T
The_Catholic
Guest
Ok, I blundered. I was thinking of the Pharisees when I spoke of the Jews. Or are you comparing Catholicism to the Pharisees? That’s how I took it.
- Status
S
SolaScriptura
Guest
Well, I’m still dull so please be patient with me. The Pharisees are Jews and even they believed in grace, so your clarification doesn’t change much. They too believed they were in the covenant by grace, but you had to keep the law to remain in the covenant. Keeping this law was also based on God’s grace. Remember the righteous Pharisee in Luke 18 started off is his prayer with, “… God, I thank you that I am not like other men …”( Luke 18:11). Well, in essence this is no different than Catholicism. One enters into a right relationship with God by the grace of Baptism, but you must keep the commandments to remain in this relationship. If not you shipwreck your faith. This is Judiasm with a change in vocabulary and a few different emphasis.
T
The_Catholic
Guest
I’m sorry for calling you “dull.” I meant no disrespect. I just don’t understand why you cannot see that it’s all grace in the Catholic Church. We are saved by the blood of Christ, nothing else! The idea that one can be a Christian and yet continue in a life of sin is clearly unbiblical and unhistorical among the early Christians, and is very liberal. I’m not saying a Christian is not going to sin. God forbid no! I’m a sinner. I feel like the King of sinners, I am very ashamed of the sins I do. But when this happens we are to stand back up, repent, ask for forgivness and then try to live a Christlike life as Jesus did.
This is what the Church teaches and has always taught. We are a new creation in Jesus Christ and we are to put off the old life and begin with the new. That means abandoning our old sinful habits and if we fall back into them, then we are to seek God’s forgiveness.
God bless you.
K
KathleenElsie
Guest
Douay-Rheims
St. James 2 vs 17-24
vs17 So faith also, if it have not works, is dead in itself.
sv18 But some man will say: Thou hast faith, and I have works, Shew me thy faith without works; and I will shew thee, by works, my faith.
vs19 Thou believest that there is one God. Thou dost well: the devels also believe and tremble.
vs20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
vs21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, offering up Isaac his son upon the alter?
vs22 Seest thou that faith did cooperate with his works and by works faith was made perfect?
vs3 And the scripture was fulfilled saying: Abraham believed God, and it was reputed to him to justice, and he was called the friend of God.
**
vs24 Do you see that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only?
Been monitoring this thread. IMHO this says it all.
St. James 2 vs 17-24
vs17 So faith also, if it have not works, is dead in itself.
sv18 But some man will say: Thou hast faith, and I have works, Shew me thy faith without works; and I will shew thee, by works, my faith.
vs19 Thou believest that there is one God. Thou dost well: the devels also believe and tremble.
vs20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
vs21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, offering up Isaac his son upon the alter?
vs22 Seest thou that faith did cooperate with his works and by works faith was made perfect?
vs3 And the scripture was fulfilled saying: Abraham believed God, and it was reputed to him to justice, and he was called the friend of God.
**
vs24 Do you see that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only?
Been monitoring this thread. IMHO this says it all.
S
SolaScriptura
Guest
No problem, it is cool.
I’m not denying that and I’ve stated as much. However, Paul says if it is by grace then it cannot be by works( Rom. 11:6). So let me ask you this. Based on Catholic teaching do grace infused works play a part in our justification?
S
SolaScriptura
Guest
So do you believe your grace infused good works are necessary for your justification?
D
dbacks5439
Guest
Code:
Yep. When we do a good work, such as feeding the hungry, and helping the poor, we receive grace. The more grace you have, the more God is with you. A person who is full of grace, such as Holy Mary Mother of God, is much less likely to sin than a person who's only grace is from baptism. The more grace you have, the more you want God, and the more you will want to turn away from sin.Another way to look at it is this. Recall in the Gospel where Jesus told a parable about those who fed the hungry, clothed the naked, etc, and were allowed access into Heaven. Then there were those who just had faith, and didn’t do any of those things, rather only saying, “Didn’t we prophesy in your name? Didn’t we drive out demons in your name?” We both know what Jesus said to them. He did not know them because He wasn’t in them. They had insufficient grace, therefore Christ wasn’t in them. Those who had faith and did good works, had grace where Christ was able to dwell in them, making them known to Him.
S
SolaScriptura
Guest
So I wonder why “The Catholic” was upset when I was saying essentially the same thing? Your good works play a part in your justification. This is what the Jews thought also. Remember the Pharisee in Luke 18? He thanked God for all his good works. But as Paul says, it is either by grace or by works, but not both. It is like a light switch, one or the other, but not both. Think about that.
T
The_Catholic
Guest
Exactly. But it is all God who gets the glory and praise. It is He who works in us.
