Not attending brother's wedding

[former_Catholic]

Yes, it was quite obvious that he was being sarcastic, but what I proposed is simply following his logic and moving a step forward. He appears to say that if someone is so mean to disagree with a wedding, then he is not a real loving Christian and should stay home.

I was not being sarcastic. I was simply following the “I’m not going to the wedding because I don’t approve of the marriage” routine to its typical conclusion observed in this town.

I truly wouldn’t want any guy who did not approve of my marriage in my house on holidays, would YOU? What FOR? He doesn’t share my joy.
I truly wouldn’t *want *any guy who did not approve of my marriage anywhere near my children, would YOU? What FOR? He doesn’t share my values.
I truly wouldn’t want any guy who did not approve of my marriage to visit me in the hospital, would YOU?. What FOR? Heck, I don’t need any more pain than I’ve got.
I truly wouldn’t *want *anyone who did not approve of my marriage to visit me in jail, would YOU? What FOR? Heck, I don’t need any more grief than I’ve got.
and most of all, I truly would NEVER want anyone who did not approve of my marriage to visit me when I am grieving, would YOU? What FOR? What on earth FOR?

If you honestly cannot share a man’s joy, he certainly doesn’t need you around to tie up and darken all his celebrations and holidays, nor share his pain by increasing it.
If you honestly cannot respect his decision to leave the Catholic Church to join and marry within another Christian denomination (or non-denomination) which you are clearly instructed by the Catechism to respect in a spirit of Christian brotherhood by virtue of their baptism and adherence to the teachings of Christ you have absolutely no business whatsoever showing up and raining on their wedding parade like some sort of crazed cultist more interested in CONTROLLING than RESPECTING these people, their chosen Christian church, and all those others present in attendance and celebration.

 

[Abeille]

Yes, it was quite obvious that he was being sarcastic, but what I proposed is simply following his logic and moving a step forward. He appears to say that if someone is so mean to disagree with a wedding, then he is not a real loving Christian and should stay home.

I am also puzzled by the logic of someone that identifies himself from what he is not. Would you identify yourself a a former toddler? What does it say of you? To me just shows antagonism toward what is Catholic, pretending to infer of knowing what the Catholic Church teaches and then criticizing a person for trying to figure out what is charitable and morally correct.

With the utmost respect to you and your position, I would like to point out that simply because he identifies himself as a ‘former catholic’ does not mean that he does not understand what the Faith teaches. That is akin to saying that a frog has no clue what it is like to be a tadpole.
If the OP wished to have an “offical” reply, he would have posted this question to the Ask an Apologist section. However, this is a place for discussion and former catholic supported his advice with what he thought was relevant.

I would advise the OP to seek advice from his priest, if he is uncertain. From what I’ve read, and from Michelle Arnold, someone whose opinions I respect, it does not appear to me that it would be incorrect or wrong to attend. I should think that it would be more likely to eventually lead him back to the church.

 

[lifetree]

… People can be validly married in non Catholic Churches, they can even be validly married by a government official. …

Be VERY careful with this assertion … if his brother was baptized Catholic and has not renounced his Catholic faith by “a public act” … then this is not correct !! Further, the provision of the 1983 Code of Canon Law which allowed someone to renounce their Catholic faith and validly marry outside the Church appears to be changing … I read where Benedict XVI promulgated changes to the Code regarding this on December 15, 2009.

I would recommend that a family member consult the parish priest for advice on this situation.

 

[bekalc]

Be VERY careful with this assertion … if his brother was baptized Catholic and has not renounced his Catholic faith by “a public act” … then this is not correct !! Further, the provision of the 1983 Code of Canon Law which allowed someone to renounce their Catholic faith and validly marry outside the Church appears to be changing … I read where Benedict XVI promulgated changes to the Code regarding this on December 15, 2009.

I would recommend that a family member consult the parish priest for advice on this situation.

I want to make it clear in my earlier posts. That I don’t disagree necessarily with the Church’s decision here. I mean a part of me does think that a Catholic who is apart from the Church, is in a spirtually not so great place to begin with, so how can they make a decision as serious as marriage and have it be completely binding?

