Novus Ordo Missae - Good for the Church?

[netmilsmom]

I have the sense that you are posting this data as your personal observation with regard to Rome, rather than from actual Catholic demographics. These apparently contradict that view. This table indicates that Italy ranks #5 worldwide, having a 97% Catholic population.

We can only speculate about the absence of TLM liturgies in the presence of such a great number of Catholics.

What is very disturbing to me was the low 26% in the US. Does that tell us we have a problem? It brings me back to the statement I made earlier in the thread about why would anyone convert when we present ourselves as a bunch of dissatisfied grumblers to others who watch this forum. Our lack of enthusiastic joy does not give a welcome note to those who may be considering Catholicism.

CAF is not that powerful.
Most Catholics have no clue about it.

At the same time, most Catholics get a mass that looks like the Protestant service up the street, with the added bonus of people beating each other to the parking lot after.
So why not go to the Protestant church?
I know many from my old “Catholic Community” went to the more reverent Lutheran church and thought nothing of it.
They knew nothing of the catechism and the DRE wanted the people to have a “good experience” rather than learn about the sacraments.

Then wondered why they were leaving,

 

[Joysong]

Netmil(name removed by moderator):

Well, we see things the way we want.

Most of your insinuations are false and slanderous, and can be proved by going back and reading my posts, particularly in this thread where I stated that I am not blind to innovations, and that I think they are sad.

Many times I have stated clearly that I am not a charismatic, but it angers many, including you, that I defend their right to worship in the same way as the rest of Catholics in their own particular rites. You know this fact well, for we are not strangers to one another.

If it pleases you to continue these false statements, be my guest, for I am quite used to it, and have grown a thicker skin.

 

[netmilsmom]

Most of your insinuations are false and slanderous, and can be proved by going back and reading my posts, particularly in this thread where I stated that I am not blind to innovations, and that I think they are sad.

Many times I have stated clearly that I am not a charismatic, but it angers many, including you, that I defend their right to worship in the same way as the rest of Catholics in their own particular rites. You know this fact well, for we are not strangers to one another.

If it pleases you to continue these false statements, be my guest, for I am quite used to it, and have grown a thicker skin.

So I’ve taken out the offending word.
We’ve gone round and round about it, understand my own experience of people claiming they are not Charismatic yet changing everything in a parish to be that way.

Okay, I took it now.
Are you going to address the rest or will you prove me right?

 

[Walking_Home]

Most of your insinuations are false and slanderous, and can be proved by going back and reading my posts, particularly in this thread where I stated that I am not blind to innovations, and that I think they are sad.

Many times I have stated clearly that I am not a charismatic, but it angers many, including you, that I defend their right to worship in the same way as the rest of Catholics in their own particular rites. You know this fact well, for we are not strangers to one another.

If it pleases you to continue these false statements, be my guest, for I am quite used to it, and have grown a thicker skin.

---

Except they --just like us—are bound to the faithfull observance of the norms. So in essence—there is no such thing as a charismatic Mass.

vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/ccdds/documents/rc_con_ccdds_doc_20040423_redemptionis-sacramentum_en.html#Chapter%20III

[3.] The norms contained in the present Instruction are to be understood as pertaining to liturgical matters in the Roman Rite, and, mutatis mutandis, in the other Rites of the Latin Church that are duly acknowledged by law.

[114.] “At Sunday Masses in parishes, insofar as parishes are ‘Eucharistic communities’, it is customary to find different groups, movements, associations, and even the smaller religious communities present in the parish.”[202] While it is permissible that Mass should be celebrated for particular groups according to the norm of law,[203] these groups are nevertheless not exempt from the faithful observance of the liturgical norms.

 

[Joysong]

1. Joysong, we know that you were not so enamored with the experience before VII and are very happy in your experience now (we also know that you selectivelty respond on threads, come in late and only address the points that you have a strong voice on. That seems to be a trend here)

Why do I sense that I am being baited? Anyway, since you know so much about me, you also know that I do not read or post very often, as can be proved through my profile. Is it a forum rule that one is not allowed to come in late and post? Such being the case, I don’t read every single post in liturgy’s section, so maybe I do miss a few - perfectly normal, no? Also perfectly normal to have an opinion and express it whenever I do, in fact, post in some threads. Does my strong voice intimidate you?

