Novus Ordo Missae - Good for the Church?

[Joysong]

Dear Netmil(name removed by moderator),

How easy it is to become confused by the written word.

First Joysong, I didn’t say SSPX, I said TLM.
Look again

Quote:
Originally Posted by netmil(name removed by moderator)
This does beg the question…
If all of these groups are offering a “TLM” and taking over in Africa and Europe, then why in heaven’s name wouldn’t the Bishops give an Indult and draw the people back to the NO churches?

That’s true, in your post you said “TLM,” yet you were speaking about “these groups” [below] whom you stated offered the TLM. I could not determine any other interpretation at the time I read it. If this was not your meaning, then I stand corrected.

Perhaps if you look in places like Africa where the SSPX, |FSSP, and ICRSS are completing taking over.

 

[historyb]

It is strange that you say that, the bold portion I mean. I once posted a question on those lines, would you have converted if the Mass was still in Latin and if the Vatican II reforms had not gone through.

---

I’ll take it step further though. I would be willing to wager that not an unsizeable number of converts, as well as cradle Catholics would defect or schism off if the Church started to lean more towards orthodoxy to any great degree.

Being a convert and now a revert I would say that at one time I would agree. In Fact I did say that if the TLM was in I may not have converted in the first place. However, the opinion I voiced than would not be valid now.

I found that when I was faithful to the Church before I was drawn to the TLM and now that I am back I am once again drawn to the TLM.

Myself, I think a sizable number of converts would not defect, it seems the ones I run into would stay. Now cradle Catholics I know nothing about.

 

[netmilsmom]

Dear Netmil(name removed by moderator),

How easy it is to become confused by the written word.

That’s true, in your post you said “TLM,” yet you were speaking about “these groups” [below] whom you stated offered the TLM. I could not determine any other interpretation at the time I read it. If this was not your meaning, then I stand corrected.

I’m really sorry you’re confused.
It’s simply that the people I know from Africa state that tradition (the TLM and all the groups that offer it) is the way to go with the people.

Do you have any proof that they are wrong?

 

[Joysong]

Unfinished:

My point is this - the Tridentine Mass, when done with charity (as it was not always done in days past. My mom still has nightmares about going to hell if the Host touched her teeth.) The Novus Ordo injected something that was often forgot at the time - we are all human. (Now, I was not alive, but both my parents, while fond of the TLM, had a rough run with the nuns and people like I described) Every TLM parish still has these types of people. It is almost silly what some of these people come up with to complain about.

Coming from you, a traditionist, I really respect your balanced perspective and openness to problems with those who espouse either the TLM or NO. Thanks for sharing your refreshing viewpoint. It reminded me of some good that occurs with the new liturgy; i.e., the relaxation of laws that were so strict they inspired unwholesome fear rather than love of God.

I too, was a product of the nuns in Catholic grade school. We were instilled with so great a fastidiousness for the “laws” of the church that it caused extreme scrupulosity in me, taking many years to overcome. Being a kid with a terrible habit of picking my nose, I abstained from Holy Communion for years because I thought I broke my fast. Yet all those years going to daily mass, not a single nun approached me to ask why I did not receive communion. Whoa!

Basically, I grew up in the age when keeping a law was stressed, rather than relationship with Jesus, who loved me. Could it be that this is the mindset of some of our traditionists? The law and absolute perfection concerning externals are more important? I do feel much sorrow for these people, for I understand them completely from having worn their shoes, and I lift them in prayer very often.

 

[Karin]

I too, was a product of the nuns in Catholic grade school. **We were instilled with so great a fastidiousness for the “laws” of the church that it caused extreme scrupulosity in me, taking many years to overcome. Being a kid with a terrible habit of picking my nose, I abstained from Holy Communion for years because I thought I broke my fast. Yet all those years going to daily mass, not a single nun approached me to ask why I did not receive communion. Whoa! **

Basically, I grew up in the age when keeping a law was stressed, rather than relationship with Jesus, who loved me. Could it be that this is the mindset of some of our traditionists? The law and absolute perfection concerning externals are more important? I do feel much sorrow for these people, for I understand them completely from having worn their shoes, and I lift them in prayer very often.

Hmm…so it is the nuns fault you picked your nose and did not recieve communion? The rules are there for a reason…since when are we allowed to pick and choose what rules/laws we are going to follow or not?

 

[Walking_Home]

Coming from you, a traditionist, I really respect your balanced perspective and openness to problems with those who espouse either the TLM or NO. Thanks for sharing your refreshing viewpoint. It reminded me of some good that occurs with the new liturgy; i.e., the relaxation of laws that were so strict they inspired unwholesome fear rather than love of God.

I too, was a product of the nuns in Catholic grade school. We were instilled with so great a fastidiousness for the “laws” of the church that it caused extreme scrupulosity in me, taking many years to overcome. Being a kid with a terrible habit of picking my nose, I abstained from Holy Communion for years because I thought I broke my fast. Yet all those years going to daily mass, not a single nun approached me to ask why I did not receive communion. Whoa!

