Not By Faith Alone

[dbacks5439]

(sigh). Sola, thanks for the questions. I see that you don’t want to start arguments, you really do seek the truth. I commend you. Red twisted my reasoning. He says that we are saved by Grace Alone. This is false. Sola, Catholics believe there are two forms of grace: Actual and Sanctifying. Actual grace is what God gives us every minute of our day. Sometimes we reject that grace, choosing instead to follow human desires. Other times, we respond to that grace. This grace allows us to love, care, and really show Christ to others. We perform this love by feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, etc. After the work is performed, that actual grace is then transformed into sanctifying grace, grace that sanctifies us, saves us. We need this grace to be saved, but not alone. Faith and good works are integral parts to this grace.

 Sola, another term I see you always incorreclty defining is works. Works can mean two things in regards to the New Testament. Works of the law, and good works in grace. Good works in grace is the works that I've mentioned above. Works of the law, however, refers to Mosaic Law, where it is contractual. A Jew obeys the law, and expects a payment. Through Jesus, we obey through faith, with no expectations of payment. He established a New Covenant where the law is perfected, and now has faith along with it. We have the faith, now we must act on it. That's where actual grace comes in, and the cycle continues. We have faith, we accept actual grace, act on it, actual grace turns into sanctifying grace, and the process repeats.

Whenever you read passages, please read the surrounding text to make sure the word “work” isn’t refering to the law. The only time works refer to good works is in James. I pray your spiritual journey has many guides to help you!

 

[Randy_Carson]

(sigh). Sola, thanks for the questions. I see that you don’t want to start arguments, you really do seek the truth. I commend you. Red twisted my reasoning. He says that we are saved by Grace Alone. This is false. Sola, Catholics believe there are two forms of grace: Actual and Sanctifying. Actual grace is what God gives us every minute of our day. Sometimes we reject that grace, choosing instead to follow human desires. Other times, we respond to that grace. This grace allows us to love, care, and really show Christ to others. We perform this love by feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, etc. After the work is performed, that actual grace is then transformed into sanctifying grace, grace that sanctifies us, saves us. We need this grace to be saved, but not alone. Faith and good works are integral parts to this grace.

Sola, another term I see you always incorreclty defining is works. Works can mean two things in regards to the New Testament. Works of the law, and good works in grace. Good works in grace is the works that I’ve mentioned above. Works of the law, however, refers to Mosaic Law, where it is contractual. A Jew obeys the law, and expects a payment. Through Jesus, we obey through faith, with no expectations of payment. He established a New Covenant where the law is perfected, and now has faith along with it. We have the faith, now we must act on it. That’s where actual grace comes in, and the cycle continues. We have faith, we accept actual grace, act on it, actual grace turns into sanctifying grace, and the process repeats.

Whenever you read passages, please read the surrounding text to make sure the word “work” isn’t refering to the law. The only time works refer to good works is in James. I pray your spiritual journey has many guides to help you!

After a quick read, this post looks very good.

BTW, the Catechism also refers to initial grace which is probably REALLY important to this discussion…you need to add that to the mix.

 

[The_Catholic]

Speaking of confusion again. Wasn’t you the one who answered my question where I asked if you were justified by 1) grace, 2) works, or 3) grace and works with a resounding #1. But now you are saying it is grace #3, that is grace infused works. So which is it?

The Catholic Church teaches that we are saved by GRACE, complete GRACE unmerited on our part. By Christ’s blood we are saved. Jesus’ first recorded COMMAND was “Repent, and believe in the Gospel” (Mark 1:15) and the New Testament clearly states that salvation is received by faith in God through Jesus Christ. Catholics FIRMLY believe in the importance of faith in accepting God’s GIFT of salvation. “I solemnly assure you,” Jesus said, “the man who hears my word and has faith in him who sent me possesses eternal life” (John 5:24). Many other New Testament texts affirm that faith in Jesus Christ leads to salvation, Mark 16:16; John 3:16, 6:28-29, 11:25-27, 20:30-31; Ephesians 2:8-10; 2 Thes. 2:13, etc.

