Notre Dame presses charges against pro life protestors

[Rach620]

Ninety bishops opposed the action, some in very harsh language.

I can’t see how ND is *not *the bad guy here.

They key I was trying to point out is that it is not monolithic. The administration made an error, but there are actually good administrators at ND (such as those who approved ND Response’s activities), good departments, good professors, and good students.

I am not at all making excuses for the action of inviting Obama and honoring him with a degree. I side with the bishops on that one, and was one of the graduating students in the Grotto on Commencement day. But I think that to vilify Notre Dame itself is wrong, as there continues to be quite a bit of good that goes on there.

Yes, they were the bad guy in this issue and that point should not be confused. It’s not even close to comparing their badness with the actions of people protesting. The problem is ND, not the protestors.

I’m not trying to “compare badness”. I’m saying that what the protestors did was cause themselves to get arrested in order to create their own spectacle. What they drew attention to, in doing so, was not IMO the actual issue at hand (ND honoring Obama) but instead the fact that they were trespassing. Their response didn’t fit what was going on, IMO. It was just designed to garner maximum media attention–and in the end it detracted from the more ‘targeted’ form of protest that was led by students, on campus. That’s my problem with it, a problem with their technique.

Ok, but itsn’t that like saying “Obama does some good things”? I think that’s out of proportion to the problem that occurred.

No, it’s not, because Obama is an individual and ND is not. Notre Dame is a large academic institution that employs thousands, and educates thousands more. The actions of a few administrators do not spell the extent of Catholic life and culture at the school. There is a very strong orthodox Catholic community there that has been influential in the spiritual formation of many students. If those orthodox students who might have gone to ND give up on the school because of these developments, not only are they missing out on what would have been an excellent educational experience, but Notre Dame will undoubtedly lose all touch with the Church which is its lifeblood.

Nothing in this life is “all bad”. But I cannot see how ND can be defended in their actions with the Obama scandal.

Father Jenkins, Provost Burish, the Trustees and Fellows cannot be defended in their actions with the Obama scandal–there we agree.

The true fact that she has not and will not turn her back is made worse by the insults given to her honor with this terrible event. Thankfully, it was denounced by many bishops. Thankfully also, reparation was made by the many students offering prayers, and the Mass – but also by those who were arrested. They offered their suffering for the unborn children.

It’s similar to Operation Rescue itself. People tried to block abortion clinics in order to save the lives of babies. I don’t think we should scoff at or look down our noses at those who suffered much – arrests and ridicule – to try to save lives.

It may not be our own personal calling, but let’s not judge the good people standing up for life in their own way. That’s what civil disobedience is about.

I understand that the intentions were good, but like I’ve said before, I think that these forms of protest at Notre Dame were counterproductive. I would have much rather seen headlines in every paper about the thousands gathered on campus to prayerfully protest President Obama than a few pictures of an airplane and headlines which read “20 arrested” or “several dozen protested at the gates” because that more accurately reflected the reality of what happened Commencement weekend. Randal Terry knew that the arrests would get attention, and in seeking that attention I think they distracted from the other forms of protest going on on campus, especially as so many ‘outside’ pro-life groups criticized the student group for “not doing enough”.

 

[imperial]

Let’s not play with words,
Nd Jenkins invites and bestows an honorary degree to Obama
Catholic priest and protesters honoring thousands of innocent babies that have been murdered and/or will be murdered. :angel1:
You are either for me or against me, :yup:
watching the arrest of Fr Weslin was so sad :bighanky:
Can’t believe what had accrued shocking… :imsorry:

 

[BobCatholic]

Sorry I’ve I’m misunderstanding you, but it seems like you are ungrateful to be an American.

I’m grateful to have my remaining freedoms. Not sure how much longer they’ll last if the left continues their power grab.

Would you like it if Pro-Choice protestors were allowed to protest your parish’s private property and enter your church during Mass under the banner of free speech?)

If they did, the leftist dominated government would not file any charges whatsoever. However, those who would object to those pro-abortion protesters are now under the threat of hate crimes legislation currently in our congress.

The video starts with the priest being arrested–what happened before that? Was he yelling obscenities at the police or Notre Dame students?

Interesting how you are quick to assume evil actions about people who hold differing political viewpoints, without sufficient evidence. You did that with me, and now the priest. This is not charitable.