Incidentally, I have no dislike for the mass I was raised in. It is simply that I like the new one much better.

If your intent is to admonish me after personal scrutinies of my posts, then may I suggest a private message? It is unfair to the OP to derail his thread with scuttlebut like this.

 

[anamchara]

Incidentally, I have no dislike for the mass I was raised in. It is simply that I like the new one much better.

If your intent is to admonish me after personal scrutinies of my posts, then may I suggest a private message? It is unfair to the OP to derail his thread with scuttlebut like this.

Joysong, you have been beautifully crystal clear and your posts are well thought out. You use reason and gentleness, a combination I highly respect. It’s been obvious to me that you have a great respect for the old Mass but see the benefits of the new, this is my feelings on this subject as well. I perfer a nice balance of both and feel we do need to be careful about going too far one way or other.

A friend of mine who was raised in and remembers the Latin Mass once told me he cannot understand why anyone would want to go back to pre-VACII. He felt it was cold and unwelcoming. He and his wife are my neighbors and they had not been going to church, infact he hadn’t even baptized his two girls 7 & 14. I asked them to come with us to Church and he could not believe how much had changed and absolutely loved it. He nearly fell out of his pew when there was laughter lol, he joked about this for a long time. Anyway, since this time over a year now, His daughters both have been baptized and recieved 1st commuion. His wife is converting and getting baptized this Easter Vigil.

Now there’s one story for you of how the N.O. helped bring someone back. I really feel our parish is just fine and our Mass valid. I understand people are concerned about abuses and lack luster clergy but I think we will always have this. But I honestly feel it’s very rare in the extremes that so many claim.

God Bless you Joysong, I’ve enjoyed reading your very sound posts.

 

[Joysong]

Dear Anamchara,

You are a welcome spring breeze on a very cold day, and I thank you so much for your encouragement and kindness!

What an apostle you are! Just seeing these last few posts of yours, I can see why they accepted your invitation. You exude the charity of Christ. That is truly what the Church needs to bring home the straying sheep.

Thanks again,
Carole

 

[dessert]

The NO mass is good to me because it is in english. I am a cradel catholic revert and before 70 it was hard to really relate to in latin but I still dearly love the latin. If I had known it turned to english I might have turned back sooner but if it returned to latin I would not leave. People I try to convert find it easier to understand in english. The hymns are wonderfull but it seems like too many. Our Echaristic service is done reverently and there isn’t much talking before mass but a lot after, and it seems very social. I’ve been to a TLM and I loved it but now I prefer the NO because it is in english. I would except whatever the bishop deems neccessary. dessert

 

[Karin]

It is unfair to the OP to derail his thread with scuttlebut like this.

lets not derail it any further with nose picking or scuttlebut

 

[Formosus]

Though I do think the NO has been bad for the Church these past 40ish years, I do not put all the blame on the rite itself. A good deal of it has to do with a psudo spirit of VII that has overtaken the minds of many of the Clergy and laity. The 1965 Missal in its original form , before the abuses and tampering occured, is probably closest to what the Council Father’s recommended . It is most likely the best liturgy for the Church to return to , though you wouldn’t see any complaints from me if they went back to the 62 Missal .

 

[netmilsmom]

Though I do think the NO has been bad for the Church these past 40ish years, I do not put all the blame on the rite itself. A good deal of it has to do with a psudo spirit of VII that has overtaken the minds of many of the Clergy and laity. The 1965 Missal in its original form , before the abuses and tampering occured, is probably closest to what the Council Father’s recommended . It is most likely the best liturgy for the Church to return to , though you wouldn’t see any complaints from me if they went back to the 62 Missal .

I want (and have) and EWTN style Holy Mass.
Thank You Lord!
Is that what you are speaking of?

 

[ComradeAndrei]

Many times I have stated clearly that I am not a charismatic, but it angers many, including you, that I defend their right to worship in the same way as the rest of Catholics in their own particular rites.

