Novus Ordo Missae - Good for the Church?

[Triumpha]

I voted “no”.

And it’s not like we weren’t forewarned!

Pope Pius XII did say that fiddling with the liturgy would be suicidal, or words to that effect.

Triumpha.

 

[AJV]

I voted “no”.

And it’s not like we weren’t forewarned!

Pope Pius XII did say that fiddling with the liturgy would be suicidal, or words to that effect.

Triumpha.

Funny, because Pius XII started the fiddling and let in all the fiddlers from 1948.

 

[Fergal]

Funny, because Pius XII started the fiddling and let in all the fiddlers from 1948.

Now now.

Let’s not ruin their picnic!!

Try to keep the truth at bay just a little longer.

 

[CatholicNick]

And where else might the SSPX impose their liturgies other than a continent that is basically illiterate, persecuted, and starving for anyone who is able to bring them a ray of hope.

Thanks for the laugh… Your description of Europe is rather amusing.

God help us who don’t reside in the glorious Fatherland…

 

[Goblin_Taters]

Originally Quoted by Joysong:

How does this have a bearing on the US or the rest of the world? One small country with one TLM Church is indicative of universal choice and attendance? My “one” (and only) TLM church in Pittsburgh is full of devotees, too, but they come from a 120-mile radius. This proves nothing. And where else might the SSPX impose their liturgies other than a continent that is basically illiterate, persecuted, and starving for anyone who is able to bring them a ray of hope. How sad that their hopes will be shattered when they learn their liturgists are in schism. You applaud this?

Just to add some of my thoughts on the matter. St. Boniface is the only Indult TLM community in Pittsburgh. However, it should be noted that it is a rather large community (by indult measures), and is in a large church that could pass as a cathedral. I’ve been there for High Mass several times. Also, there is an SSPX chapel in Carnegie, PA. Not as many people attend there though.

Also, many who feel they are too far away to attend a Latin Mass will attend a Byzantine Divine Liturgy instead. Oftentimes they do this, not because they prefer it to the TLM, but because of the distance of the Tridentine Mass. I have one friend who refuses to attend the Indult because he sees it as a tool of the bishops, and he will attend the SSPX because of the Liturgy (not because he believes everything SSPX stands for). And it must be remembered that there are numerous Eastern Churches (both Catholic and Orthodox) in the Pittsburgh area. Many Latin Catholics who voiced their preference of the Tridentine Latin Mass over the Novus Ordo have become Orthodox. Other Latin Catholics frequently attend the Divine Liturgies of the many Eastern Catholic churches in the area. In fact, one of my friends calls such people “Latin refugees”

 

[Joysong]

CatholicNick:

Thanks for the laugh… Your description of Europe is rather amusing.

Thanks Nick, I’m glad to have provided a moment of joy for you. Maybe this will help, for I see that you could have misinterpreted my meaning.

Joysong:

And where else might the SSPX impose their liturgies other than a continent that is basically illiterate, persecuted, and starving for anyone who is able to bring them a ray of hope.

Originally Posted by Missa Solemnis
Perhaps if you look in places like Africa

where the SSPX, |FSSP, and ICRSS are completing taking over.

 

[Walking_Home]

Thanks Nick, I’m glad to have provided a moment of joy for you. Maybe this will help, for I see that you could have misinterpreted my meaning.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joysong
And where else might the SSPX impose their liturgies other than a continent that is basically illiterate, persecuted, and starving for anyone who is able to bring them a ray of hope.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Missa Solemnis
Perhaps if you look in places like Africa where the SSPX, |FSSP, and ICRSS are completing taking over.

Quote=Joysong
How does this have a bearing on the US or the rest of the world? One small country with one TLM Church is indicative of universal choice and attendance? My “one” (and only) TLM church in Pittsburgh is full of devotees, too, but they come from a 120-mile radius. This proves nothing. And where else might the SSPX impose their liturgies other than a continent that is basically illiterate, persecuted, and starving for anyone who is able to bring them a ray of hope. How sad that their hopes will be shattered when they learn their liturgists are in schism. You applaud this?

---

You left out the FSSP and ICRSS. Are they “imposing” their liturgies on the poor illiterate people.

 

[netmilsmom]

---

You left out the FSSP and ICRSS. Are they “imposing” their liturgies on the poor illiterate people.

You forgot "persecuted, and starving "

 

[CatholicNick]

Thanks Nick, I’m glad to have provided a moment of joy for you. Maybe this will help, for I see that you could have misinterpreted my meaning.

Ha - That will teach me to read more carefully in future.

I apologise.

 

[Goblin_Taters]

Originally posted by Walking_Home in regard to Joysong’s post:

You left out the FSSP and ICRSS. Are they “imposing” their liturgies on the poor illiterate people.