S
SolaScriptura
Guest
Exactly what the Jews would say, “I thank you God that I keep the law”. But tell me is your justification by 1) grace, 2) works, or 3) grace and works?
K
KathleenElsie
Guest
D
dbacks5439
Guest
You’re almost there. Good works lead to grace, which leads to salvation. The Sacraments are outward signs of inward grace. By receiving the Eucharist, you receive Christ, therefore you receive grace. By performing good works, you also receive grace. My question is, why is it that you agree with my previous post, and yet say that it’s either works or grace, not both? Also, could you please give me the verse where Paul says it’s either by grace or works? I remember vaguely a similar verse, just can’t put my finger on it.
T
The_Catholic
Guest
Because you are making (purposely or ignorantly I cannot tell anymore) Catholicism sound like the Pharisee in Luke 18 and the Pharisee alongside the tax collector. He thought of himself as great, and “Godly” but his heart was far from the truth. He couldn’t acknowledge that he was a sinner, not like the tax collector could. And in Luke 18 Jesus attacked the man’s heart. His pride and joy was his earthly riches, he had no humility and did not want to give up the “earthly joys of his heart” that kept him from God.
The Church is in no way like this. Ha, so many countless Catholics have given up their riches and decided to live in humility.
You seem to be ignoring so many Biblical verses that clearly condem your line of thinking. We HAVE to live the life man. Our head knowledge means nothing if our hearts are empty.
God bless you.
T
The_Catholic
Guest
By the blood of Jesus Christ, that’s where my justification comes from. His sacrifice on the cross.
Let me ask you, where does your justification come from? Do you believe that mankind is only to accept christ and from then on everything is hunky doory?
God bless you.
S
SolaScriptura
Guest
I was agreeing with you that that is what Catholicism teaches, however I’m disagree that that is what the Scriptures teach.You’re almost there. Good works lead to grace, which leads to salvation. The Sacraments are outward signs of inward grace. By receiving the Eucharist, you receive Christ, therefore you receive grace. By performing good works, you also receive grace. My question is, why is it that you agree with my previous post, and yet say that it’s either works or grace, not both? Also, could you please give me the verse where Paul says it’s either by grace or works? I remember vaguely a similar verse, just can’t put my finger on it.
Romans 11:6
6And if by grace, then it is no longer by works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace.
How do you reconcile your saying it is both, whereas the Apostle Paul says it is one or the other?
S
SolaScriptura
Guest
Yes, in a sense that is true, but you didn’t answer my question in another sense. A number of your co-religionists have already answered with #3 so why do you hesitate? Which is it?SolaScriptura:
By the blood of Jesus Christ, that’s where my justification comes from. His sacrifice on the cross.
The Catholic:
By faith alone in the Gospel of Christ am I justified.
The Catholic:
Hunky doory? Don’t know what you mean by that, however one who savingly embraces Christ does it by faith alone, and they produce good works, but those works are not the means of their justification. The good works are fruit of the justification they already have.
T
The_Catholic
Guest
Because mankind now has Jesus Christ for a savior. He is the fulfillment of the law. We don’t sacrifice animals for our sins anymore, we are not saved by any “good work” that we do. We are forever saved by Jesus Christ, the Messiah.
We do not say that we are chosen by God and now we must keep the commandments in order to be saved, and the blood of animals, but we are saved and washed by the Sacrifice on the cross, Christ. By His grace are we saved. But that does not mean we do not have to live a Christlike life.
Again read 1 John 2:3-6.
As well as this verse: 1 John 3:9: "Whosoever is born of God doth NOT commit sin; for his seed remainith in him, and he cannot sin because he is born of God.
God bless you.
T
The_Catholic
Guest
My friend, explain “Faith alone.” It is a commandment to have faith, to believe in Jesus Christ as God’s Son. Just like “Thou shall not kill.” So “faith alone” in your case a simple belief, is just another work that we do. And we are NOT saved by works. Faith is giving yourself over to Jesus Christ and following Him. Those who look back are not fit for the Kingdom of Heaven.
God bless you.
God bless you.
R
Randy_Carson
Guest
Perhaps there is confusion over “initial grace” (paragraph 2027) and “sanctifying grace” (2023). Consider:
2017 The grace of the Holy Spirit confers upon us the righteousness of God. Uniting us by faith and Baptism to the Passion and Resurrection of Christ, the Spirit makes us sharers in his life.
2018 Like conversion, justification has two aspects. Moved by grace, man turns toward God and away from sin, and so accepts forgiveness and righteousness from on high.