Basically, I grew up in the age when keeping a law was stressed, rather than relationship with Jesus, who loved me. Could it be that this is the mindset of some of our traditionists? The law and absolute perfection concerning externals are more important? I do feel much sorrow for these people, for I understand them completely from having worn their shoes, and I lift them in prayer very often.

---

I find it interesting that two different mindsets immerged from that time period. I was taught by nuns (school and catechism) and I emerged with a love for our Lord and for His Church-- and also with a complete understanding that–yes --Hell exits and even though God loves us—we can indeed end up there. The more love of God—the more we strived in observing His Church’s laws and externals—it was all one package. We did not separate one from the other.

Interesting enough–my first ecounter with the terminology of having a relationship with Jesus vs. “keeping the law” was in conversations with protestants.

 

[netmilsmom]

Hmm…so it is the nuns fault you picked your nose and did not recieve communion? The rules are there for a reason…since when are we allowed to pick and choose what rules/laws we are going to follow or not?

No pun intended!

 

[Karin]

No pun intended!

 

[Unfinished]

Coming from you, a traditionist, I really respect your balanced perspective and openness to problems with those who espouse either the TLM or NO. Thanks for sharing your refreshing viewpoint. It reminded me of some good that occurs with the new liturgy; i.e., the relaxation of laws that were so strict they inspired unwholesome fear rather than love of God.

I too, was a product of the nuns in Catholic grade school. We were instilled with so great a fastidiousness for the “laws” of the church that it caused extreme scrupulosity in me, taking many years to overcome. Being a kid with a terrible habit of picking my nose, I abstained from Holy Communion for years because I thought I broke my fast. Yet all those years going to daily mass, not a single nun approached me to ask why I did not receive communion. Whoa!

Basically, I grew up in the age when keeping a law was stressed, rather than relationship with Jesus, who loved me. Could it be that this is the mindset of some of our traditionists? The law and absolute perfection concerning externals are more important? I do feel much sorrow for these people, for I understand them completely from having worn their shoes, and I lift them in prayer very often.

I agree. It can become that way. But not all areas were like you and my mother went through.

Externals are supposed to represent internal feelings. The externals ARE VERY important. Human beings, while spiritual creatures, have five senses. When the visual things, like statues fade away, then the smell of the incense, then the lyrical beauty of our prayers during the Mass…

You can see where I am going. We are left with quite a shallow liturgy. And it is much harder to show our outward devotion and love of Christ without these things.

What about Churches where I cannot even bend knee to our Lord when I enter because the tabernacle does not even reside in the Church?

Yes, if you do not have, or were not instilled with a love of Christ, the externals will seem silly or frivolous. (No, I am NOT saying you don’t love Christ. But more to the uneducated Catholics/children who say “Why are we doing this? This is stupid!”) But every gesture, every movement, every law is important. But you must understand why each law is kept. And that was most likely the problem. My mother was always told not to chew the Host…but why? It seems with the Novus Ordo we have gone to the other extreme. “Anything goes… just so long as you love Jesus!”

I am not trying to run you down if it seems like I am. I know how bad it is, my poor mother has the worst case of scrupulosity as well. But I still don’t think the Novus Ordo was a solution, I think proper Catholic education was. Which, we have still not recieved.

 

[ComradeAndrei]

I am not trying to run you down if it seems like I am. I know how bad it is, my poor mother has the worst case of scrupulosity as well. But I still don’t think the Novus Ordo was a solution, I think proper Catholic education was. Which, we have still not recieved.

One issue was that a Jansenist spirit of “piety” was fairly common in the Church. This is an issue that needed (and still needs) to be dealt with but it seems that most of the time when someone recognizes this they go to the opposite extreme. Protestantism isn’t the answer to Jansenism.

If we love God we should strive to do our best to follow the laws and decrees of His Church. We should not have the conception of God waiting to strike us down for not genuflecting properly but neither should we have the idea that God really doesn’t care how bad we screw up just as long as we have some sliver of general positive regard towards Jesus.

 

[Triumpha]

Funny, because Pius XII started the fiddling and let in all the fiddlers from 1948.

I can believe it.

I’m well used to Popes saying one thing and doing another.

Wide and generous application of the Ecclesia Dei indult? How many indult Masses in Rome?



But, sometimes I do think words speak louder than actions.

Triumpha.

 

[AJV]

I can believe it.

I’m well used to Popes saying one thing and doing another.

Wide and generous application of the Ecclesia Dei indult? How many indult Masses in Rome?

I’m by no means an expert. but I think there are 3.

 

[Unfinished]

One issue was that a Jansenist spirit of “piety” was fairly common in the Church. This is an issue that needed (and still needs) to be dealt with but it seems that most of the time when someone recognizes this they go to the opposite extreme. Protestantism isn’t the answer to Jansenism.