This being said however, I also don’t like the idea of calling such marriages fornication either it seems to me just different. I think that God looks at the intentions of the heart too. I know that my Campus pastor when I was a Protestant was a former Catholic. He wasn’t really raised in the Church at all atlhough he did get confirmed and started going to church as a kid. He said he felt good going to Church… Later on he completely fell away and his life was a mess (he was in alcholic, out of school in eighth grade.) He fell in love with a girl who was Methodist and whose parents were like my daughter is not marrying a Catholic. And so he was like well whats the difference between being a Methodist or a Catholic if I don’t go to Church either way. So he switched to Methodism. He and his wife didn’t go to Church, and things were not good. Until one day he went a revival service and accepted Christ into his heart. His wife heard about it that night and did the same. He was cured of his alcoholism, and one day he felt God’s call to be a Pastor. God really used those two greatly. I can pray that eventually he’ll go back to the Church of course, and well I do know he’s unhappy with the liberalism of Methodism… So you never know.

 

[that_name]

You know, we can never understand why some people can become heretics or apostates and still “feel God” - God also has raised people from the dead, that does not mean that i am going to bank on it and go jump in front of a bus.

God gave us the Catholic Church. That Church shows us the way. Some may find the way when they reject His Church. That does not mean we should encourage or celebrate when people reject His Church.

 

[tweetymom]

You know, we can never understand why some people can become heretics or apostates and still “feel God” - God also has raised people from the dead, that does not mean that i am going to bank on it and go jump in front of a bus.

God gave us the Catholic Church. That Church shows us the way. Some may find the way when they reject His Church. That does not mean we should encourage or celebrate when people reject His Church.

Sure am glad that God is our judge.

 

[that_name]

Sure am glad that God is our judge.

And He IS a judge, not a pink fluffy bunny rabbit santa clause marshmallow.

 

[tweetymom]

And He IS a judge, not a pink fluffy bunny rabbit santa clause marshmallow.

Really

 

[Lauds]

Absolutely go. Your brother knows how you feel. Family is family. If you ever want to be in a position to help him (if he wants) to come back to the Church, you can’t shut him out now.

Go.

John

Very Good advice!

 

[Cracker_Mom]

Really

Really, truly…

 

[tweetymom]

Really, truly…

Who said anything about a pink bunny

 

[Cracker_Mom]

Who said anything about a pink bunny

that_name did.
It’s New Year’s. It’s OK to be a bit silly.
Hope you all have a blessed 2010. Appreciate when I have time to check in @ CAF. I learn a lot. Don’t always agree with every post but I learn something.
God bless!

 

[bekalc]

You know, we can never understand why some people can become heretics or apostates and still “feel God” - God also has raised people from the dead, that does not mean that i am going to bank on it and go jump in front of a bus.

God gave us the Catholic Church. That Church shows us the way. Some may find the way when they reject His Church. That does not mean we should encourage or celebrate when people reject His Church.

If you know that the Catholic Church is God’s Church and you choose to reject it-than you are in mortal sin. Some of the people though who have left the Church-don’t really know that they are rejecting God’s Church. In the case of the campus Pastor I mentioned, his mother was Catholic, his father wasn’t. And the priest came down on the relationship, so she stopped attending mass etc…He didn’t even step foot into a Catholic church later on until he met some friends in Junior high and would attend Church with their family (that’s how he got confirmed)… That was the entire formation he got. He lived a sinful life, until the day he heard that preacher speak at the revival service and than he choose to dedicate his life to Christ?

The point I’m making is I don’t think he ever really realized or truly believed that the Catholic :Church was Christ’s Church. I don’t think he was setting out to leave Christ’s Church (although of course I cannot judge minds) and God knows that. God’s Grace is so huge that he will reach people who are seeking Him-by any means available.

 

[Fidelis_Unus]

…Catholics do not use CCC as “sola scriptura”

No, but we do acknowledge that the CCC supersedes the Baltimore Catechism.

