Not By Faith Alone

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Jesus also tell us he will render judgement according to mens works:

31: “When the Son of man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne.
32: Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate them one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats,
33: and he will place the sheep at his right hand, but the goats at the left.
34: Then the King will say to those at his right hand, Come, O blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world; 35: for I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, 36: I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.' 37: Then the righteous will answer him, Lord, when did we see thee hungry and feed thee, or thirsty and give thee drink?
38: And when did we see thee a stranger and welcome thee, or naked and clothe thee?
39: And when did we see thee sick or in prison and visit thee?’
40: And the King will answer them, Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brethren, you did it to me.' 41: Then he will say to those at his left hand, Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels;
42: for I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink,
43: I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.’
44: Then they also will answer, Lord, when did we see thee hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to thee?' 45: Then he will answer them, Truly, I say to you, as you did it not to one of the least of these, you did it not to me.’
46: And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

Faith alone, and permanent justifcation have no place in the bible. It is a doctrine of men. As James says:

19: My brethren, if any one among you wanders from the truth and some one brings him back,
20: let him know that whoever brings back a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.

According to James those who wander from the truth (obviously they have lost justification and grace) and are brought back will save his soul from death. If it is a one time justification this would be an error of scripture and James (as well as Paul and Jesus) wrong. To wander from the truth you must have first had the truth then sinned and lost justification. James goes into great detail about this in the preceeding chapters from coveting position, partiality, evils of the tongue etc, 1 John 3: expounding on agape love but in particular:

23: And this is his commandment, that we should believe in the name of his Son Jesus Christ and love one another, just as he has commanded us.
24: All who keep his commandments abide in him, and he in them. And by this we know that he abides in us, by the Spirit which he has given us.

Are those who do not abide in him (agapatomen v23) through walking in Christ and following his commandments still justified?

As well Paul is very explicit about those who commit sin not entering into eternal life, again this is to the galatians, those already converted:

18: But if you are led by the Spirit you are not under the law.
19: Now the works of the flesh are plain: fornication, impurity, licentiousness,
20: idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, anger, selfishness, dissension, party spirit,
21: envy, drunkenness, carousing, and the like. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
22: But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,
23: gentleness, self-control; against such there is no law.

According to the faith alone position of justification those who do commit those acts after conversion will still inherit the kingdom of God because it is covered, yet Paul states uncategorically the opposite. Obviously he does not believe they are still justified nor any longer filled with grace.

Now according to the faith alone position if we just need to believe in Jesus and we are saved (and catholics definately believe Jesus is the savior) and that sin doesn’t matter due to permanent justification, and that even if we sin we are still going to heaven, and that works are only (buying) rewards in heaven; then catholics are golden for all those works crowns they will recieve and any sin they commit doesn’t matter.

cont…
 
Yet if the intention is converting to protestantism when one already believes in Christ as the saviour (as catholics already do: minimum base and only requirement according to protestantism) inherantly they don’t really believe their own doctrine and that justification isn’t a one time permanent event. Anything else for a catholics, works and repentance for other post baptismal sins would be just icing on the cake to purchase rewards in heaven no matter what they actually think.

Is belief in Jesus enough with faith alone or not? Only continued prostelyzation will tell if they really believe that to be the truth. If yes then they don’t really believe their own doctrine. Which says a lot.

Now taking the theoretical and placing it into practical practice . Yesterday I was told that by a evangelical that pastor Ted Haggard (no I am not picking on him, he is just recent news to illustrate the point) for example is guaranteed heaven and he doesn’t need to repent he has already been saved. He definately falls under Galatians 5:19, yet sin will enter heaven, unless of course Jesus sheds his blood for him again sinse he doesn’t have to repent, and he hasn’t if you read his statement carefully. (Again it can’t be both ways). We also have a pedophile evangelical pastor in Denver (less press for him) 2 days later, also guaranteed heaven. So how can this be?

Sorry but this fellow is not permanently justified no matter how much one wishes he were. This is definately one of the deadly sins 1 John speaks about not praying for. Only a totally seared conscience would believe so:

1: Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by giving heed to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons,
2: through the pretensions of liars whose consciences are seared,

If he doesn’t have to repent, then I must say that there is definately no reason not to sin, and in fact do it as often as possible and as much as possible, for it really doesn’t matter according to the permanent view of justification and unresistable grace.

Peace and God Bless
Nicene
 
Almost forgot to add as an afterthought. Sinse it is clear that one can fall from grace according to the gospel:

4: You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace.

