Not By Faith Alone

[mikeledes]

another one without a response

This has been responded to. the fact that you do not want to accept it is a different story. The works we perform are the works of the Holy Spirit freely given to us because of the work of Christ on the Cross. So we place out trust in Jesus. And Jesus said:

Matthew 7:21

“Not everyone who says to Me, “Lord, Lord” will enter the kingdom of Heaven, but he WHO DOES THE WILL OF MY FATHER who is in heaven WILL ENTER”

Matthew 19:17

“… but if you wish to ENTER INTO LIFE, keep the commandments.”

John 15:2, 6, 10

"Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He (Father) takes away… If anyone does not **abide **in Me, **he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire **… If you keep my commandments, you will abide in My love…

Since I trust in Jesus, I also trust His words and, empowered by the Holy Spirit freely given to me as a result of His work on the Cross, I do what he asks me to do.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[mikeledes]

Following the Holy Spirit’s guidance to inherit eternal life in the age to come, myfavoritemartin, is not a high view of human ability. Recognizing the need for the Holy Spirit’s leadership and guidance in our lives is a recognition that the human will on its own cannot seek God or do those works that are pleasing to God. When you do what is right, is your human will not involved in that decision? Where does that desire to do what is right based on pure love of God comes from? It comes from the Holy Spirit. When you fail to do what is right, is it your fault or the Holy Spirit’s? It is your fault because the Holy Spirit causes no one to sin. That was a FREE ACT OF THE HUMAN WILL.

So the issue here is not whether our works earn God’s mercy, for that is impossible and contradicts the clear teachings of the Bible. The issue is if after freely receiving the mercy of God (i.e. justification) on the basis of Christ’s work on the Cross, not our own works, can God withdraw his mercy from us if we deliberately sin (failure to comply with God’s moral law). We say yes:

Exodus 32:33

"The Lord said to Moses, “Whoever has sinned against Me, I will blot Him out of my book (i.e. the Book of Life)”

You cannot erase (blot out) something that wasn’t there to begin with and you cannot be in the Book of Life unless you have been justified. So the blotting out can only refer to those who were justified.

Hebrews 10:26, 29

“For if WE deliberately go on sinning after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a **terrifying expectation of judgement and the fury of the fire which will consume the adversaris **… How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded unclean the blood of the covenant BY WHICH HE WAS SANCTIFIED, and insulted the Spirit of grace.”

You cannot be sanctified by the blood of Jesus Christ unless you have been freely made righteous by God. Now reread the post immediately after this one, especially the verses in John 15. Sin means not keeping the commandments and not doing good in general. So failure to do good is a sin and will ultimately blot you out of the Book of Life.

You, on the other hand, say that this freely given mercy cannot be withdrawn.

God bless,
Michael

 

[Randy_Carson]

From the very first page my posts have been overlooked, not one answer to post # 7, perhaps the most significant question of any throughout this thread, as I was trying to point out if James 2:24 means it the way you all describe then the bible contradicts itself making it null and void here is what was posted … take another shot.

Post #7
My friend, you know as well as I that you are taking this verse out of context, for if not the bible would contradict itself.

Here is the response to that verse to help clarify for you…
Jhn 14:12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater [works] than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.
Do you need to look up your churches definition of this verse? or can you decifer it yourself? or I caan help

I answered you at length in post #97 where I specifically stated that John 14:12 does not appear to help your case against James 2:24 at all, IMHO.

 

[mikeledes]

The Bible tells us:

Ephesians 4:32

Be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving each other just as God in Christ also has forgiven you.

Colossians 3:13

"…just as the Lord forgave you, so also should you.

We are called to forgive other just as God has forgiven us. Now lets read:

Matthew 18:32-35

Then summoning him, the lord said to him, 'You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me. Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way I had mercy on you? And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the tortureres until he should repay all that was owed him. My heavenly father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from the heart.

Now compare with the verses given above. In this parable, the servant had a debt he was unable to pay and out of pure mercy, his lord forgave his debt. This is a symbol of the freely given mercy of God to the justified whose works can never pay their eternal debt and earn the mercy of God. But after he was forgiven, he refused to forgive the debt of his fellow slave and we know what his lord does to him. Jesus said that the Heavenly father will do the same to “you.” Who is he talking to? To all those who have freely received the mercy of God and, subsequent to that, do not forgive those that sin against them. Just as the lord withdrew the mercy he showed to the unforgiving servant, God will withdraw His mercy from the justified if they do not forgive others and will hand them to the “torturers” (i.e. eternal damnation). This is a clear example of God establishing a condtion (i.e. a work of mercy) that has to be met subsequent to receiving the free gift of justification, Otherwise, He will withdraw the gift.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[myfavoritmartin]

I answered you at length in post #97 where I specifically stated that John 14:12 does not appear to help your case against James 2:24 at all, IMHO.