 

[RobbyS]

They key I was trying to point out is that it is not monolithic. The administration made an error, but there are actually good administrators at ND (such as those who approved ND Response’s activities), good departments, good professors, and good students.

I am not at all making excuses for the action of inviting Obama and honoring him with a degree. I side with the bishops on that one, and was one of the graduating students in the Grotto on Commencement day. But I think that to vilify Notre Dame itself is wrong, as there continues to be quite a bit of good that goes on there.

I’m not trying to “compare badness”. I’m saying that what the protestors did was cause themselves to get arrested in order to create their own spectacle. What they drew attention to, in doing so, was not IMO the actual issue at hand (ND honoring Obama) but instead the fact that they were trespassing. Their response didn’t fit what was going on, IMO. It was just designed to garner maximum media attention–and in the end it detracted from the more ‘targeted’ form of protest that was led by students, on campus. That’s my problem with it, a problem with their technique.

No, it’s not, because Obama is an individual and ND is not. Notre Dame is a large academic institution that employs thousands, and educates thousands more. The actions of a few administrators do not spell the extent of Catholic life and culture at the school. There is a very strong orthodox Catholic community there that has been influential in the spiritual formation of many students. If those orthodox students who might have gone to ND give up on the school because of these developments, not only are they missing out on what would have been an excellent educational experience, but Notre Dame will undoubtedly lose all touch with the Church which is its lifeblood.

Father Jenkins, Provost Burish, the Trustees and Fellows cannot be defended in their actions with the Obama scandal–there we agree.

I understand that the intentions were good, but like I’ve said before, I think that these forms of protest at Notre Dame were counterproductive. I would have much rather seen headlines in every paper about the thousands gathered on campus to prayerfully protest President Obama than a few pictures of an airplane and headlines which read “20 arrested” or “several dozen protested at the gates” because that more accurately reflected the reality of what happened Commencement weekend. Randal Terry knew that the arrests would get attention, and in seeking that attention I think they distracted from the other forms of protest going on on campus, especially as so many ‘outside’ pro-life groups criticized the student group for “not doing enough”.

Just to tall you, if Randall Terry had been a thousand miles away, you all would have gotten no more press that you did get. That story line in the media was nice words exchanged between “moderate” Catholics and the Obama administration. Nothing you did was going to change that.

 

[Havard]

If your brother decided to throw a party in honor of the President, would you ask to come over to his house to discuss his decision with him, or would you picket his front lawn on the day of the event?

ND are our brothers and sisters. If anyone is likely to change the hearts and minds of the ND administration, it’s the folks from ND Response, not Randall Terry, Ambassador Keyes, etc.

 

[reggieM]

If your brother decided to throw a party in honor of the President, would you ask to come over to his house to discuss his decision with him, or would you picket his front lawn on the day of the event?

ND are our brothers and sisters. If anyone is likely to change the hearts and minds of the ND administration, it’s the folks from ND Response, not Randall Terry, Ambassador Keyes, etc.

Then again, it may well be true that nobody is likely to change ND’s mind. After all, 90 bishops actually tried and they failed. With that, as I believe, clearly a stronger message was needed.

 

[elts1956]

Sorry I’ve I’m misunderstanding you, but it seems like you are ungrateful to be an American. There are billions and billions of people on this planet that wish they had the free speech rights you have here in the US and would gladly switch countries with you. Obviously, we are going to have some reasonable restrictions on the freedom of expression preventing people from stuff like showing pornographic movies in public, people flashing their privates in public, people using curse words on public TV, people trespassing on private property, etc (would you like it if anti-Bob protesters where allowed to invade your property and enter your home and bedroom under the banner of free speech? Would you like it if Pro-Choice protestors were allowed to protest your parish’s private property and enter your church during Mass under the banner of free speech?)

Notre Dame’s a private school run by a religious order (not a public school run by the government). The government gives private schools, especially religious schools, more freedom to set their own rules (for example the Christian university that was in the news the other day for abolishing the Democrat student club because of how Democrats are Pro-Abortion… yes, the US government allows them the freedom to do that). If you don’t like the rules at a private school, especially at a religious school, you have the freedom to go to another school like a public school or another private university with different rules. Nobody’s forcing you to go to Notre Dame, it’s voluntary a decision their students make freely.