If I am correct in following your logic you are saying that if I had a daughter who was trying to have an abortion I should escort her to Planned Parenthood because she might feel isolated from the rest of the family if I were not there! Am I correct in thinking that from your point of view that would not be loving?

This is not a fair comparison at all. Perhaps, if he were walking down the aisle with his brother and serving as a witness, it might be similar. Regardless, you are talking apples and oranges. Perhaps a less painful, volatile comparison would be more helpful.

I have had experience with the situation you describe and with the OP’s situation (and do not want to discuss Abortion here). My experience is that these situations are very, very different

Whatever the situation, we are to seek counsel (ideally from a priest) and then, follow our own conscience. For this reason I especially like the reading Teresa used. In Matthew Jesus did not say, condemn them to hell and harass them with the Truth, he said, “… Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works and give glory to your Father who is in heaven.” (Mt. 5:15-16).

We are called to Love and to lead others to Christ by that Love, not by condemnation.

JMHO

 

[Cristiano]

With the utmost respect to you and your position, I would like to point out that simply because he identifies himself as a ‘former catholic’ does not mean that he does not understand what the Faith teaches. That is akin to saying that a frog has no clue what it is like to be a tadpole.

I was looking at it based on the selective representation of the CCC. My perception is that either he does not really know what the Church teaches or that he is not intellectually honest when quoting just one sentence out of the CCC and using it as a reference to a different context. However, I might be wrong and completely misreading his attitude, but the use of sarcasm raised a red flag.

If the OP wished to have an “official” reply, he would have posted this question to the Ask an Apologist section. However, this is a place for discussion and former catholic supported his advice with what he thought was relevant.

You are correct! and I think that even the “Ask and apologist” section might not be good enough for such a complex scenario where a loving brother is trying to form his conscience.

I would advise the OP to seek advice from his priest, if he is uncertain. From what I’ve read, and from Michelle Arnold, someone whose opinions I respect, it does not appear to me that it would be incorrect or wrong to attend. I should think that it would be more likely to eventually lead him back to the church.
I completely agree with you on that, and I suggested so in one of my previous posts. We can quote whatever we want, but we are not aware of all the relationship details that are in play. I think that it is difficult to bring unease to someone that we love even if it were the right to do.

 

[Cracker_Mom]

No, but we do acknowledge that the CCC supersedes the Baltimore Catechism.

This is not a fair comparison at all. Perhaps, if he were walking down the aisle with his brother and serving as a witness, it might be similar. Regardless, you are talking apples and oranges. Perhaps a less painful, volatile comparison would be more helpful.

I have had experience with the situation you describe and with the OP’s situation (and do not want to discuss Abortion here). My experience is that these situations are very, very different

Whatever the situation, we are to seek counsel (ideally from a priest) and then, follow our own conscience. For this reason I especially like the reading Teresa used. In Matthew Jesus did not say, condemn them to hell and harass them with the Truth, he said, “… Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works and give glory to your Father who is in heaven.” (Mt. 5:15-16).

We are called to Love and to lead others to Christ by that Love, not by condemnation.

JMHO

I like that part about harassing folks with the truth…
We had a lady at a previous parish who felt it was her personal duty & calling to give moral & spiritual guidance to anyone who would stand still long enough to listen. Needless to say, people would duck for cover when they saw her coming. At church functions it was like a parting of the Red Sea when she came into the room.
Bless her heart, she thought it was well intentioned, but in reality it was generally ill timed & she just didn’t have any discretion.

 

[Cristiano]

No, but we do acknowledge that the CCC supersedes the Baltimore Catechism.

That is not correct, the CCC does not abrogate the Baltimore Catechism. However, I agree with what I thing you are trying to say and that is why twice I invited people not to use the Baltimore Catechism as a reference for disciplines but to go directly to the Code of Canon Law that was revised after he publication of the Baltimore Catechism.

This is not a fair comparison at all. Perhaps, if he were walking down the aisle with his brother and serving as a witness, it might be similar. Regardless, you are talking apples and oranges. Perhaps a less painful, volatile comparison would be more helpful.