It would directly contradict that our work aids in acquiring salvation.

 

[jim1130]

myfavoritmartin:

From the very first page my posts have been overlooked, not one answer to post # 7, perhaps the most significant question of any throughout this thread, as I was trying to point out if James 2:24 means it the way you all describe then the bible contradicts itself making it null and void here is what was posted … take another shot.

Post #7
My friend, you know as well as I that you are taking this verse out of context, for if not the bible would contradict itself.

Here is the response to that verse to help clarify for you…
Jhn 14:12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater [works] than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father. Do you need to look up your churches definition of this verse? or can you decifer it yourself? or I caan help

Post # 7 was not really a question, more of a your statement in response to Post # 3, although you were answered in # 11 (clarified in # 20), # 16, # 17, # 23, # 29, # 51, # 89, # 97

myfavoritmartin:

And following the HS’s guidance helps us achieve salvation? That is an awfully high opinion of humans ability. Don’t ya think?

This was not really even a question, but a response to an earlier post so it really did not warrant a response from anyone, but it was answered in # 95, # 96, # 117, # 129

myfavoritmartin:

Do you put your faith in the works of Jesus? or in your works? No grey area, it is black and white.

74, # 75, # 88, # 91, # 93, # 94, # 108, # 109, # 111, # 113, # 114, # 118, # 119, # 122, # 123, # 124, # 125, # 128, # 129, # 131, # 132, # 139, # 140, # 145, # 178, # 190​

myfavoritmartin:

Originally Posted by myfavoritmartin
Do you think keeping the law will make you right before God?

34, # 92, # 95, # 104, # 106, # 110, # 121, # 127, # 133​

myfavoritmartin:

What can you do that Christ hasn’t already done for you?

All the posts answered this.

And there were combinations that answered all the questions you posed.

You did throw everyone a curveball with # 148 which took everyone aside that may explain why you re-posted your questions.

From my lurking vantage point, your questions were answered, but not in the way that you wanted them answered, i.e. wanted them to endorse your interpretation.

 

[Randy_Carson]

Open Post to All Contributors to this Thread

I think we have talked past each other enough at this point. I would like to propose that each of the main combat…er…participants (myfavoritmartin, mikeledes, redbandito, etc) each compose a three to five paragraph statement on the Doctrine of Justification.

The statement should contain brief references to the scriptures that support your position. Please avoid quoting entire chapters and books, please.

Statements should be posted without html emphasis, please.

After reading each other’s statements, we can proceed to sort out the differences.

Agreed?

 

[mikeledes]

Ignoring Bible passages will not make them go away. You have not directly addressed any of the Bible passages I listed in my last posts. You have not even attempted to present an alternative interpretation.

God bless,
Michael

 

[Randy_Carson]

Awesome!

 

[mikeledes]

Open Post to All Contributors to this Thread

I think we have talked past each other enough at this point. I would like to propose that each of the main combat…er…participants (myfavoritmartin, mikeledes, redbandito, etc) each compose a three to five paragraph statement on the Doctrine of Justification.

The statement should contain brief references to the scriptures that support your position. Please avoid quoting entire chapters and books, please.

Statements should be posted without html emphasis, please.

After reading each other’s statements, we can proceed to sort out the differences.

Agreed?

I wrote a five part series on justification, though admittedly not the most thorough one, in this thread and it has largely gone ignored. I have listed a number of Bible verses that contradict salvation by faith alone, and it has been ignored. I don’t know if what you propose will change the fact that myfavoritemartin seems more intent on defending the Sola Fide interpretation of Scripture then addressing those passages that blatantly contradict it. But it doesn’t hurt to try, I guess.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[Randy_Carson]

I wrote a five part series on justification, though admittedly not the most thorough one, in this thread and it has largely gone ignored. I have listed a number of Bible verses that contradict salvation by faith alone, and it has been ignored. I don’t know if what you propose will change the fact that myfavoritemartin seems more intent on defending the Sola Fide interpretation of Scripture then addressing those passages that blatantly contradict it. But it doesn’t hurt to try, I guess.