As for Notre Dame’s policies that they freely choose for themselves, I don’t know what they are (maybe they prohibit all protests on their private property or maybe the just prohibit protests by non-students). But who cares? It’s a private school and you are not forced to go to school there, it’s voluntary a decision their students make freely. If Notre Dame freely chooses for themselves to protect the freedom of the individuals who want to work or study at Notre Dame, a **private **school, without being distracted by protestors, that’s their business. It’s a private school, private property.

But yeah, as for all this news regarding Pro-Life protestors being arrested at Notre Dame, I’m not going to jump to conclusions before I hear both sides of the story. Who authorized it? Who called the police? Just some random student that was trying to get work done? Some student that was upset that the protestors were yelling obscenities at him? The school officials? Did the police just show up on their own? As for that priest in the video, what happened there? The video starts with the priest being arrested–what happened before that? Was he yelling obscenities at the police or Notre Dame students? Did the police show up and respectfully inform him that he was trespassing on private property, asking him politely to leave or else they would arrest him, and the priest refused? I’d like to see the police report, I’d like to interview the witnesses, etc. But as for the whole situation regarding the arrests of the trespassers on Notre Dame’s campus, part of me doesn’t care, because I’m sure there are reasonable explanations for everything (there usually are). But another part of me cares, because:

1. it is sad to see the anti-Notre Dame (Our Lady) fanatics using this situation to spread their hatred here on Earth live the Devil loves, just like it would be sad to for me see any anti-Pro Life fanatics using a situation to spread their hatred, especially if it involved a prestigeous Catholic school that they were trying to smear. 2) If there was injustice being done, I want to know about, but I want to hear it from somebody who honestly considered both sides of the story and researched all the aspects and issues involved with an desire to tell the complete truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

Quote "maybe they prohibit all protests on their private property or maybe the just prohibit protests by non-students"Quote Notre Dame rules state that any protestors/exhibitions must be approved by the Notre Dame board, (which by the way run Notre Dame). If these actions are not approved by the board, all demonstrations will be illegal and those participating are open to arrest.

Quote: The video starts with the priest being arrested–what happened before that? Was he yelling obscenities at the police or Notre Dame students. Quote Uh huh yelling obscenities WHILE CARRYING A ROSARY?? Typical. Of skewed thought processes anyway.

Quote: 1) it is sad to see the anti-Notre Dame (Our Lady) fanatics using this situation to spread their hatred here on Earth live the Devil loves, just like it would be sad to for me see any anti-Pro Life fanatics using a situation to spread their hatred, especially if it involved a prestigeous Catholic school that they were trying to smear.Quote:

Please reexamine your reasoning. Who was being smeared here and by whom? And who was allowing it? You have really twisted your thinking. Anti-Notre Dame?? If your mind wasn’t being so obscured by releativsim (the let’s be fair doctrine of the pro aborts) you would see the protesters were ENRAGED not by Our Lady, but what was being done to her by one of the most radical pro abortion candidates and his minions at Nortre Dame the world has ever seen. Get it straight.

 

[Holly3278]

This is disgusting. It seems like pro-lifers are always being attacked somehow or another in this nation.

 

[BobCatholic]

This is disgusting. It seems like pro-lifers are always being attacked somehow or another in this nation.

Well, we are being forced to the back of the bus.

One day, we will be declared enemies of the state and arrested.

 

[Teelynn]

Exactly. The protesters’ method of ‘civil disobedience’ didn’t really target the wrong they were protesting–the honoring of President Obama. They were NOT arrested for opposing honoring Obama; they WERE arrested for trespassing. Again, they intended to get arrested for breaking a pretty standard regulation on a private university campus which bans outside protests, whatever the cause. And again, there were plenty of other outlets through which they could express themselves.

They chose this particular avenue, and knew what the consequences would be before-hand. It’s not like NDSP was standing there in riot gear, waiting for them to cross the threshhold onto campus each day they prayed at the gates–it was only when they intentionally walked several hundred feet onto campus that arrests were made.