Just a thought, but unlike most present-day Catholic bishops and priests, who view the Novus Ordo as normative, but also see the legitimacy of the TLM, the SSPX and other similiar groups see the TLM as more or less, despite what some may say, the sole Mass of the Latin Rite. Perhaps in this sense the SSPX “impose” their liturgies. Not by force but by a belief that only the TLM is the true Mass of the Latin Church.

And, as Walking_home mentions, the FSSP. They are in full-communion with the Bishop of Rome, and yet they, like the SSPX, are not content with leaving aspects of the Novus Ordo unchallenged. In fact, the journal *The Latin Mass *receives many contributions from priests of the FSSP. These priests are not hesitant to voice their views on the Novus Ordo Mass.

 

[netmilsmom]

Ha - That will teach me to read more carefully in future.

I apologise.

This does beg the question…
If all of these groups are offering a TLM and taking over in Africa and Europe, then why in heaven’s name wouldn’t the Bishops give an Indult and draw the people back to the NO churches?

 

[Walking_Home]

You forgot "persecuted, and starving "

---

Yikes—

 

[Joysong]

Palmas:

Look at the general disrespect in our society as a whole, and it would be tough to think that if the n.o. wasn’t promulgated, there wouldn’t be the same problems in the Latin mass.

Hi Palmas,

I thought it would be amusing to share a comment made by my pastor at mass today regarding the family, along the lines of your post.

“In America, look how well the parents are obeying their children!”

 

[Joysong]

N.M.M.:

This does beg the question…
If all of these groups are offering a TLM and taking over in Africa and Europe, then why in heaven’s name wouldn’t the Bishops give an Indult and draw the people back to the NO churches?

Some people, to make a point, may stretch the truth a bit, Netmil(name removed by moderator). Maybe we should ask first, where are the documented statistics on this? As in the case with Unfinished’s post stating “tens of thousands” were entering the TLM, it was not his meaning as we now know.

A google search will show that Africa’s Catholics are growing rapidly, yet how many of these are actually SSPX? I don’t believe they are included in the official counts made for Catholics, so it remains to be seen. OTOH, LeFebvre did select Africa as his mission territory, so I don’t doubt that there are quite a few in the movement.

And yes, the adjectives describing Africa’s impoverished culture are far more descriptive in reality than the few I typed here. Isn’t that typically the Church’s ripe soil of conversions and vocations?

 

[palmas85]

I voted yes, because “Certainly!” was not one of the choices.

For those who want fruits, the converts I know (and I know several) simply would not have converted in a TLM world. So I call it a call to conversion.

If we put this in a forum less skewed toward traditionalists, I believe the affirmatives would outweigh the negatives by more than two to one.

Of course, the presider (I said that on purpose) should follow the rubrics, but I don’t see any value to having a GIRM-inator ticking off everything that’s wrong and losing the reason he/she is at the Mass.

John

It is strange that you say that, the bold portion I mean. I once posted a question on those lines, would you have converted if the Mass was still in Latin and if the Vatican II reforms had not gone through.

I WAS BASHED, RAKED OVER THE COALS AND VILIFIED

The general tone was how dare I pose such a question Why that would question the motives of their conversion. I was uncharitable, rude and mean spirited and possessed of a Pre Vatican II mindset to boot. Yet now, you verify what I suspected all along. Amazing, simply amazing…

I’ll take it step further though. I would be willing to wager that not an unsizeable number of converts, as well as cradle Catholics would defect or schism off if the Church started to lean more towards orthodoxy to any great degree.

Heck a lot of people can’t or won’t follow the rules now, how would they manage if the Church got strict again??

Just an aside there was a book published in the mid eighties, the name escapes me now, but it had to do with demonic influence in the Church. It was a pretty radical book, even for me, written by a Jesuit of all people, and was way way way out there, but in it the author predicted that by 2010 a large segment in fact the majority of the Catholic Church in the United States would indeed be in schism and open rebellion to Rome over orthodoxy being imposed from above.

It will be interesting to see if that prediction comes true.

 

[Joysong]

Netmil(name removed by moderator) and Walking Home,

Here is a FYI update on the papal document concerning Africa and the language he used to describe the continent:

1. After correctly noting that Africa is a huge continent where very diverse situations are found and that it is necessary to avoid generalisations both in evaluating problems and suggesting solutions, the Synodal assembly sadly had to say: “One common situation, without any doubt, is that Africa is full of problems. In almost all our nations there is abject poverty, tragic mismanagement of available scarce resources, political instability and social disorientation. The results stare us in the face: misery, wars, despair. In a world controlled by rich and powerful nations, Africa has practically become an irrelevant appendix, often forgotten and neglected.”

1. For many synod fathers contemporary Africa can be compared to the man who went down from Jerusalem to Jericho; he fell among robbers who stripped him, beat him and departed, leaving him half dead (cf. Lk. 10:30-37). Africa is a continent where countless human beings, men and women, children and young people are lying, as it were, on the edge of the road, sick, injured, disabled, marginalized and abandoned.
   They are in dire need of good Samaritans who will come to their aid.