2019 Justification includes the remission of sins, sanctification, and the renewal of the inner man.
2020 Justification has been merited for us by the Passion of Christ. It is granted us through Baptism. It conforms us to the righteousness of God, who justifies us. It has for its goal the glory of God and of Christ, and the gift of eternal life. It is the most excellent work of God’s mercy.
2021 Grace is the help God gives us to respond to our vocation of becoming his adopted sons. It introduces us into the intimacy of the Trinitarian life.
2022 The divine initiative in the work of grace precedes, prepares, and elicits the free response of man. Grace responds to the deepest yearnings of human freedom, calls freedom to cooperate with it, and perfects freedom.
2023 Sanctifying grace is the gratuitous gift of his life that God makes to us; it is infused by the Holy Spirit into the soul to heal it of sin and to sanctify it.
2024 Sanctifying grace makes us “pleasing to God.” Charisms, special graces of the Holy Spirit, are oriented to sanctifying grace and are intended for the common good of the Church. God also acts through many actual graces, to be distinguished from habitual grace which is permanent in us.
2025 We can have merit in God’s sight only because of God’s free plan to associate man with the work of his grace. Merit is to be ascribed in the first place to the grace of God, and secondly to man’s collaboration. Man’s merit is due to God.
2026 The grace of the Holy Spirit can confer true merit on us, by virtue of our adoptive filiation, and in accordance with God’s gratuitous justice. Charity is the principal source of merit in us before God.
2027 No one can merit the initial grace which is at the origin of conversion. Moved by the Holy Spirit, we can merit for ourselves and for others all the graces needed to attain eternal life, as well as necessary temporal goods.
2028 “All Christians . . . are called to the fullness of Christian life and to the perfection of charity” (*LG *40 § 2). “Christian perfection has but one limit, that of having none” (St. Gregory of Nyssa, De vita Mos.
G 44, 300D).2029 “If any man would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me” (*Mt *16:24).
D
dbacks5439
Guest
Sola, thanks for the verse! I can understand how you came to your conclusion. What you forgot to do is read the verses before that one.
I ask, then, has God rejected his people? Of course not! For I too am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
2
God has not rejected his people whom he foreknew. Do you not know what the scripture says about Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel?
3
“Lord, they have killed your prophets, they have torn down your altars, and I alone am left, and they are seeking my life.”
4
But what is God’s response to him? “I have left for myself seven thousand men who have not knelt to Baal.”
5
So also at the present time there is a remnant, chosen by grace.
6
But if by grace, it is no longer because of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace.
This is from the NAB. You are confusing works of the law…with good works. Think about that. Under the old covenant, the Israelites were bound to the law. If they didn’t adhere to it, they would stumble. It was because of this that Elijah is pleading with God. God said that even though some were disobedient, God’s grace saved them. Paul says that a remnant of those 7,000 chosen by grace is still present. Paul is showing that grace is only grace because the law is not binding. You can’t achieve grace through the law. The New Convenant, Jesus, did away with the law, and replaced it with faith. Look at Abraham, see how he was saved by his faith? But in order to do so, he had to act on that faith. He had to DO it. Jesus also said that you must do good works as well, such as feeding the hungry, dressing the naked, etc. Whenever the New Testament uses the word “work”, they usually mean the law. Under works of the law, no one is saved. How can they? Paul just explained that grace can’t be achieved through the law. Since they don’t have grace, they don’t have justification.
I ask, then, has God rejected his people? Of course not! For I too am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
2
God has not rejected his people whom he foreknew. Do you not know what the scripture says about Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel?
3
“Lord, they have killed your prophets, they have torn down your altars, and I alone am left, and they are seeking my life.”
4
But what is God’s response to him? “I have left for myself seven thousand men who have not knelt to Baal.”
5
So also at the present time there is a remnant, chosen by grace.
6
But if by grace, it is no longer because of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace.
This is from the NAB. You are confusing works of the law…with good works. Think about that. Under the old covenant, the Israelites were bound to the law. If they didn’t adhere to it, they would stumble. It was because of this that Elijah is pleading with God. God said that even though some were disobedient, God’s grace saved them. Paul says that a remnant of those 7,000 chosen by grace is still present. Paul is showing that grace is only grace because the law is not binding. You can’t achieve grace through the law. The New Convenant, Jesus, did away with the law, and replaced it with faith. Look at Abraham, see how he was saved by his faith? But in order to do so, he had to act on that faith. He had to DO it. Jesus also said that you must do good works as well, such as feeding the hungry, dressing the naked, etc. Whenever the New Testament uses the word “work”, they usually mean the law. Under works of the law, no one is saved. How can they? Paul just explained that grace can’t be achieved through the law. Since they don’t have grace, they don’t have justification.
- Status