But what is this “faith?” The New Testament shows faith to be much more than an intellectual assent to the proposition that God exists or that Jesus Christ is Lord and Savior. “But be DOERS of the word, and NOT HEARERS only, deceiving yourselves” James 1:22. " But in every nation anyone who fears him and DOES what is right is acceptable to him" Acts 10:35. Also see Matt. 7:16-27; John 3:36; Hebrews 5:9; 1 Peter 1:2. Faith is a gift from God: “For by GRACE are ye saved through FAITH; and that is NOT OF YOURSELVES: THE GIFT OF GOD: NOT OF WORKS, least any man should boast. For we are HIS WORKMANSHIP, created in Christ Jesus unto GOOD WORKS, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them” Ephesians 2:8-10.

TRUE Christian faith means entrusting your whole life to God. It is a commitment to put God first and to do whatever he commands or asks. “And he said unto another, Follow me. But he said, Lord, suffer me first to go and bury my father. Jesus said unto him, Let the dead bury their dead, but go thou and preach the kingdom of God. And another also said, Lord,I will follow thee; but let me first go bid them farewell, which are at home at my house. And Jesus said unto him, NO MAN, HAVING PUT HIS HAND TO THE PLOUGH, AND LOOKING BACK, IS FIT FOR THE KINGDOM OF GOD” Luke 9:59-62.

You see, we have to live the Christ-like life. His commandments are still valid. “Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy but fulfill. For verily I say unto you, Till Heaven and earth pass, one JOT or one TITTLE (yodh, smallest letter of the Hebrew alphabet. It functions as a “Y” in English and looks similar to an apostrophe. A “tittle” is a small projection on the edge of certain Hebrew letters to distinguish them from one another. Jesus emphasizes the importance of keeping even the smallest details of the law) shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled” Matt.5:17-18. Also see 1 John 2:3-6 and 1 John 3:9.

It is way beyond a simple statment such as “accepting Christ.”

 

[The_Catholic]

In the Old Testament they did not have Christ. We, now living in New Testament times, have Christ. He is the grace by which we are saved. Not by obeying commandments, for as I’ve shown, repentence and belief in Jesus as the christ are both commandments: Acts 17:30; 1 John 3:23; and we are not saved by commandments or by the law. But by giving our lives to Christ. That is believing in Him as our savior for our sins, and walking with Him. When we fail we ask his forgivness and then keep going.

But this “faith” is bestowed upon us by God: John 6:44: No man can come to me, except the Father which has sent me DRAW HIM…" “Romans 3:11: …there is none that seeketh after God…” Also see Romans 3:9,10,12-18. And many other verses I already gave, and there are still many more.

That is the “faith” that saves us. And this is the Church’s teaching on this. If this is not your kind of “faith” then you see scripture differently than I, along with the Church, and the early Church Fathers. But you should be able to understand our Church’s teaching now. So if you remain in here chanting “Catholics teach grace+works” then you are clearly just purposely debating because “you” feel you are the “correct” one and we are such fools. That is a prideful attitude to have if that is your case. I hope it is not.

God bless you.

 

[The_Catholic]

Romans 3:27
27Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. On what principle? On that of observing the law? No, but on that of faith.

(The Catholic) Exactly because “Faith” is a gift bestowed upon us. It covers us with Christ’s blood and His Holy Spirit moves us to be like Him. Therefore it’s impossible for mankind to boast, because of this TRUE FAITH.

Boasting is excluded on the principle of faith, because as the Apostle goes on to say in the next chapter of Romans, faith accords with grace!!

The Jews boasted them all. You see this in the parable of the Pharisee:

Luke 18:11
11The Pharisee stood up and prayed about himself: ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other men—robbers, evildoers, adulterers—or even like this tax collector. 12I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get.’

(The Catholic) Yes and this pharisee could NOT acknowledge that he was a sinner, a sinful man indeed of God’s mercy. No Catholic, who rightly understands the Church’s teachings, EVER cast judgment upon another.