There is only one Roman Rite, with two legitimate expressions of that one Rite (the Novus Ordo and the Traditional). Any priest who celebrates the Novus Ordo Missae must do so according to its established norms. A “Charismatic Mass”, “Spanish Mass” etc. are only styles which even assuming they fall within legitimate rubrics, have absolutely no canonical standing. No one has a “right” to a so-called “Charismatic” Mass.

A friend of mine who was raised in and remembers the Latin Mass once told me he cannot understand why anyone would want to go back to pre-VACII. He felt it was cold and unwelcoming. He and his wife are my neighbors and they had not been going to church, infact he hadn’t even baptized his two girls 7 & 14. I asked them to come with us to Church and he could not believe how much had changed and absolutely loved it. He nearly fell out of his pew when there was laughter lol, he joked about this for a long time. Anyway, since this time over a year now, His daughters both have been baptized and recieved 1st commuion. His wife is converting and getting baptized this Easter Vigil.

Thats nice and I really hope they keep the Faith, but I know people who left the Church or stick it out but have difficulties. They wondered what ever happened to the Church they remembered in which there was so much reverence and respect for our Eucharistic Lord, where there already was a tight sense of true Catholic community, where they could leave the world and all its pomps and temptations and worship God in Spirit and Truth with beauty and a sense of the transcendent.

Or people who either left the Church or were members of a protestant church who say, "Why leave the respect and reverence for God I have in my present church for the laxity and banality of your average Catholic “faith community”?

The same thing the cadre of “Spirit of Vatican II” priests told my grandparents generation? “What you learned in the Baltimore Catechism is wrong.”,“Get with the times, why do you insist on being so rigid?” “Rubrics? That isn’t what the Spirit of Vatican II is calling us to follow.”

What do you tell those people? Many realized that they didn’t know what they had until it was gone.

I have great respect for those folks who wish the Church still had all the reverence and tradition of the 62 Mass but keep on keeping on with the stuff that many folks are subjected to. Those are the type of people who are Catholics no matter what, on good days or bad. They didn’t leave because they didn’t like what the Church did.

 

[Missa_Solemnis]

I want (and have) and EWTN style Holy Mass.
Thank You Lord!
Is that what you are speaking of?

I know a lot of people are going to hate me for this…but Ive seen quite a few EWTN’s Masses…and havent liked a single one.

I think when people mention the EWTN Mass in a TLM vs. NO discussion…they are trying to reference the latin.

Yes its true the EWTN uses more Latin than just about every Novus Ordo ive ever seen. Its true people recieve kneeling there and on the tongue. Its true that the homilies are actually doctrinatly correct.

But using it in a discussion over wether or not the Novus Ordo is better and/or equilivant to the TLM is hardly relevant.

Using the Latin Lanuage does not make something traditional. The EWTN Mass is just as displeasing to me as any Novus Ordo.

The language is NOT the issue. Neither is the form, the words, or the decorations in the Church/chapel.

Its the theology behind the Mass. And in many cases the NO brings a theology of community worship and celebration, (which though true…) is not the point of the Mass.

The Mass is a Sacrifice. Which the TLM captures beautifully in even the most minute details (such as the direction the Priest faces, and the very flow of the Liturgy)

The EWTN Mass may be more reverent, liturgically correct, and ‘traditional’ then the TLM. But its still a Novus Ordo.

Its still the same ‘breed’ of liturgy that is taking over today, and carries the same errors.

I realize that im going to sound like a pecimist. I also realize that the EWTN Mass is considered by many here as the pinnacle of Novus Ordo worship.

Honestly I would definitely prefer it if all Parishes offering the Novus Ordo, offered it like they do in the EWTN chapel.

But I just dont like it when it is somehow made to sound like the very face of the American Liturgy.

If I had to (and its a difficult task indeed) pick a decent Novus Ordo Mass…it would have to be the Vatican Mass as celebrated by Pope Bennedict XVI.

Pope John Paul II (rest in peace) however…had a knack for allowing a bit ‘non-christian’ elements into his Massess. Such as dancing Natives in pagan costumes etc. etc.