I stand by my statement that ND is not a monolithic ‘bad guy’. Many, many efforts were made to accomodate ND Response’s protest, even while the University honored Obama across campus. And the particular arrest incidents don’t even play directly into this issue–the very same protesters could have been protesting any other issue and would have been similarly arrested, though it can’t be said that those protesting other issues would have had such accomodations made for them TO protest. Gay rights activists attempted to bring a bus to campus during their nationwide pride tour a couple of years ago, and were arrested/escorted off, with no on-campus demonstration organized.

We all wish the overall outcome at ND had been different–that Obama had never been invited, that an honorary degree hadn’t been bestowed. But I firmly believe, still, that ND isn’t ALL bad. There are many, many good people at the University, and many good things still happening there. I don’t think Our Lady is turning her back on Notre Dame, but is instead praying all the more to her Son on its behalf.

Please refer to my post #34 and click on the link. ND is not seeking leniency for the 2 women arrested that disobeyed their rules and came onto the campus to pass out literature on abortion and its repercusions.

I can almost see the reason some of them were arrested. What I CANNOT SEE, is ND refusing to seek leniency for those accused. This is clearly “payback” from the University. If ND would drop these charges, they would go a long way in healing the rift with their pro life counterpart. ND is thowing their weight around with the pro life community. Thumbing their nose at them (us) so to speak. The legal action taken by ND maybe by some was justified, but the ramping up of the situation is downright vindictive. Their secular progressive “claws” are showing.

 

[imperial]

I can almost see the reason some of them were arrested. What I CANNOT SEE, is ND refusing to seek leniency for those accused. This is clearly “payback” from the University. If ND would drop these charges, they would go a long way in healing the rift with their pro life counterpart. ND is thowing their weight around with the pro life community. Thumbing their nose at them (us) so to speak. The legal action taken by ND maybe by some was justified, but the ramping up of the situation is downright vindictive. Their secular progressive “claws” are showing.

Good on you ND lock em up, throw the keys away they are evil criminals,
“Why” how dare they defend babies. Feed them to the lions.
Don’t let them get away with it. ND [Near Demonic] you must honor THE ONE
The worship of Obama or any Government is paganism,

 

[Beau_Ouiville]

This is disgusting. It seems like pro-lifers are always being attacked somehow or another in this nation.

Huh? You have a group of folks who say they are out to get arrested, they go on private property and the security asks them to leave. They don’t and they are arrested and prosecuted for trespassing. That’s all there is here.

Where’s the attack and by whom? Don’t do the crime …

 

[RobbyS]

We have the right to demand that a Catholic University act like one. I think it is time for the Holy See to sanction Fr. Jenkins, his Order, and Notre Dame (or should it now be call Notre Shame).

The Holy See is not going to do anything. The Vatican is too busy bending over backwards to make Obama happy. Sad fact is that the Middle East “peace-process” means more to them than the pro-life cause.

 

[RobbyS]

Huh? You have a group of folks who say they are out to get arrested, they go on private property and the security asks them to leave. They don’t and they are arrested and prosecuted for trespassing. That’s all there is here.

Where’s the attack and by whom? Don’t do the crime …

And the punishment shoud fit the crime. They are not being punished for trespassing but for disobeying an ND rule. ND acts as though the two women were handing out marijuana, or something. They should have been caught and released, Going beyond that is being vindictive.

 

[Beau_Ouiville]

And the punishment shoud fit the crime. They are not being punished for trespassing but for disobeying an ND rule.

Now, that’ s just not so. In order for them to be criminally prosecuted the state has to identify a particular state statute which was allegedly broken, not some Notre Dame regulation.

The punishment should fit the crime? Do you seriously think that they are facing jail time?

 

[RobbyS]

Now, that’ s just not so. In order for them to be criminally prosecuted the state has to identify a particular state statute which was allegedly broken, not some Notre Dame regulation.

The punishment should fit the crime? Do you seriously think that they are facing jail time?

And exactly what state law do you think they broke, one that justifies such rough treatment? If they were in violation of a court order, this sort of stiff would be more in line. It seems they are doing what officlals usually do, which is spinnning the facts to suit their purposes.

 

[reggieM]

As mentioned before, ND could open up an abortion clinic on the campus.

According to some people, that would be perfectly fine since abortion clinics are legal and ND would not be committing any crime at all.

However, the people who stepped on the wrong sidewalk – they should be arrested because that was a “crime”.

