"Novus Ordo" vs. "Ordinary Form" - What in the world do we call the Mass of Paul VI?

[pnewton]

I find it very ironic that the English Mass is called by the Latin abbreviation NO, while the Latin Mass is called by the English abbreviation TLM.

That is because NO Mass can be used as subliminally denying the validity of the Mass. I think it is no coincidence that this is used as opposed to the more accurate NOM, which has the opposite effect.

 

[pnewton]

Get over it. Novus Ordo is not a slur… Because no matter what words you use it how you use them and you can be just as offensive with any of the terms if that is your goal.

You mean by setting a tone by doing such things as starting a post with the phrase, “Get over it?”

 

[OraLabora]

Get over it. Novus Ordo is not a slur.

Actually some traditionalists do use it in a pejorative manner, and the usage made by the person uttering it is what determines whether it is or not. Meanings of words often get altered.

For example, “gay” can be:

“He’s gay” (said with a hiss) can be pejorative.

“She’s gay” said matter-of-factly can simply be a statement of the homosexuality of the person;

“I’m gay” can be a statement that the person saying it is homosexual.

But today, “gay”, is hardly ever used now to convey its original meaning of being happy, joyful.

Even “black” (when referring to race) can be seen as pejorative by some, which is why it is more politically correct to say “African-American”.

The way in which we say something, can certainly indicate our prejudices even if the words themselves are innocent. Language is a complex dynamic between words and people; some languages, such as Japanese, are very subtle and the way identical words are said alter meaning. The Internet is notoriously poor at conveying meaning due to the lack of ability to see body language, facial expressions, etc. For that reason it’s probably best to stick to neutral terms (as much as they can be) when trying to discuss a subject in an objective and comparative manner.

 

[yablabo]

Greetings to Catholic Answers Forum,

I had recently began a new topic that asked if receiving the Sacred Precious Blood of Jesus Christ was acceptable in the Novus Ordo. It was not my intention to offend nor cause what I feel like a confrontation, and rather than stew about it, I am posting a thread about this question.

I am not sure how the forum serach function works as I am horribly inept at seraches even on the google search engine.

ElToro, I mean no disrepect, but I wished to continue the discussion in another thread.

In that thread a poster, ElToro, said that the Mass of Paul VI was known as “Ordinary Forum”. I have also hear it referred to as Novus Ordo, and have always thus called this form Novus Ordo.

I go reading some more threads and notice that the same poster , El Toro, has in his signature, that the Mass of Paul VI is known as “Ordinary Form” and not novus ordo. I do not know why I am chagrined to see Novus Ordo not capitilized. I realize that this signature is in response to my other thread, and I feel a bit attacked, not overtly, but underhandely. I felt maybe I had violated a major forum rule in referring to the Mass of Paul VI as Novus Ordo. Perhaps I need to go and pray for some humility.

I have noticed that in visting the United States of America most American Catholics call the Mass of Paul VI the Ordinary Form, but I notice that others call it Novus Ordo. I believe most English speakers call the Mass of Paul VI the Ordinary Form, but am not sure on this statistic.

Please provide Church documents in answering this question. Which is the acceptable way to call the Mass of Paul VI? May I still refer to the Mass of Paul VI as Novus Ordo? What I am looking for is not what is a personal perference, though I am interested in how many of you call the Mass of Paul VI the Ordinary From as opposed to the Novus Ordo, Mass, but official Church teaching on what to call the Mass of Paul VI.

I apologize for rambling on in this initial post, but I was a bit disconcerted when I received that response in my other thread and observed the change in the poster’s signature.

God bless.
Anathama Sit

I looked this up in my ecclesiastical Latin dictionary. There the Mass of Pope Paul VI is called the Missa Latina, whereas the Tridentine Mass is called the Missa Tridentina.

Ordinary and Extraordinary Form are distinguishing names for the two orders of the Mass in the Latin Rite…

I do not know where the term Novus Ordo Missae (new order of the mass) came to be the name most attribute to the Mass of Pope Paul VI, but that is not its specific name, rather a description.

– Nicole

 

[oneGODoneCHURCH]

You mean by setting a tone by doing such things as starting a post with the phrase, “Get over it?”

pretty much

 

[oneGODoneCHURCH]

Actually some traditionalists do use it in a pejorative manner, and the usage made by the person uttering it is what determines whether it is or not. Meanings of words often get altered.

For example, “gay” can be:

“He’s gay” (said with a hiss) can be pejorative.

“She’s gay” said matter-of-factly can simply be a statement of the homosexuality of the person;

“I’m gay” can be a statement that the person saying it is homosexual.