His Vatican Masses however are A-Okay with me

 

[netmilsmom]

If I had to (and its a difficult task indeed) pick a decent Novus Ordo Mass…it would have to be the Vatican Mass as celebrated by Pope Bennedict XVI.

What is the difference between an EWTN Holy Mass and that of the Vatican (besides the Pope of course)?

 

[Missa_Solemnis]

What is the difference between an EWTN Holy Mass and that of the Vatican (besides the Pope of course)?

Id have to say that there isnt much of a difference.

Which is percisely why I said that the EWTN Mass is still dissapointing for some Traditionalists despite the Latin, kneeling, rubrics, etc.

I said that if i “had to pick” which is “very difficult” I would pick the Vatican Mass.

Its 100% latin (which again isnt the issue…but is a plus) and Pope Benedict is by far my favorite theologian.

But again…that is only if I “had” to pick.

www.fssp.org has some beautiful pictures of a TLM being celebrated by the aforementioned liturgical and theological genius.

Pope Benedict XVI!

 

[netmilsmom]

Id have to say that there isnt much of a difference.

Which is percisely why I said that the EWTN Mass is still dissapointing for some Traditionalists despite the Latin, kneeling, rubrics, etc.

I said that if i “had to pick” which is “very difficult” I would pick the Vatican Mass.

Its 100% latin (which again isnt the issue…but is a plus) and Pope Benedict is by far my favorite theologian.

But again…that is only if I “had” to pick.

www.fssp.org has some beautiful pictures of a TLM being celebrated by the aforementioned liturgical and theological genius.

Pope Benedict XVI!

So really, it’s like a Latin NO, right?

My hubby and I will be attending our local TLM within the next few weeks.
I’ll see the difference there as well, right?

I’m actually pretty excited as our Men’s choir that performed Gregorian Chant on Christmas have been invited there.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

Its still the same ‘breed’ of liturgy that is taking over today, and carries the same errors. No Catholic in good standing with the Church can make this claim. The Mass contains NO errors ontollogically, though it may be abused. It cannot lead the faithful into impiety. No liturgy of the Church may, as per Trent

Pope John Paul II (rest in peace) however…had a knack for allowing a bit ‘non-christian’ elements into his Massess. Such as dancing Natives in pagan costumes etc. etc.

**The last paragraph betrays a lack of information on how papal Masses are planned during the pope’s travels: By local bishops’ conferences. The pope shows up with his homily prepared, but down to the vestments, it’s the province of the local conferences. Much is made by “traditionalists” of the fact that a bare-chested woman read the OT reading or the Epistle in the presence of John Paul II at the papal Mass during his trip to Papua New Guinea. I rather imagine the old Holy Father was equally taken aback and probably embarassed. Not his fault, however. Blame the local bishops. **

**And what, pray tell, constitutes “pagan” costumes? The clothes of a region are generally simply that: regional clothes. Did someone dress up as Odin or Thor? **

 

[netmilsmom]

The last paragraph betrays a lack of information on how papal Masses are planned during the pope’s travels: By local bishops’ conferences. The pope shows up with his homily prepared, but down to the vestments, it’s the province of the local conferences.

Didn’t some of it have to do with the Master of Ceremonies as well?
I heard he was pretty innovative.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

Didn’t some of it have to do with the Master of Ceremonies as well?
I heard he was pretty innovative.

The current one is supposed to be a very demon of innovation , but kept on the job by HH Pope Benedict. Again, it depends on whom one is relying for information. The old master of ceremonies, Cardinal Noe (sp), an innovator? Hardly!

 

[netmilsmom]

The current one is supposed to be a very demon of innovation , but kept on the job by HH Pope Benedict. Again, it depends on who one is relying for information. The old master of ceremonies, Cardinal Noe (sp), an innovator? Hardly!

It must be the current one that I heard about.
Maybe B16 just wants to keep his friends close and his enemies closer.

Seems the MC is doing a good job now.

JPII was so spiritual, I really feel he saw the best in everyone.
(My hubby is the same way when it comes to judgements on motivations.)

People took advange of that, IMO.