 

[SolaScriptura]

SolaScriptura:

Speaking of confusion again. Wasn’t you the one who answered my question where I asked if you were justified by 1) grace, 2) works, or 3) grace and works with a resounding #1. But now you are saying it is grace #3, that is grace infused works. So which is it?

The Catholic Church teaches that we are saved by GRACE, complete GRACE unmerited on our part. By Christ’s blood we are saved. Jesus’ first recorded COMMAND was “Repent, and believe in the Gospel” (Mark 1:15) and the New Testament clearly states that salvation is received by faith in God through Jesus Christ. Catholics FIRMLY believe in the importance of faith in accepting God’s GIFT of salvation. “I solemnly assure you,” Jesus said, “the man who hears my word and has faith in him who sent me possesses eternal life” (John 5:24). Many other New Testament texts affirm that faith in Jesus Christ leads to salvation, Mark 16:16; John 3:16, 6:28-29, 11:25-27, 20:30-31; Ephesians 2:8-10; 2 Thes. 2:13, etc.

No one denies the Catholic Church claims you are saved by grace alone. No one denies the Catholic Church claims faith is necessary. So all the talk about this is just obscuring the main issue I’m trying to get at. The Catholic Church claim that we are saved by grace alone and the necessity of faith does not rule out works are necessary.

But what is this “faith?” The New Testament shows faith to be much more than an intellectual assent to the proposition that God exists or that Jesus Christ is Lord and Savior. “But be DOERS of the word, and NOT HEARERS only, deceiving yourselves” James 1:22.

I’ve answered this before. No one claims faith is just intellectual assent. Faith consist of knowledge, trust, and assent. Even in James 1:22 it distinguishes between DOERS and HEARERS. DOERS refers to works, HEARERS refers to faith. All this is saying is that one who has true faith will also have works. If you don’t have any works then you don’t really have faith.

" But in every nation anyone who fears him and DOES what is right is acceptable to him" Acts 10:35. Also see Matt. 7:16-27; John 3:36; Hebrews 5:9; 1 Peter 1:2. Faith is a gift from God: “For by GRACE are ye saved through FAITH; and that is NOT OF YOURSELVES: THE GIFT OF GOD: NOT OF WORKS, least any man should boast. For we are HIS WORKMANSHIP, created in Christ Jesus unto GOOD WORKS, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them” Ephesians 2:8-10.

Yes, and these quotes are proving my point. Faith is distinguish from works, even though in Eph 10 it states we are created in Christ to do good works. Notice we are in created in Christ first and then the good works. How are created in Christ? Through faith!! Notice the constant distinction in the quotes you are providing between faith/hearing and works/doing.

TRUE Christian faith means entrusting your whole life to God. It is a commitment to put God first and to do whatever he commands or asks. “And he said unto another, Follow me. But he said, Lord, suffer me first to go and bury my father. Jesus said unto him, Let the dead bury their dead, but go thou and preach the kingdom of God. And another also said, Lord,I will follow thee; but let me first go bid them farewell, which are at home at my house. And Jesus said unto him, NO MAN, HAVING PUT HIS HAND TO THE PLOUGH, AND LOOKING BACK, IS FIT FOR THE KINGDOM OF GOD” Luke 9:59-62.

All of this is irrelevant to the issue. No one is denying this.

You see, we have to live the Christ-like life. His commandments are still valid. “Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy but fulfill. For verily I say unto you, Till Heaven and earth pass, one JOT or one TITTLE (yodh, smallest letter of the Hebrew alphabet. It functions as a “Y” in English and looks similar to an apostrophe. A “tittle” is a small projection on the edge of certain Hebrew letters to distinguish them from one another. Jesus emphasizes the importance of keeping even the smallest details of the law) shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled” Matt.5:17-18. Also see 1 John 2:3-6 and 1 John 3:9.

It is way beyond a simple statment such as “accepting Christ.”