(And it is clear Haggard has)

If one believes in permanent justification, it means that justification must come from works of the law (mosaic law, not the law of liberty and repentance) as this is justification without grace at that point. No repentance, no grace, no grace no faith, yet according to protestant justification, he is still justified. I.e. justification through the law.

It is the only tennable position that can be held by those who profess permanent justification.

Peace and God Bless
Nicene
 
Can you please explain 1 John 5:4…

1Jo 5:4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.

As well as all of the other scriptures in 1 John that characterize the Christian as…
  1. One who does not practice sin
  2. One who loves
  3. One who loves the brethren
  4. One has has witness from the Spirit
  5. One who confesses Christ
  6. One who keeps the commandments
  7. And - as above, one who endures to the end
This seems to indicate who a Christian is if they are truly born again…

1Jo 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

Craig
 
The 12" between the head and the heart may cost many their salvation!😦
 
Mickey said:
A man’s good works are the fruit of a living faith received by God’s free gift of grace.
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So are a Man’s works his or a gift of grace from God, therefore Gods, and because they are a fruit of the faith this I agree with, what effect do they have toward our salvation?
 
myfavoritmartin said:
So are a Man’s works his or a gift of grace from God, therefore Gods, and because they are a fruit of the faith this I agree with, what effect do they have toward our salvation?
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We are saved by grace. This is what the Catholic Church has always taught.

God’s work (such as creation) is incomprehensible to the human mind.
 
myfavoritmartin;1732979:
So are a Man’s works his or a gift of grace from God, therefore Gods?
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myfavoritmartin;1732979:
what effect do they have toward our salvation?
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How many of these 10 points would you agree with?
God gives a sinner right standing with himself by mercifully accounting him innocent or virtuous.
God gives a sinner right standing with himself by placing Christ’s goodness and virtue to his credit.
God accepts the believer because of the righteousness found in Jesus Christ.
If a person becomes “born again” he achieves right standing with God on the basis of Christ’s work alone.
We receive right standing with God by faith .
We receive right standing with God by accepting the fact that Christ obeyed the law perfectly for us.
We follow Christ’s example because his death has given us right standing with God.
God first pronounces that we are good in his sight, then gives us his Spirit to make us good.
Christ’s intercession at God’s right hand gives us favor in the sight of God.
Only by faith in the doing and dying of Christ can we satisfy the claims of the Ten Commandments.
 
myfavoritmartin said:
So are a Man’s works his or a gift of grace from God, therefore Gods, and because they are a fruit of the faith this I agree with, what effect do they have toward our salvation?
Click to expand...
I understand you are not Lutheran, but in an article entitled, Justification - Setting the Record Straight, Jimmy Akin wrote the following concerning the Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification issued by the Catholic Church and the Lutheran Church in 1999:
  1. The Good Works of the Justified
Lutherans have been suspicious for a long time that the Church’s discussion of good works means that one must do good works in order to enter a state of justification. This has never been the case. In fact, in Catholic teaching, one is not capable of doing supernaturally good works outside of a state of justification because one does not have the virtue of charity in one’s soul-the thing that makes good works good. Consequently, the Council of Trent taught “none of those things that precede justification, whether faith or works, merit the grace of justification” (DJ 8).

The Joint Declaration thus stresses that good works are a consequence of entering a state of justification, not the cause of entering it: "We confess together that good works-a Christian life lived in faith, hope, and love-follow justification and are its fruits. When the justified live in Christ and act in the grace they receive, they bring forth, in biblical terms, good fruit. . . .

“When Catholics affirm the ‘meritorious’ character of good works, they wish to say that, according to the biblical witness, a reward in heaven is promised to these works. Their intention is to emphasize the responsibility of persons for their actions, not to contest the character of those works as gifts, or far less to deny that justification always remains the unmerited gift of grace” (JD 37-38).

The full article may help everyone to understand what we can and cannot agree on:

catholic.com/thisrock/1999/9911fea1.asp

+++

I think it might be helpful if everyone - Catholic or Protestant - would read this document carefully and then reconvene this discussion to see what joint understanding we have along with what differences remain.

Agreed?
 
People tend to expand the definition of faith in to the rhelm of the body. Faith is an act of the will - it is defined here as an act of the intellect assenting to a truth which is beyond its grasp. An act of the INTELLECT.

We read in
2 Cor. 5:10 that
For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive what is due him for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad
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.

Tell me, how does God reward the “bad” things we have done in the body? Do the “bad” things come from this person that has “non-saving faith” (an invention of protestants). Well if that is the case, then the person never really had any faith to begin with right (according to protestants- because if they had “saving faith” they would be doing good works only).

