Not By Faith Alone

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mikeledes said:
So the answer to James’s question “Can that faith save him?” is that faith that produces works and hence validated by works saves? That’s precisely what the Catholic church says!

God Bless,
Michael
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Reread this not using your head, move down bout 12" toward your heart and see if you’ll still agree.

Our works achieve nothing in lieu of salvation.
 
myfavoritmartin said:
Reread this not using your head, move down bout 12" toward your heart and see if you’ll still agree.

Our works achieve nothing in lieu of salvation.
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So if you don’t need works to validate faith for salvation, then why does James asks “Can that faith save him?” Why does he use the word “justified”?

God Bless,
Michael
 
The question that James poses is not whether that faith validates him. The question he poses is whether that faith saves him.

God Bless,
Michael
 
“You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.”
  1. Is the faith mentioned verse 24 genuine faith?
  2. Is James talking about justification? If not, what does he mean by using the word “justified.”
I haven’t gotten a response yet.

God Bless,
michael
 
I have not read many of these posts.

It seems to me that biblically love is in total charge of faith.

I feel as if it could be phrased this way: “We love and then we believe.”

If I love God because He loved me first, then I believe Him.

If I love money then I believe it will bring me “happiness.”
 
mikeledes said:
“You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.”
  1. Is the faith mentioned verse 24 genuine faith?
  2. Is James talking about justification? If not, what does he mean by using the word “justified.”
I haven’t gotten a response yet.

God Bless,
michael
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The way I’ve always read the justified aspect In James is that through our works we will be known and through our faith we will perform those works so that all who did not believe will believe in Christ and His actions will be justified before non believers.

Remember Christ was crucified because He was accused of wrong doing. He had something of a bad rep before the so called holy ones. Therefore at the end of time, He will be vindicated before those who accused him and his actions will be justified through us. At the time of James’ Letter, Jesus was still the bad guy with a bad rep.

Sola Scripturists and OSAS types read justification=salvation.
Catholics I believe see justification = Doxology ie Glory be to the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.

And I think this is also why so many sola scripturists and OSAS types appear to us at times as spending all of their time blowing their own horns and trying to get us to follow them. Their view of the meaning of justification is radically different.
 
Mark 8:34
He summoned the crowd with his disciples and said to them, "Whoever wishes to come after me must deny himself, take up his cross, and follow me.
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“taking up your cross” is work; it is not just “Faithing” or an intellectual assent.

Read Isaiah 53
 
The issue Paul is specifically addressing in Romans 4 is the claim by some Jewish Christians that all Christians had to observe (Gentile & Jew) observe the law of Moses (Moral & Ceremonal) in order to be considered a member of Christ’s body (i.e. justified) and hence saved. That is the issue addressed by the Council of Jerusalem. Please note how in Romans 4 Paul constantly makes reference to circumcision, one of the key point of contention and point out how Abraham was circumcised (a key work of the law) after being made righteous. The point? The Mosaic Law has nothing to do with making a person righteous before God.

However, even if the works are not of the Mosaic Law, they do not give you a right to God’s mercy. God’s mercy is freely given and works pleasing to God are done AFTER we have received his mercy.

God Bless,
Michael
 
myfavoritmartin said:
Did you go to the link provided? Your critique of the author is a critique of the LCMS, I am sure you understand the term justification better than their think tank of theologians!
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Perhaps the LCMS gets un-biblical and extra-biblical and it is your “magisterium” that is missing it, what then?
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Perhaps I do. I rely on giants like Thomas Aquinas, Bonaventure, John Henry Newman, JPII, Benedict XVI, etc. for the Biblical view of justification. Lutherans rely on their “think tank of theologians” for their unBiblical view of justification. I didn’t have to come up with these observations for myself. I was able to lean on these giants who point out such glaring weaknesses with doctrines such as faith alone. And the arrogance of you to think that the only “think tanks” and scholars are on the Lutheran side of this debate is disappointing to say the least.

Look, you clearly don’t want a dialogue. You clearly want to irresponsibly throw out unsubstantiated garbage that will distract from the real point. The real point is about justification. And as for this thread, you have sorely failed to address any of the points made to you. You continue to spew the same arguments without even acknowledging that they have already been addressed. I don’t claim to know your heart, but this is an objectively dishonest tactic. It shows a lack of openness to truth. You are willing to come over here and make claims whether you are able to substantiate them or not. Is that really Christ-like?