We were not talking about the entire Christian, but instead justification or who one comes into a right relationship with God. Most of your post doesn’t even deal with the real issue.

 

[SolaScriptura]

The Catholic:

SolaScriptura:

Romans 3:27

27Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. On what principle? On that of observing the law? No, but on that of faith.

Exactly because “Faith” is a gift bestowed upon us. It covers us with Christ’s blood and His Holy Spirit moves us to be like Him. Therefore it’s impossible for mankind to boast, because of this TRUE FAITH.

SolaScriptura:

Boasting is excluded on the principle of faith, because as the Apostle goes on to say in the next chapter of Romans, faith accords with grace!!

The Jews boasted of them all. You see this in the parable of the Pharisee:

Luke 18:11

11The Pharisee stood up and prayed about himself: ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other men—robbers, evildoers, adulterers—or even like this tax collector. 12I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get.’

Yes and this pharisee could NOT acknowledge that he was a sinner, a sinful man indeed of God’s mercy. No Catholic, who rightly understands the Church’s teachings, EVER cast judgment upon another.

You keep commenting on things without understanding the context. The purpose of the above was to show that Jews were not only relying on the ceremonial law which is what Redbinto was claiming.

 

[SolaScriptura]

In the Old Testament they did not have Christ. We, now living in New Testament times, have Christ. He is the grace by which we are saved. Not by obeying commandments, for as I’ve shown, repentence and belief in Jesus as the christ are both commandments: Acts 17:30; 1 John 3:23; and we are not saved by commandments or by the law. But by giving our lives to Christ. That is believing in Him as our savior for our sins, and walking with Him. When we fail we ask his forgivness and then keep going.

The OT did have Christ, because it is impossible to be saved without Him. The OT had Christ in types and shadows, but nevertheless they had Him. The OT saints had the same Gospel we have as Hebrews 3 & 4 EXPLICITLY states:

Hebrews 4:2
For we also have had the gospel preached to us, just as they did; but the message they heard was of no value to them, because those who heard did not combine it with faith.

Now if you read the end of Chapter 3 and 4 in context you will clearly see that the author is saying the Jews in the wilderness had the same Gospel preached to them as we do today.
The Catholic:

But this “faith” is bestowed upon us by God: John 6:44: No man can come to me, except the Father which has sent me DRAW HIM…" “Romans 3:11: …there is none that seeketh after God…” Also see Romans 3:9,10,12-18. And many other verses I already gave, and there are still many more.

That is the “faith” that saves us. And this is the Church’s teaching on this. If this is not your kind of “faith” then you see scripture differently than I, along with the Church, and the early Church Fathers. But you should be able to understand our Church’s teaching now. So if you remain in here chanting “Catholics teach grace+works” then you are clearly just purposely debating because “you” feel you are the “correct” one and we are such fools. That is a prideful attitude to have if that is your case. I hope it is not.

God bless you.

I’ve been told over and over by Catholic apologists and Catholics more qualified then you that grace infused works are a necessary part of justification. You don’t seem to fully understand the distinctions that are involved in theology. Saying one is saved by grace alone and saying grace infused works are necessary for salvation are not necessarily contradictory.

 

[SolaScriptura]

(sigh). Sola, thanks for the questions. I see that you don’t want to start arguments, you really do seek the truth. I commend you. Red twisted my reasoning. He says that we are saved by Grace Alone. This is false. Sola, Catholics believe there are two forms of grace: Actual and Sanctifying. Actual grace is what God gives us every minute of our day. Sometimes we reject that grace, choosing instead to follow human desires. Other times, we respond to that grace. This grace allows us to love, care, and really show Christ to others. We perform this love by feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, etc. After the work is performed, that actual grace is then transformed into sanctifying grace, grace that sanctifies us, saves us. We need this grace to be saved, but not alone. Faith and good works are integral parts to this grace.

Yes, this sounds more like the typical Catholic position that I have heard instead of what Redbinto and The Catholic are saying.