If we love God we should strive to do our best to follow the laws and decrees of His Church. We should not have the conception of God waiting to strike us down for not genuflecting properly but neither should we have the idea that God really doesn’t care how bad we screw up just as long as we have some sliver of general positive regard towards Jesus.

Right on.

 

[netmilsmom]

If we love God we should strive to do our best to follow the laws and decrees of His Church. We should not have the conception of God waiting to strike us down for not genuflecting properly but neither should we have the idea that God really doesn’t care how bad we screw up just as long as we have some sliver of general positive regard towards Jesus.

Ding! Ding! Ding!
We have a winner!!!
Early in 2007 and your wisdom shines!

Spot on!

 

[InTheWilderness]

The current mass has certainly been of great benefit to me personally. I can’t say what might have been with the TLM.

I also know of numerous converts and reverts who were encouraged by the current mass.

I also like the current lectionary, though I wonder about the removal of the final Gospel reading.

I also think the loss of what some say is as much as 70% of the original prayers during the swap was a waste.

For any who happen to advocate a complete switch back to the TLM, I think that would be one of the worst things done in the recent history of the Church. Such a move would be reactionary in the worst sense of the word. On the other hand, universal availability of the TLM would quite likely be a good thing.

Benedict XVI is heading in the right direction regarding a reform of the reform.

 

[Missa_Solemnis]

For any who happen to advocate a complete switch back to the TLM, I think that would be one of the worst things done in the recent history of the Church. Such a move would be reactionary in the worst sense of the word. On the other hand, universal availability of the TLM would quite likely be a good thing.

Then why was a complete switch to the Novus Ordo so good…(and remember…up until Ecclesia Dei the TLM was pretty much unofficialy banned)

yet switching back to the Mass of all Ages would be “the worst thing in the history of the Church”

 

[anamchara]

There are zillions of parishes across this nation. There are approx. 160 alone in my small remote diocese. To suggest that these zillions, or even a miniscule minority, have barney blessings

 

[mcliffor]

I’m by no means an expert. but I think there are 3.

There is an FSSP chapel, which is a really just a pit in the ground, no bigger than a bed room and designed for one family and falling apart. Given the fact that there’s another Baroque Church on every corner, this surprised me. I think the Institute of CTK has one low mass per sunday in the Church of Gesu and Maria. If you consider the ratio of TLMs to NOs in Rome, it is MUCH lower than most diocese here in the US. Who knows what the politics are behind that, but it certainly isn’t a wide and generous application.

It could also be that there’s no demand for the TLM. Rome is the most hedonistic, irrelgious city I’ve ever been to, so I don’t imagine there are all that many mass goers to begin with.

 

[Joysong]

Mcliffor:

It could also be that there’s no demand for the TLM. Rome is the most hedonistic, irreligious city I’ve ever been to, so I don’t imagine there are all that many mass goers to begin with.

I have the sense that you are posting this data as your personal observation with regard to Rome, rather than from actual Catholic demographics. These apparently contradict that view. This table indicates that Italy ranks #5 worldwide, having a 97% Catholic population.

We can only speculate about the absence of TLM liturgies in the presence of such a great number of Catholics.

What is very disturbing to me was the low 26% in the US. Does that tell us we have a problem? It brings me back to the statement I made earlier in the thread about why would anyone convert when we present ourselves as a bunch of dissatisfied grumblers to others who watch this forum. Our lack of enthusiastic joy does not give a welcome note to those who may be considering Catholicism.

 

[netmilsmom]

Joysong:

As I indicated previously, those who are satisfied, will rarely if ever begin a thread called, “I love my N.O. Liturgy.” No, only those who are subjected to problems come to this forum. It is not the norm.

Well, we see things the way we want.

1. Joysong, we know that you were not so enamored with the experience before VII and are very happy in your experience now (we also know that you selectivelty respond on threads, come in late and only address the points that you have a strong voice on. That seems to be a trend here)
2. There have been many threads of recent light with people stating a return to Latin or how wonderful their liturgy is. We just had one about great priests teaching from the pulpit. Look again.
3. If people were happy with their liturgies, then when posters did complain, many would come it and say how good each has it. Although that is happening more and more, it hasn’t been this way for a LONG time. People have looked longingly at EWTN Holy Masses and got slapped in the face with what each was missing.
4. One need not rely on CAF to see the vast wasteland of innovation in our parishes. We can easily go to the Roamin’ Catholic columns. When I went through the entries for San Diego when one of our posters was looking for an EWTN type Holy Mass and found a big ONE.

So, because you are Charismatic and see nothing wrong with the innovations of those masses, you would see the silence of parishioners as an affirmation.

As I have said many a time, offer one of every mass in each Vicariate…
TLM
NO with Latin and Greek
NO with innovation
Charismatic
LifeTeen

Then let the market decide.
Until everyone knows what he/she is missing, you have no clue whether they love their liturgy or not.

But a sure way to tell is how the Charismatic movement is waning and parishes like mine are growing by leaps and bounds.