your family.
If he gets hit by a car and dies, you shouldn’t go to his funeral. That would be best. His grieving widow is not going to give him a proper Catholic burial. You certainly wouldn’t want to condone his dying without repenting, without last rites, and without a proper Catholic funeral, for gosh sakes.

You say that you love your brother, but your brother has turned his back on the Catholic Church and so what he is doing is wrong. You yourself would never turn your back on the Catholic Church, of course not… nor would you ever bother actually reading nor obeying the Catechism of the Catholic Church which states very specifically:
(818) “All who have been justified by faith in baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church.”

I’m proud of your brother for showing you the love, honor, and respect of having invited you to share his joy on his wedding day but I totally agree with you that you should not attend any wedding if all you can share with your brother is your own ignorance of your own religion.