But today, “gay”, is hardly ever used now to convey its original meaning of being happy, joyful.

Even “black” (when referring to race) can be seen as pejorative by some, which is why it is more politically correct to say “African-American”.

The way in which we say something, can certainly indicate our prejudices even if the words themselves are innocent. Language is a complex dynamic between words and people; some languages, such as Japanese, are very subtle and the way identical words are said alter meaning. The Internet is notoriously poor at conveying meaning due to the lack of ability to see body language, facial expressions, etc. For that reason it’s probably best to stick to neutral terms (as much as they can be) when trying to discuss a subject in an objective and comparative manner.

See I hate the whole political correct thing. I do not use African American, any more that I use Asian American, European American, Or Irish American, German American Etc…

The number one reason is not all people that would be called African American are descended for African Ancestors. It Was a black person that pointed this out to me. That is why I just man, woman. if asked to describe what a person looks like I then would included skin color, such he was White, or she was black.

As I also said I firmly believe that those offended By N.O. or Novus Ordo are looking to be offended and no were any anything I have ever read can I find were we have the right not to be offended. Yes unlike in oral communication, Written communication does have limits on conveying the intent of the user. but normally the context will give it away. And if you are looking to be offended use will be and if your not looking to be offended you normally won’t be.

 

[YoungTradCath]

I personally find EF derogatory. I know it is used by the Pope. I am speaking of how it makes me feel.

Extraordinary - outside of the ordinary.

The OF has been ordinary for less than 50 years. How long has the Latin mass been around?

And yes I know some will say the EF is not the same as the Tridentine etc, but it’s basically the same.

If there is any connotation of the word “extraordinary,” my personal opinion is that it would be one of grandeur, certainly not a derogatory connotation.

 

[GwenL]

…
Since the Pope made his announcement I have never heard anyone use the label “novus ordo mass” who did not prefer the EF Mass. It’s use is a very subtle jab at the OF Mass. I have even seen people on here use “EF Mass” and still cling to using “novus ordo mass” in the same posting. To me it’s use is largely one of bigotry and in some rare cases simple ignorance.

It’s not all bad though. Its use in real life is a red flag. More often then not it’s a caution that I don’t want to discuss anything with the person using it.

Well, El Toro, meet somebody. I use the term “Novus Ordo” and I much prefer the Novus Ordo Mass, in Latin. I also love the TLM.

Meet somebody else. Vicariously, at least. My rector, a Franciscan Friar (who doesn’t have the time to spend on CAF) celebrates the EF once a month but also prefers the Novus Ordo (in Latin).

I love the Novus Ordo for the richness of the readings, the fact that I can hear AND see what is going on, and the reality that I pray better when I feel in better synch with the actions of the priest. I guess that all makes me bigoted and ignorant…but I’m not really sure how. Since I’ve used the bigoted, ignorant term, I guess you will not want to discuss anything with me.

In the real world, the term that people use for the Novus Ordo is “Mass.” The term that people use for the TLM is “Latin Mass.” Yes, I know that is not accurate. I wager that 99% of the Catholics in the pews, even those fairly well catechized, wouldn’t know what you were talking about when you say “Novus Ordo,” “Ordinary Form,” “Extraordinary Form.”

Now, on CAF, you might have a point. There are people who say “NO Mass” with a sneer. But why worry about them? Anyone who sneers at any Mass has some thinking and praying to do.

 

[Anathama_Sit]

Here is a link to the Document: Motu Proprio - Summorum Pontificum

Peace
James

Greetings JRKH,

My appreciation to you for providing the link.

God bless you.
Anathama Sit

 

[Anathama_Sit]

I looked this up in my ecclesiastical Latin dictionary. There the Mass of Pope Paul VI is called the Missa Latina, whereas the Tridentine Mass is called the Missa Tridentina.

Ordinary and Extraordinary Form are distinguishing names for the two orders of the Mass in the Latin Rite…

I do not know where the term Novus Ordo Missae (new order of the mass) came to be the name most attribute to the Mass of Pope Paul VI, but that is not its specific name, rather a description.

– Nicole

Greetings Nicole,

Thanks for providing that interesting tidbit. I did not know about Missa Latina and Missa Tridentina, oh how I wish I could use these labels.