 

[Beau_Ouiville]

And exactly what state law do you think they broke, one that justifies such rough treatment?

I’m not sure, but I believe it was misdemeanor trespassing. Sorta like misdemeanor retail theft – they will prosecute a person for that, too.

Rough treatment? Let’s be real – the protesters went to the campus for the purpose of being arrested. That’s what they said ahead of time. The result was not ‘rough treatment’, in my book.

 

[elts1956]

I very well understand the anger and frustration that happens when a University, especially Nortre Dame, which was the flagship and pride for Catholicism for decades commits slander by inviting the most pro abortion POTUS we have ever had to “extend his graces” on a graduating class, by giving the commencement address.

It is very hard to understand why Bishop D’ Arcy, Pope Benedict XVI don’t just say, “Get thee behind me Satan”, and do away with NDU’s title of being a Catholic College. I personally don’t know if it would do any good, but I myself, if I were in charge, would be very tempted to disallow ND to call themselves Catholic.

The problem is, there are still “some” students attending the school who are actively Catholic. This is from an email I received from Dr. Robert Moynihan who is on the National advisary board of the Cardinal Newman Society.

Recently Dr. Moynahan spoke with Archbishop Raymond Burke, the head of the Apostolic Signatura, the office which oversees the correct administration of justice in the Church.

This is Archbishop Burke’s position on Notre Dame:

Moynihan: Now that President Obama has completed the visit to Notre Dame, and delivered his address, what lessons can be learnt from the event?

Burke: We all have witnessed the compromise and, indeed, betrayal of the Catholic identity of Notre Dame University. Thoughtful Catholics cannot help but reflect upon the great danger for a Catholic institution in pursuing a kind of prestige in the secular world, which leads to a betrayal of the sacred aspect of its work, namely the fidelity to Christ and His teaching. So I think everybody now realizes the gravity of the situation. Also I believe that the whole situation has sensitized more people with regard to the gravity of the practice of procured abortion in our nation, that is, they realize even more how far we have gone away from God’s will for human life. That the premiere Catholic university in the United States would give an honorary doctorate of law to one of the most aggressive pro-abortion politicians in our history is profoundly shocking.

Now, we cannot forget what has happened at Notre Dame. We need to take the measures that are necessary so that this is not repeated in other places. If it could happen at Notre Dame, where else could it happen?

We have to give witness to the Gospel of Life in a way that people can receive it. Bishop John D’Arcy of Fort Wayne-South Bend, Indiana, the diocese in which Notre Dame University is located, has given a very powerful witness. He knows the good things that are happening at Notre Dame, for example, a very strong participation in sacramental life among the students, daily Mass, regular confession and so forth. As a Bishop, he wants to save these good things, while at the same time correcting what is gravely wrong.

I have friends who are professors or students at the university who tell me that there are a great number of the students are very devout in their practice of the Catholic faith, and strive in every way to live their faith and grow in it. We certainly want to save that and promote it.

So the question for me is…is Archbishop Burke and Bishop D’Arcy’s method of “lets save what is left” enough?

It will be interesting to see what Rome and Bishop D’Arcy can do to turn NDU back to the
Catholic institution it once was.

 

[elts1956]

The Holy See is not going to do anything. The Vatican is too busy bending over backwards to make Obama happy. Sad fact is that the Middle East “peace-process” means more to them than the pro-life cause.

I realize you are angry. As am I. BUT the way I understand the very confusing rules and guidelines of the Church regarding behavior, I don’t believe the “Vatican/Pope” has direct jurisdiction over a University in the US, or anywhere else. Chastisement would be up to the Bishop whose diocese it is in. So don’t blame the Vatican for something it is not directly responsible for.

And I DON’T see the Vatican bending over backward to keep bo happy. The leaders of the Catholic Church, due to their own lack of diligence, are walking a very fine rope here. It is one of make, or break. The Church has already been divided through the actions of some of the hierarchy here in the U.S. Some secular media are even speaking of the “American Catholic Church” little realizing that it is built on sand. Of course some cafeteria catholics will think their wish for rule of individual conscience has happened and stay with the parishes who have gone off course.

It will take many more, the likes of, Finn, Martino, Burke, Hermann, Chaput and others to take us back to Rome.