I do not disagree with you here when you say that I was comparing it to an extreme case. The bottom line was that we must avoid moral relativism. The O.P. must make a choice (whatever it is) based on its morality and not just because it is not a big deal.

I have had experience with the situation you describe and with the OP’s situation (and do not want to discuss Abortion here). My experience is that these situations are very, very different

Whatever the situation, we are to seek counsel (ideally from a priest) and then, follow our own conscience. For this reason I especially like the reading Teresa used. In Matthew Jesus did not say, condemn them to hell and harass them with the Truth, he said, “… Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works and give glory to your Father who is in heaven.” (Mt. 5:15-16).

We are called to Love and to lead others to Christ by that Love, not by condemnation.
I agree with you; however, I think that a lot of people appear to be confused of what Love is. I said it before: charity and clarity.

JMHO

 

[Cristiano]

I went through some of the posts of this thread but I did not see details of a heart to heart conversation between the two brothers. Maybe it happened and maybe it did not. I just realized that because my sibling and myself have quite different views about religion and morality; however, whenever we talk we are completely straightforward and even if we might not support each other on some of the choices but we do not let those differences separate us. We may even condemn each other actions but we do not seek evil intention in the other.

I would encourage the O.P. to spend less time in making a decision together with his parents and invest it in sharing his take with his brother. I firmly believe that if both are honest and caring, they should be able to find an understanding even if it is not a compromise.

 

[Abeille]

I went through some of the posts of this thread but I did not see details of a heart to heart conversation between the two brothers. Maybe it happened and maybe it did not. I just realized that because my sibling and myself have quite different views about religion and morality; however, whenever we talk we are completely straightforward and even if we might not support each other on some of the choices but we do not let those differences separate us. We may even condemn each other actions but we do not seek evil intention in the other.

I would encourage the O.P. to spend less time in making a decision together with his parents and invest it in sharing his take with his brother. I firmly believe that if both are honest and caring, they should be able to find an understanding even if it is not a compromise.

Another great suggestion, so long as it doesn’t turn into a blackmail type thing.

 

[Apryl]

We are called to Love and to lead others to Christ by that Love, not by condemnation.

And here I thought I was done with this thread.

Ok… I’m all for the ‘live and let live’ of the Beatles … when appropriate.

And I’m also in the mind of ‘you draw more flies with honey than with vinegar’

But why is not attending the wedding seen as a ‘condemnation’? Why does one, ANYONE, have to attend every event to which they are invited?

Now, if this woman was to say to you in a year, ‘My brother, and that woman who he lives with’, rather than referring to her as his wife… that would be a condemnation, IMO

And while I’m at it: where do you get that we are called to love and lead others by love and not condemnation? In some cases, condemnation is the best way to show love.

I think of those who have loved ones with drug or alcohol addiction. Sure, they need help. Maybe even owe some big thugs money. Look bad. Say they are sorry. Do you help them buy helping them to get their next ‘fix’? OR do you do more to help by saying, ‘no more’?

If you will read my earlier posts on this thread, I do not agree with the idea of not going to the wedding as some sort of punishment. I believe that the family can and should go to the wedding and be there as a social event. That is what it is! It’s not a sacramental event, as so many of us Catholics want. Let this brother know why you are not happy with the event at some other time. PLEASE do not spend the evening with a sour face and whispering to others your distaste for the nuptials.

But for this event, or any other event: If you do NOT approve…If you have some major objection… if you will not be able to gripe and complain… DON’T GO.

If you can go and not gripe and complain, then it’s not that big of a deal to you.

Would you go to the store and buy a package of cigarettes for a loved one who has already lost a limb or two as the result of their smoking? If the sight of them with pieces missing doesn’t just freak you out… GO AND GET THE CIGARETTES! But if you are hurt by the sight of this, you will say to them, ‘are you nuts? I will NOT participate in your hurting yourself’

Sometimes, you have to say ‘no’ to a loved one!