Greetings to those posting and or reading this thread,

I see that several of you use Novus Ordo in referring to the Mass of Paul VI. I have tried to change my terminology but find that it is quite hard. I talked with one of my professors today about this situation that I happened to have found myself on Catholic Answers Forum. He said how about doing the following, there is nothing wrong with calling it Novus Ordo, but because some may take offense, write it fully out, Novus Ordo Missae and take care that if you abbreviate use “NOM.” I had told my professor that I had said I would start to call it by the OF, but he said that I should not have to change it, he said that either was correct. He assured me that I had meant no insult, and I should continue as before, because he said the our Holy Father did not require us to call the forms of Masses by the names he lists in the Motu Proprio - Summorum Pntificum.

I guess what I am asking for, what are the official names of the forms of Mass rendered in Latin. And I shall refer to the forms of the Masses in their Latin forms.

So in respect to as what has been said in this thread and the advice given to me by my professor, I shall refer to the Mass of Paul VI as Novus Ordo Missae. I believe that this is the most respectful way I can call it, without having to undo or unlearn an ingrained habit. Because I am choosing to call that Mass by its Latin name, what should I call the EF in Latin? I want to preserve some sense of consistency here by calling both Masses by their Latin names.

Thank you for poviding answers to my question

God bless you all.
Anathama Sit

 

[Digitonomy]

Because I am choosing to call that Mass by its Latin name, what should I call the EF in Latin? I want to preserve some sense of consistency here by calling both Masses by their Latin names.

The Latin translation of extraordinary form is forma extraordinaria. If you go with that name, the most comparable name for the new rite is forma ordinaria. The most common name used by the Holy Father in Summorum Pontificum is “Missali Romano a beato Papa Ioanne XXIII anno 1962 edito”.

For more Latin, here is the original Summorum Pontificum. You’ll notice he doesn’t actually name the new or old rites OF or EF as many have claimed, he merely describes them with a variety of phrases. I couldn’t find the accompanying letter in Latin, but here it is in English, with still more descriptive terms.

 

[Anathama_Sit]

The Latin translation of extraordinary form is forma extraordinaria. If you go with that name, the most comparable name for the new rite is forma ordinaria. The most common name used by the Holy Father in Summorum Pontificum is “Missali Romano a beato Papa Ioanne XXIII anno 1962 edito”.

For more Latin, here is the original Summorum Pontificum. You’ll notice he doesn’t actually name the new or old rites OF or EF as many have claimed, he merely describes them with a variety of phrases. I couldn’t find the accompanying letter in Latin, but here it is in English, with still more descriptive terms.

Greetings Digitonomy,

My appreciation in your response as well as the links. I liked the fact that I could compare the English and the Latin version of the Summorum-Pontificum.

God bless you.
Anathama Sit

 

[ElToro]

Greetings ElToro,

I am thankful that we did not meet in real life, because then dialogue between us two would not have been possible. I have to say your initial response to my other post in my other thread caused me to think and post this thread.

I prayed before I went to sleep that you would not take this thread in a bad way, because it was not meant to be done in a bad way, and I am thankful that my prayer was answered.

Thank you for your charity, honesty, and forthcoming in providing your answer.

God bless you.
Anathama Sit

You seem to be one of the very rare exceptions where you were not using “novus ordo” as a known invective. Thank you for your kind comments.

 

[ElToro]

THANK YOU! Bless you!

Several years ago, our esteemed bishop, an orthodox and conservative Catholic who has encouraged the EF Mass in our city for two decades, wrote a column stating this very fact that you have stated and explaining his statements with great clarity and obvious expertise.

I brought this up on CAF and was excoriated, and my bishop was denounced as a “modernist.”

So now I keep my mouth shut, usually.

But I still grit my teeth and hiss whenever I see someone use the incorrect term “Tridentine Mass.” I can’t help it, especially when such a person claims to be a good, traditional Catholic. IMO, a good traditional Catholic should strive to be utterly scrupulous when it comes to adhering to the historical facts.

To the OP–my feeling about the names has to do with the “attitude” that someone holds. If someone uses a derisive tone of voice and a sniff and toss of the head when they refer to one of the two forms of the Latin rite, then I don’t care which “initials” they are using. It’s the attitude that’s wrong. But if someone refers to either form with graciousness and reverence, then again, I don’t care which “initials” they use–it’s their loving attitude that is a blessing to all.

I think it makes sense to use the terms that the Holy Father uses, so that there is unity of speech, which often leads to unity of hearts. We should not seek to be divided into factions, but rather, we should seek to practice our personal Mass preferences, but remain united in our devotion to Christ and His Church.

I also believe that if using a certain term is hurtful to a fellow Catholic that you are in constant contact with, especially if the contact is in person, not just online, I think it is a charitable thing to drop using that certain term, even if it is perfectly correct, and use the less hurtful term instead. It’s just a little thing, and no harm is done by using a term that is not your personal choice.