Very good. It is good to see that you say “works of law” refers to the “Mosaic Law” and not just ceremonial law. So it seems you and Rebinto disagree on this point also. I know this is a point that Catholic scholars disagree on.

OK, but here is the point. There are no such thing as “good works” before one is justified. This justification happens based on faith alone and then the good works come. So this is why we say one is justified by faith alone. James is talking about good works, because he is speaking of an already justified person… This is why he can talk about what Abraham did in Genesis 22 by offering up his son, when we know from Paul in Romans and Galatians that Abraham was justified in Genesis 15

 

[mikeledes]

Yes, this sounds more like the typical Catholic position that I have heard instead of what Redbinto and The Catholic are saying.

Very good. It is good to see that you say “works of law” refers to the “Mosaic Law” and not just ceremonial law. So it seems you and Rebinto disagree on this point also. I know this is a point that Catholic scholars disagree on.

OK, but here is the point. There are no such thing as “good works” before one is justified. This justification happens based on faith alone and then the good works come. So this is why we say one is justified by faith alone. James is talking about good works, because he is speaking of an already justified person… This is why he can talk about what Abraham did in Genesis 22 by offering up his son, when we know from Paul in Romans and Galatians that Abraham was justified in Genesis 15

The works of the unjustified do not merit justification or are meritorious before God. The works Catholics are referring to are works done AFTER one had been made righteous before God in justification. The works of the Law that Paul refers to is the Mosaic Law. Many used the Mosaic law as the chief criteria to determine their standing before God, particularly circumcision (Read Acts 15), and this is what Paul criticizes in Romans and Galatians. The Mosaic Law, or any work, is not able to change you from ungodly to righteous before God. This can only be done by the Cross of Christ.

God Bless,
Michael

God Bless,
Michael

 

[SolaScriptura]

The works of the unjustified do not merit justification or are meritorious before God. The works Catholics are referring to are works done AFTER one had been made righteous before God in justification.

So if the works of the unjustified do not merit justification nor are they meritorious before God why wouldn’t you say justification is by faith alone?

The works of the Law that Paul refers to is the Mosaic Law. Many used the Mosaic law as the chief criteria to determine their standing before God, particularly circumcision (Read Acts 15), and this is what Paul criticizes in Romans and Galatians. The Mosaic Law, or any work, is not able to change you from ungodly to righteous before God. This can only be done by the Cross of Christ.

Once again if the works you are speaking of do not come into play until after justification, is one justified by faith alone?

Grace and Peace,
S.S.

 

[TOME]

From my readings, Pope Benedict XVI’s “Introduction To Christianity” provided the clearest answer to this question for me and I hope I do justice to his teaching.

From what I understand, in order to understand what Faith really is we have to understand who Jesus Christ is and thus we must Understand what the full meaning of the Incarnation is. That is in the person of Jesus, God became man, it was God’s ultimate act of revelation that God is Love - a Love that is (to use a term from scholastic philosophy) pure act. In Christ this love is completely outwardly directed to the other.

Our faith in Jesus Christ, given to us as an unmerited gift, must, therefore, reflect the unconditional love of God revealed in the person of Jesus. Also, in understanding who Jesus as Christ is, according to Benedict, has to be understood that there is no separation between the person (Jesus) and his acts (unconditional love). This is the Jesus Christ we profess to believe in and this is the Jesus Christ of our Faith. Love must be and is the content of our Faith.

Pope Benedict continues to point out that this is expressed in Matthew 25: 31 -46 ( The Last Judgement), “… the profession of faith in Christ demanded by the Lord when he sits in judgement is explained as the discovery of Christ in the least of men, in those who may need my help…to profess one’s faith in Christ means to recognize the man who needs me in the form in which he comes to me here and now; it means understanding the challenge of love as the challenge of faith.” (J. Ratzinger, Introduction To Christianity, Ignatius, San Francisco, pg 208-209).

I think our Holy Father said it best so I will not try to add anything further.