1. Although Africa is very rich in natural resources, it remains economically poor.

rc.net/africa/catholicafrica/

You surprise me for being so late. I looked for you to pick at my posts last evening.

 

[ComradeAndrei]

I truly respect your opinion but until the Vatican says “no more” these liturgies need to be offered.

But they have, at least in the sense of the abuses must stop.

They may well die off on their own, but the Vatican says they can be offered, so they should be offered. Let the market decide.

They will, and I think that the Holy See is trying their hardest not to purposefully push people out of the Church. I think they want to encourage orthodoxy and will do so regardless if people want to jump ship but I think they want to proceed carefully.

As to the “market”, that really shouldn’t matter. I’m going to go out on a limb here and say that most people wouldn’t know orthodoxy if it slapped them in the face. People will generally choose the path of least resistance-not a good way to “pick” the Liturgy of a part of the Universal Church.

Of course people who converted to Catholicism prior to Vatican 2 had no problems with Latin Mass - they couldn’t jolly well get anything else and no one asked them if they had a preference!!! Those who did have problems most likely wouldn’t have converted in the first place.

Why should there be a Liturgy to fit every arbitrary fancy? Anyone who converts to the True Faith should do so because the Church is just that-the True Faith. Conversion for any other reason is a farce.

And I’d be willing to make a sizeable bet that plenty left the Catholic Church because of Latin as well. An important point of difference during the Reformation, for example, would have been liturgy in Latin (Catholic) v vernacular (non-Cath).

That reminds me of an interesting conversation I had. Some folks said that if Latin came back they’d leave the Church. Besides the shocking and unfortunate level of ignorance exhibited by folks like this (i.e. the type that believe that Vatican II really did away with Latin and turned the altar around), this is basically being a Sunshine Catholic. Catholic when it suits you, or fits your tastes and notions but ready to bail if the going gets tough or something happens that you don’t like.

I stay fast in the Church, despite the problems because I trust the Lord’s promise that the gates of Hell shall never prevail. I offer it up when I have to sit through banal modernist liturgies and I pray that God would grant me the grace to continue to say in the Church come hell or high water and praying all the while that He does indeed vouchsafe to grant a return of orthodoxy and tradition.

 

[netmilsmom]

Some people, to make a point, may stretch the truth a bit, Netmil(name removed by moderator). Maybe we should ask first, where are the documented statistics on this? As in the case with Unfinished’s post stating “tens of thousands” were entering the TLM, it was not his meaning as we now know.

A google search will show that Africa’s Catholics are growing rapidly, yet how many of these are actually SSPX?

First Joysong, I didn’t say SSPX, I said TLM.
Look again
netmil(name removed by moderator):

This does beg the question…
If all of these groups are offering a TLM and taking over in Africa and Europe, then why in heaven’s name wouldn’t the Bishops give an Indult and draw the people back to the NO churches?

I go on the words of our two resident African priests. One from Kenya and the other from Nigeria. THEY say traditional is the way to go in Africa.

So unless you have the stats to prove them wrong, I would have to go with their word.

 

[mommyof4]

Some people complain that there is less reverence in the current rite of the mass.

I don’t believe that is true, for a second. The lack of reverence is just a symptom of the age we are in, it is coincidental that the novus ordo came down at the same time.

Look at the general disrespect in our society as a whole, and it would be tough to think that if the n.o. wasn’t promulgated, there wouldn’t be the same problems in the Latin mass. The current day Latin mass isn’t typical as those who attend are a self-selected group that is really concerned with reverence. They aren’t really typical of rank-and-filer Catholics.

I agree.

 

[ComradeAndrei]

I don’t believe that is true, for a second. The lack of reverence is just a symptom of the age we are in, it is coincidental that the novus ordo came down at the same time.

I agree in general, although it doesn’t help that the rubics are loose enough for people to more easily justify their innovations.

Look at the general disrespect in our society as a whole, and it would be tough to think that if the n.o. wasn’t promulgated, there wouldn’t be the same problems in the Latin mass.

I’ve seen pictures and read books from the eve before the Council, and yes, the innovators were willing to do their thing with the Mass according to the Rites of '62. However, it would have been easier to throw the book at them with the tight rubrics of the 62 Mass. Now, introduce tight rubrics to the NO, enforce them, sit back and watch some schism, but also orthodoxy and growth. Amen!

The current day Latin mass isn’t typical as those who attend are a self-selected group that is really concerned with reverence. They aren’t really typical of rank-and-filer Catholics.

That is true and I will vouch for it as I’m a regular (as possible) Latin Mass assister. But, look at it. That should be the Church the world over, TLM or NO. That was the point of the Liturgical Renewal of the kind of Pius X and Pius XII-to encourage those rank-and-filer Catholics to all be crack troops of orthodoxy and reverence.