As far as your last sentence, I have no idea what you are trying to say there. Maybe you could expound upon what you mean. Thanks.
 
myfavoritmartin said:
So there is no way to tell if we have a regenerated or ungenerated heart? So we just go about doing good works hoping our heart is right? if its not we burn in hell, yet these good works can make or break our salvation? what of all the verses I quoted in post #2?
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Of course there is a way to tell. It’s called baptism! Where are you getting this misunderstanding from? Nobody made the claim that we cannot know whether our heart is regenerate. Nobody is arguing anything you wrote in this post. Stick to what has been posted here instead of your previous misconceptions.
 
myfavoritmartin said:
Hello my fellow Minnesotan! I’d like to recommend an awesome church up in your area…www.emmanuelcc.org
give it a try or catch it on cable.

Now to the point.

What effect does willingness to do good works have on salvation? as I noted before…
Knowing the wickedness of man’s nature, **you realize that the good works of the holiest men are stained by the irreverence of human nature. **(Eccl. 7:20) “For there is not a just man on earth who does good and does not sin”.
(Isa 64:6)“But we are all like an unclean thing, and all our righteousness are like filthy rags”
(1 Joh1:8). “If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us”
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You continue to ignore the context of these verses that has already been addressed. Works, apart from grace, are not meritorious. No Catholic has argued that in this thread. This is merely a strawman.
 
Redbandito said:
Perhaps I do. I rely on giants like Thomas Aquinas, Bonaventure, John Henry Newman, JPII, Benedict XVI, etc. for the Biblical view of justification. Lutherans rely on their “think tank of theologians” for their unBiblical view of justification. I didn’t have to come up with these observations for myself. I was able to lean on these giants who point out such glaring weaknesses with doctrines such as faith alone. And the arrogance of you to think that the only “think tanks” and scholars are on the Lutheran side of this debate is disappointing to say the least.

Look, you clearly don’t want a dialogue. You clearly want to irresponsibly throw out unsubstantiated garbage that will distract from the real point. The real point is about justification. And as for this thread, you have sorely failed to address any of the points made to you. You continue to spew the same arguments without even acknowledging that they have already been addressed. I don’t claim to know your heart, but this is an objectively dishonest tactic. It shows a lack of openness to truth. You are willing to come over here and make claims whether you are able to substantiate them or not. Is that really Christ-like?

As far as your last sentence, I have no idea what you are trying to say there. Maybe you could expound upon what you mean. Thanks.
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I’d have to say I feel the same about your responses and intellectual dishonesty, you are REQUIRED to believe what you believe via the magisterium of your church whether you understand it or not, your given a book written by men to understand a book written by the Holy Spirit, my goodness get out of the brain and into the heart where all truth lies.

I was once told when one speaks the truth and people know it they are quick to anger I’ve angered you guys a few times, what does that say?
 
myfavoritmartin said:
James is dealing with people who own up to being Christians, and yet they don’t substantiate the truth of their faith by their works.
Again and again people will say they have faith and they don’t have works, and James is saying that bona fide faith always produces works as a result…
Here is the real question "A man says that he has faith, but will that faith validate him? “
if it is just a ‘declared’ faith no it won’t.
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Well, actually, if James wanted to talk about validating his faith, he would have probably just used the word “validate.” However, he didn’t. He used the word “justify”. Thus, despite your best efforts to avoid the only logical conclusion, James does say works justify. That can’t work for you though, because you believe in a one-time imputation of righteousness, rather than a process. Thus, the formal proceeds the material for your argument.
 
myfavoritmartin said:
I’d have to say I feel the same about your responses and intellectual dishonesty, you are REQUIRED to believe what you believe via the magisterium of your church whether you understand it or not, your given a book written by men to understand a book written by the Holy Spirit, my goodness get out of the brain and into the heart where all truth lies.

I was once told when one speaks the truth and people know it they are quick to anger I’ve angered you guys a few times, what does that say?
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Angry? My only frustration comes from your tactics. What you say has no teeth. You never engage the argument.

And intellectual dishonesty speaks to your tactics. I have not been dishonest at all. I admit full well that I submit to the Magisterium. How is that dishonest? Even with that being said, my whole argument has been made from the Scripture. I have argued on your grounds, not mine. And I still can’t get you to respond. What does that say?

Anyway, I wouldn’t flatter yourself to assume you could “anger me.” Although, I will say that it upsets me to see a so-called Christian be dishonest and spread untruths. Seeing how you have responded so quickly to this post, I wonder why it is so hard for you to address the rebuttals to your original arguments. Hmmmmmm…
 
From the very first page my posts have been overlooked, not one answer to post # 7, perhaps the most significant question of any throughout this thread, as I was trying to point out if James 2:24 means it the way you all describe then the bible contradicts itself making it null and void here is what was posted … take another shot.

Post #7
My friend, you know as well as I that you are taking this verse out of context, for if not the bible would contradict itself.

Here is the response to that verse to help clarify for you…
Jhn 14:12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater [works] than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.
Do you need to look up your churches definition of this verse? or can you decifer it yourself? or I caan help
 
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