 

[mikeledes]

So if the works of the unjustified do not merit justification nor are they meritorious before God why wouldn’t you say justification is by faith alone?

Once again if the works you are speaking of do not come into play until after justification, is one justified by faith alone?

Grace and Peace,
S.S.

Because the Protestant use of justification by faith alone generally upholds the notion that works subsequent to justification absolutely play no role in our final salvation (actual entrance into the eternal kingdom or glorification). We say they do. Romans 2:6-8 states:

6God “will give to each person according to what he has done.” 7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. 8But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger.

Galatians 6:7-10

7Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. 8The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature[a]will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life. 9Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up. 10Therefore, as we have opportunity, let us do good to all people, especially to those who belong to the family of believers.

After justification, we have an obligation to practice righteousness. If we fail to persevere in practicing righteousness, God will withdraw His mercy (John 15:2,6, Romans 11: 22). We must conform our lives to the free gift of justification.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[Redbandito]

So if the works of the unjustified do not merit justification nor are they meritorious before God why wouldn’t you say justification is by faith alone?

Once again if the works you are speaking of do not come into play until after justification, is one justified by faith alone?

Grace and Peace,
S.S.

Because, justification is not a one-time event. Initial justification comes through faith, yet it doesn’t end there. We must continue to bear the fruit of this grace through faith, by loving. Or else, we will “fall” as Paul warns us in 1 Cor 10:13.

So NO, faith alone doesn’t justify. Grace alone justifies. This grace is manifested first in faith, and continues to grow through Christian charity. Those who separate themselves from this through unrepented grave sin and rejection of the grace can fall from justification. Thus, cooperating with God’s grace (i.e. working) is necessary. That doesn’t mean we earned it. It just means we are responsible for taking care of the gift God has given us. So while we can never merit salvation by our actions, we can choose at any time (even after initial justification) to lose it.

 

[SolaScriptura]

Because the Protestant use of justification by faith alone generally upholds the notion that works subsequent to justification absolutely play no role in our final salvation (actual entrance into the eternal kingdom or glorification).

So would you say initial justification is by faith alone? and subsequent/final justification is also based on our works?

 

[Mickey]

This is why he can talk about what Abraham did in Genesis 22 by offering up his son, when we know from Paul in Romans and Galatians that Abraham was justified in Genesis 15

He was justified before Genesis 15.

 

[Redbandito]

Speaking of confusion. I never said they were the same thing, my point was that they were in accord for our justification whereas works was on the other side of the fence…

Uhhhhh…no confusion here. I quite clearly understood that is what you were saying. I responded by telling you that the Scripture doesn’t teach that. You keep citing verses that talk about it is by grace through faith, not by works that we are justified. I agree. We don’t receive initial justification based on anything work we have done. Thus, we are justified, and ultimately saved by GRACE. The fact that this grace is initially received by faith, does not mean that faith is opposed to works. What Eph 2:8-10 simply tells us is that we cannot work our way into our initial justification. I cannot obligate God to adopt me into His family. This is pure gift, received though faith. Where we seem to be parting is that you then take that, and assume that justification is completed at this point, and there is no way to lose it. Thus, works remain opposed to this grace through faith, rather than being necessary fruits of it.

All wrong. The first sentence is wrong as I have already pointed out. The rest of it is wrong in that I did make an argument for faith and not only grace. I quoted this verse:
Romans 4:16
16Therefore, the promise comes by faith, so that it may be by grace and may be guaranteed to all Abraham’s offspring—not only to those who are of the law but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham. He is the father of us all.

So here the Apostle Paul makes the connection that the promise is by faith, so that it may be by grace. Faith and grace are on the side from the Apostles perspective in reference to justification whereas works are on the other side…

This citation strengthens the point I made in the previous paragraph. Through our faith, God gives us grace. I agree! Again, we cannot work our way to our initial justification. Divine adoption is the pure gift of mercy and grace by our Lord Jesus Christ. Yet, Paul also assures us we can “fall” from this grace. Thus, AFTER we become children of God, by grace through faith, WE are obligated to “persevere” in this through doing good. So in other words, this verse does not further your argument against mine. I agree completely with Paul’s point here, as does the Catholic Church.