God Bless,
Michael

I know. Boil it down.

“Faith Alone”, while false, is a pretty catchy slogan, so see what you can come up with.

 

[tequilamac]

Paragraph 1 Brief Bible reference.
I am the way, the truth and the life.
Paragraph 2
Salvation by love alone.
Paragraph 3
Jesus is the way, the scripture is the truth, tradition is the life all three equal love alone.

the end.

 

[Redbandito]

From the very first page my posts have been overlooked, not one answer to post # 7, perhaps the most significant question of any throughout this thread, as I was trying to point out if James 2:24 means it the way you all describe then the bible contradicts itself making it null and void here is what was posted … take another shot.

Post #7
My friend, you know as well as I that you are taking this verse out of context, for if not the bible would contradict itself.

Here is the response to that verse to help clarify for you…
Jhn 14:12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater [works] than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.
Do you need to look up your churches definition of this verse? or can you decifer it yourself? or I caan help

Martin, you aren’t paying attention. This WAS answered. I have addressed nearly every one of your posts in this thread. In WHAT way does Jn 14:12 contradict the Catholic’s view of James 2:24? See, this is where the conversation breaks down. You assume you know the Catholic position, so you pose these strawman arguments. Because of this, you never actually pay attention to what we say the Catholic position is. The problem is, you DON’T understand the Catholic position. Thus, you keep arguing in your own little circle. John 14 does not say anything even remotely resembling faith alone. He just makes the point that once we have faith, we will do good works. My point agrees with that. What this verse does not say is whether or not we can reject these works. It does not say what happens if we do reject these works. It does not talk about justification and how it is merited. It simply discusses that our works are the fruit of grace through faith, which we have already stated is the CATHOLIC position. Thus, you have proven nothing. Now respond to the questions posed to you. There are about 1000 of them that you have neatly evaded. Why is that?

 

[Jim_Baur]

tequilamac

Salvation by love alone!!!

Where did you get that?

Thanks!!!

 

[Redbandito]

another one unanswered.

Uhhhh…bologna! Try post 95 there Chief. Either you are not reading posts and responding with propaganda, you’re lying, or you’re ignorant. None of these are good options. Which one are you claiming? As I said before, intellectual honesty would be appreciated. Your questions have been addressed.

 

[Redbandito]

another one without a response

This has been answered up and down this thread. OUR works, post initial justification, ARE CHRIST’S works. You’re making a false dichotomy. Pay attention! Take a look at post 93.

 

[Redbandito]

Another…

Yeah, another lie. Try taking a look at post 92 there my Christian brother. It was addressed. Are you intentionally ignoring these responses? If so, I wonder why?

 

[Redbandito]

Yet another and I’m still on page 1 of 4.

Well, maybe that’s the problem, because apparently you haven’t read PAST page 1. Try again. The whole thread has answered this.

 

[Redbandito]

It would directly contradict that our work aids in acquiring salvation.

So you say, but how? I don’t see any conflict whatsoever between Jn 14:12 and Jam 2:24 from my perspective. Perhaps you could do a little more than prooftexting to make you case. Show me why these are at odds from the Catholic perspective. I think the problem you will find is that you don’t actually know the Catholic perspective, which has been abundantly clear throughout this thread.

 

[Redbandito]

Open Post to All Contributors to this Thread

I think we have talked past each other enough at this point. I would like to propose that each of the main combat…er…participants (myfavoritmartin, mikeledes, redbandito, etc) each compose a three to five paragraph statement on the Doctrine of Justification.

The statement should contain brief references to the scriptures that support your position. Please avoid quoting entire chapters and books, please.

Statements should be posted without html emphasis, please.

After reading each other’s statements, we can proceed to sort out the differences.

Agreed?

I’ll see what I can do. I can’t guarantee anything at this point. Work is slammed, and I don’t want to just throw some shoddy work out there. I would want to put some time and preparation into such a work. Anyway, I will see what kind of time I have tomorrow or this weekend. I appreciate the idea though. I agree that in large part some are talking past others. In fact, I mentioned this long ago. I disagree that we are all talking past each other since many people have responded to direct questions posed by others. I won’t say any names. I think we all know the culprits. Anyway, I will do what I can. I look forward to seeing what some others come up with. Should be interesting.