In the last 5 years I have never heard anyone use “novus ordo” who did not dislike the OF Mass or at least much prefer the EF Mass. Fairly good sample size too. It’s an invective these days.

 

[ElToro]

I looked this up in my ecclesiastical Latin dictionary. There the Mass of Pope Paul VI is called the Missa Latina, whereas the Tridentine Mass is called the Missa Tridentina.

Ordinary and Extraordinary Form are distinguishing names for the two orders of the Mass in the Latin Rite…

I do not know where the term Novus Ordo Missae (new order of the mass) came to be the name most attribute to the Mass of Pope Paul VI, but that is not its specific name, rather a description.

– Nicole

Get a better reference.

 

[ElToro]

I find it very ironic that the English Mass is called by the Latin abbreviation NO, while the Latin Mass is called by the English abbreviation TLM.

Good point. Probably because “NO” is even more of an invective than “novus ordo.”

By the way there is no “tlm.” That’s just a contrived name for the EF Mass.

 

[ElToro]

See I hate the whole political correct thing. I do not use African American, any more that I use Asian American, European American, Or Irish American, German American Etc…

The number one reason is not all people that would be called African American are descended for African Ancestors. It Was a black person that pointed this out to me. That is why I just man, woman. if asked to describe what a person looks like I then would included skin color, such he was White, or she was black.

As I also said I firmly believe that those offended By N.O. or Novus Ordo are looking to be offended and no were any anything I have ever read can I find were we have the right not to be offended. Yes unlike in oral communication, Written communication does have limits on conveying the intent of the user. but normally the context will give it away. And if you are looking to be offended use will be and if your not looking to be offended you normally won’t be.

It’s rarely PC to follow the Pope of Rome these days…

Your comments are offensive. To use “N.O.” to describe any Mass is just plain rude. There really is no way around that truth. To continue to use “novus ordo” when the Pope has coined simple, non-offensive monikers for both Masses simply shows that some people want to offend others.

 

[ElToro]

Greetings Nicole,

Thanks for providing that interesting tidbit. I did not know about Missa Latina and Missa Tridentina, oh how I wish I could use these labels.

Greetings to those posting and or reading this thread,

I see that several of you use Novus Ordo in referring to the Mass of Paul VI. I have tried to change my terminology but find that it is quite hard. I talked with one of my professors today about this situation that I happened to have found myself on Catholic Answers Forum. He said how about doing the following, there is nothing wrong with calling it Novus Ordo, but because some may take offense, write it fully out, Novus Ordo Missae and take care that if you abbreviate use “NOM.” I had told my professor that I had said I would start to call it by the OF, but he said that I should not have to change it, he said that either was correct. He assured me that I had meant no insult, and I should continue as before, because he said the our Holy Father did not require us to call the forms of Masses by the names he lists in the Motu Proprio - Summorum Pntificum.

I guess what I am asking for, what are the official names of the forms of Mass rendered in Latin. And I shall refer to the forms of the Masses in their Latin forms.

So in respect to as what has been said in this thread and the advice given to me by my professor, I shall refer to the Mass of Paul VI as Novus Ordo Missae. I believe that this is the most respectful way I can call it, without having to undo or unlearn an ingrained habit. Because I am choosing to call that Mass by its Latin name, what should I call the EF in Latin? I want to preserve some sense of consistency here by calling both Masses by their Latin names.

Thank you for poviding answers to my question

God bless you all.
Anathama Sit

If you are serious about that, the official name of the Ordinary Form of the Mass is the Mass of Pope Paul VI. It has never been the “novus ordo” Mass.

“Novus ordo” was an adjective (and not a name) used in the context of the (then) newly released Mass.

In the end though there will always be people that wish to offend and no matter what they will stick with the “novus ordo” invective.

 

[Contra_Mundum_1]

I agree with the poster who pointed out that in real life people refer to NO/OF as ‘the mass’, and to TLM/EF as ‘Latin mass’. I actually do the same, it is easier and it doesn’t confuse people who are not familiar and/or not interested in this.

My parish priest who is FSSP calls the EF ‘the old rite’. Obviously, that is the translation of the Usus Antiquior. I don’t know what the status of that term is at the moment, but a number of traditionally minded bloggers that I follow use that term. Any thoughts?

 

[YoungTradCath]

El Toro, I think you are getting a little too offended a little too easily. I’m sure no one really is out to get you, or rain on your parade of mass preferences.