Fools. Do you not think that you can have faith, real faith and then choose to good works or bad ones? Look at the example of Judas.

Luke 6:16.
And Jude the brother of James, and Judas Iscariot, who was the traitor.
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What is a traitor? It is someone who, at one point, was on your side and gave assent to the teachings of the master. Therefore, as Holy Scripture indicates, we can betray Jesus Christ making the whole “saving faith” vs. “non-saving faith” dichotomy meaningless.
 
myfavoritmartin said:
How many of these 10 points would you agree with?
God gives a sinner right standing with himself by mercifully accounting him innocent or virtuous.
God gives a sinner right standing with himself by placing Christ’s goodness and virtue to his credit.
God accepts the believer because of the righteousness found in Jesus Christ.
If a person becomes “born again” he achieves right standing with God on the basis of Christ’s work alone.
We receive right standing with God by faith .
We receive right standing with God by accepting the fact that Christ obeyed the law perfectly for us.
We follow Christ’s example because his death has given us right standing with God.
God first pronounces that we are good in his sight, then gives us his Spirit to make us good.
Christ’s intercession at God’s right hand gives us favor in the sight of God.
Only by faith in the doing and dying of Christ can we satisfy the claims of the Ten Commandments.
Click to expand...
Everyone can take myfavoritemartin’s little test on whether you think like a Catholic or a protestant. It can be found at this evangelical website:
christiananswers.net/q-eden/catholic-protestant_test.html#start
 
Randy_Carson said:
I understand you are not Lutheran, but in an article entitled, Justification - Setting the Record Straight, Jimmy Akin wrote the following concerning the Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification issued by the Catholic Church and the Lutheran Church in 1999:

7. The Good Works of the Justified

catholic.com/thisrock/1999/9911fea1.asp

+++

I think it might be helpful if everyone - Catholic or Protestant - would read this document carefully and then reconvene this discussion to see what joint understanding we have along with what differences remain.

Agreed?
​
Click to expand...

Well the jddj was signed only by the liberal Lutheran churches the LCMS and WLS would have no part…
Here is what the LCMS had to say about it…
The recently signed Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification (JDDJ) does not signal a change in the Roman Catholic church, but rather, a willingness on the part of the Lutherans who signed it to allow Rome’s doctrine of justification to stand as a valid interpretation of what the Bible teaches us about justification. This is something that the Lutheran church has never done before, and in fact, it is a great tragedy and a profoundly sad moment in the history of Lutheranism.

Rome historically has always taught that we are saved by grace, and grace alone. They emphasize that very strongly. The 16th century Council of Trent makes this point very clear. Thus, there is nothing new on this in the Declaration on this point, even though some Lutherans have made it sound as if Rome’s words about grace signal some marvelous breakthrough.

What you probably have not heard is that the JDDJ very carefully avoid precise definitions of the words grace, faith, sin, etc. That is no accident. Careful definition of those terms would have shown how far apart our two churches actually are on the doctrine of justification.

The problem with Rome’s view of justification is that they view it as a process, whereby we cooperate with God’s grace in order to merit eternal life for ourselves, and even for others (that is a paraphrase of what the Catechism of the Catholic Church teaches). They view grace as a sort of “substance” that God infuses into us that permits us to do those works that are necessary in order that we might earn more grace. The Bible describes grace as the loving and favorable disposition of God; in other words, grace is all about what God is doing and giving.

We distinguish between the result of justification, which is the Christian life, and the work of God to save us. Rome mixes sanctification with justification. Why is this view troublesome? Because it teaches that something other than trust in Christ is necessary for or salvation. That “something other” is what we bring to the table. And the only thing we do bring to the table is our sin, not our good works. Our works are a response that God works in us, but not a contributing cause to our justification.

The Roman Catholic Church is very careful to state that even this “something other” is made possibly only because God has given us the “initial” grace to desire more grace. But in practical reality, it is apparent that the Roman Catholic Church is finally throwing people back on relying on what they are doing, or can do, to merit eternal life. When we mix in our works in the picture of our salvation, the glory and merit of Christ always end up becoming obscured.

But the Bible is clear that it is purely by grace, not by works, or else grace would just be a “help” for us to do the works that finally are what merit God’s forgiveness. In the Roman Catholic view, justification is a process by which we participate with God in achieving our salvation. The Biblical view is that justification is God’s declaration of our complete righteousness and total forgiveness, apart from any works. This gift is received by faith alone–apart from works (Rom. 3:28; Eph. 2:8-9).