Furthermore, in Romans 4, Paul is speaking of works of the law. Thus, circumcision does not justify us is the real point Paul is making here. You have not adequately responded to my points on “works of the law.” At least not to my knowledge. Please address this in your next post.

What??? Of course he does when speaking of justification.
Romans 4:1-5
1What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather, discovered in this matter? 2If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about—but not before God. 3What does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”
4Now when a man works, his wages are not credited to him as a gift, but as an obligation. 5However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness. .

Settle down partner. I have already addressed your misuse of Rom 4. If you want to get anywhere with me, prooftexting will not help. I have addressed this text already. Try responding to that instead.

Ephesians 2:8-10
8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9not by works, so that no one can boast. 10For we are God’s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

Galatians 3:2-3
2I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by observing the law, or by believingwhat you heard? 3Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit, are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort?

There are others, but it is pretty amazing that you don’t believe the Apostle Paul ever contrasts faith and works…

You’re not paying attention. I didn’t say that. I said that when Paul does contrast works with faith, it is nearly always in the context of “works of the law,” which you nicely proved for me by these citations. Notice your citation of Gal 3:2. What does he state? “Did you receive the Spirit by OBSERVING THE LAW?” Thus, the works Paul speaks of here, are those of the Mosaic ceremonial law.

And again, Eph 2:8-10 is not contrasting faith and works, but grace and works. He states it is by “grace” we are saved, not by works. How we receive that initial grace is by faith. Whether we remain in it or not is by what we do. “10For we are God’s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.”

 

[Redbandito]

I guess it is you who are confused once again. First of all, I never stated grace and works are always opposed. I’ve tried to be careful in this regard which is why I mentioned Paul contrasts the two in justification. It is justification that is by faith alone not salvation.

You never stated that, but you seem to equate them (perhaps unintentionally) in your posts. When you cite verses that say it is either by grace or works, and then proceed to say that this shows it is by faith alone, your application of your theology tends to disagree with this denial. And I appreciate you taking the time to write these and be careful. However, I am in no way confused about your points. I simply disagree.

 

[Redbandito]

So works are not needed for justification? Why is James 2:24 always quoted? Wasn’t I supposed to be the one who is confused? It seems you don’t understand the distinction between the different causes of justification. This is made in clear in your question where you think you have me on the horns of a dilemma…

Works are not needed for our INITIAL justification. Works only justify us AFTER we have received God’s sanctifying grace, and therefore the work we are doing is actually cooperation with the work of Christ in us. This is a big difference. If it was me alone, then I could boast. Since it is Christ who is doing good in me, the only one who can boast is Christ.

First of all, you keep confusing justification and salvation which I have been careful to distinguish. Second, it depends on what cause you are speaking of it. For example, if you are speaking of the instrumental cause then the answer is 2. If you are speaking of the formal cause the answer is 1.

I am not confused with justification and salvation. Those who persevere in justification until the end, will ultimately be saved. Regardless, I applaud you for your explanation of the instrumental and formal causes. Much in the same way, I would say that the formal cause of our ongoing justification is God’s grace. And our works are the instrumental cause. Meaning God continues to justify us through the works He produces in us.

 

[Redbandito]

Speaking of confusion again. Wasn’t you the one who answered my question where I asked if you were justified by 1) grace, 2) works, or 3) grace and works with a resounding #1. But now you are saying it is grace #3, that is grace infused works. So which is it?

Again, I am not confused. Faith and Works are both products of man’s cooperation with GRACE. Thus, any works we do are products of grace. Therefore, like you would not answer faith and grace, since you acknowledge that grace is the formal cause of our justification, I would not answer grace and works, because grace is the formal cause of our justification. There is no confusion. It is by GRACE. I initially receive this grace through faith. The grace continues to abide and grow in me as God’s workmanship in me increases.