Another point to be made is this: If, in fact, Rome does teach justification as the Bible teaches it, then there should be an immediate change in its view of indulgences, prayer to the saints and the myriad of other extra-biblical traditions that it has embraced. For if justification is the heart and center of the Bible, then these other things are incompatible with it.

I hope this helps you see that the Roman Catholic view of justification and the classical Lutheran view are definitely not complementary, but diametrically opposed to one another. The JDDJ did not change that fact. The Lutherans who signed the document did not insist on careful definition of terms so as to make absolutely clear that our salvation is by faith alone, through Christ alone, by grace alone.

lcms.org/pages/internal.asp?NavID=2212​
 
myfavoritmartin said:
Well the jddj was signed only by the liberal Lutheran churches the LCMS and WLS would have no part…

The Lutherans who signed the document did not insist on careful definition of terms so as to make absolutely clear that our salvation is by faith alone, through Christ alone, by grace alone.
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I did not ask you to agree with the JDDJ, only to read Akin’s article as a basis for common dialogue. As I believe you point out, the definitions of the words are important. Perhaps in this thread, we have been talking past one another to some degree. Even if we continue to disagree, at least we will be speaking the “same language”.

I also want to point out that the fact that one “branch” of the Lutheran Church disagrees with another is indicative of the problem inherent in all Protestantism.

I’d also like to ask if you read the other pages of the website. While I cannot agree with all of their positions, of course, I was encouraged to find that they do not hold that all Catholics are going to hell. What about you?
 
myfavoritmartin said:
We distinguish between the result of justification, which is the Christian life, and the work of God to save us. Rome mixes sanctification with justification. Why is this view troublesome? Because it teaches that something other than trust in Christ is necessary for or salvation. That “something other” is what we bring to the table. And the only thing we do bring to the table is our sin, not our good works. Our works are a response that God works in us, but not a contributing cause to our justification.
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I would submit we bring more to the table than just our sin. Don’t we also bring our willingness to trust God and obey his commands?
 
What are thoughts on this year-old article from Catholic Online?

Faith alone, not deeds, required for salvation, papal preacher tells pontiff
By Cindy Wooden

VATICAN CITY (CNS) – Even those who spend their lives serving the church must recognize that faith alone will save them, the preacher of the papal household told Pope Benedict XVI and his closest aides.
“Christianity does not start with that which man must do to save himself, but with what God has done to save him,” Capuchin Father Raniero Cantalamessa said in his Dec. 16 Advent meditation.
The preacher told the pope and top Vatican officials that they, like St. Paul, must avoid any temptation to think that the good works they have accomplished will guarantee their salvation.
“Gratuitous justification through faith in Christ is the heart” of St. Paul’s preaching “and it is a shame that this has been practically absent from the ordinary preaching of the church,” he said.
Father Cantalamessa said that the Protestant Reformation debate over the role of faith and works led the Catholic Church to focus so much on the need for the demonstration of faith in actions that it practically ignored the need for faith in the first place.
St. Paul, in his Letter to the Philippians, warned believers of the “mortal danger” of putting their own good works between them and Christ, as if the works would save them, Father Cantalamessa said.
Conversion to the fact that faith in Christ is the only means of salvation “is the conversion most needed by those who already are following Christ and have lived at the service of his church,” the Capuchin said.
“It is a special conversion that does not consist in abandoning the bad, but abandoning the good, in a way,” he said. “It means detaching oneself from everything one has done, repeating to oneself, ‘We are useless servants; we have done only what was required.’”
Father Cantalamessa told a familiar Italian story about the shepherds near Bethlehem going to visit the newborn Jesus, each of them trying to outdo the others with the beauty of the gifts they offered.
One poor shepherd had nothing and was ashamed.
“Mary could not figure out how to accept all the gifts, since she was holding the baby in her arms,” he said. “So, seeing the poor shepherd with his hands free, she handed Jesus to him.”
“Having his hands free was his fortune and it should be ours as well,” Father Cantalamessa said

Faith alone - but faith that is not alone.
 
myfavoritmartin said:
Anyone?
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Already been answered. Apparently you’re not paying attention. It was previously stated:

**“How do you distinguish between man’s work and God’s work? How about God’s work is the “fruit of sanctifying grace” and man’s work is done apart from this grace? It really is simple. And for the record, WE don’t have to be able to tell the difference. God alone is our judge. Therefore, He will make that judgement, not us.” **

This was posted in post #118. See for yourself. I suggest you do a little more time reading. It would help you to grasp the Catholic position a little better, which at certain points in this thread you have been very close to.
 
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