Now over 3,000 Covid deaths per day

[Pattylt]

We started in a mobile home. When the housing crashed in Wyoming, we moved our mobile home to Colorado and two years later, sold it for what we had invested…we had paid off the mobile home loan before we had left so no more loan on it. We used that sale money for our down payment on our first real house.

My daughter and her husband were in the bind you are in. Couldn’t manage to save enough to get into a really tight housing market so we bought the house using our savings and rented it to her for the mortgage payment plus $50 for the taxes/insurance. The idea was they would eventually buy it from us. Then she wound up divorced when she faced up to her husbands abuse…thank heavens that loan wasn’t in their names! That’s how the house became a rental as she and the kids moved in with us to save up for her future place. She’s hoping to afford a condo soon.

Sometimes, you have to get creative and sometimes you just have to suffer through your misfortune. It wasn’t fun living in a mobile home for over 12 years but it allowed us to eventually get into a house! I proudly wore the title of Trailer Trash!

I do know that there are programs to help with the down payment on a house…my son recently used it to get into his first home (must be your first home). Check into help that may be available.

I agree about buying and then fixing up your house to make it more marketable down the road…especially if you can do the work yourself. Our first real home was 3bdr 2bath with unfinished basement. It sold as a 5bdr 3bath because we spent eight years finishing the basement with two large bedrooms, full bath and large media room and an open office area. We looked at what the trends were and often did improvements $100 at a time. We had a bidding war between three people when we sold it…and rolled every cent of that sale into our next larger fixer upper…where we are now.

But, I know it’s frustrating. Housing is tight in many markets and new construction is all upper dollar homes…not starters…not enough money to be made in starter homes! That’s sad and wrong in my view. I think states would be wise to invest in more starter homes for first time buyers. Also, many kids need to realize their first home isn’t going to look like the pages in Better Homes and Garden! It’s going to be kind of ugly.

 

[Jeanne_S]

My husband and I purchased our first home 47 years ago.We paid 37K It was a full brick ranch ,1700 sq ft. with a full walkout basement on a lot with a huge backyard.We bought it using a VA loan that required no down payment.2 .5 years later we purchased our second home for 88K It was 2800 sq.ft. We lived their till our three daughters were out of school,moved to the home we are in now for nearly 20years. Both those homes are worth 6 times or more of what we paid for them.

 

[qui_est_ce]

Thank you! Yes, I can see the problem! What if the tax was only applied to non food products…or would that make it unworkable? Would it be possible to make the tax progressive…as in items under a certain value are low and rising with the prices of the items? Things costing a thousand dollars have a higher rate kind of thing? Since the wealthy tend to buy large dollar items I can see them having to pay out more overall…

I also agree that investment gains need to be taxed otherwise it’s just free money that’s out of reach for average citizens. I’ve always felt that taxes need to be progressive to be more fair…what ever kind of taxes are being talked about.
Thanks for explaining!

Patty,
Rich people buy yachts and expensive cars. They have to pay sales tax on that. All people currently pay sales taxes.

As regarding investment gains being taxed - they already are. I recently had to sell our family business building to pay for my mother’s end of life care. It was taxed at a flat rate of 25% - had to pay $50,000.00 in taxes on a $200,000.00 sale. It was taxed as investment property, even though it was from a family business.

 

[qui_est_ce]

When I lived in Wyoming, it used to not have tax on food…then, it changed…sigh… they still have no state tax. It shocked us a bit though we knew it would happen, when we moved to Colorado.

That’s because the more services the government provides, the more money it needs. And the government is not efficient in providing services. Your local DMV is a prime example.

My bigger shock came when I retired and started collecting SS and it’s taxed…that really hurts!

Not fun being taxed is it?

 

[Pattylt]

Not fun being taxed is it?

Of course not but I don’t hate taxes. I consider it the price of living in a civil society with many benefits I could never do on my own…like offer fire and police protection, build roads, maintain the parks I love so much! What I do object to, it the unequal distribution of amounts paid. Including businesses. While I understand that Bezos paid no taxes on Amazon for years, it was due to his reinvestment into purchasing more warehouses and expanding the lines carried…but zero tax paid? Then we get into personal lives where they live off investments doing nothing to contribute to jobs or growth yet pay a pittance compared to me!

I remember capital gains tax being exceptionally high but it was progressive. I’m not sure if it still is but when making millions, why shouldn’t it continue to be progressive at the upper reaches…how much does any one person really need to live wealthy?

Then, the abuses in taxes by some of the Uber wealthy! Some don’t even file and would owe millions if they did, yet we don’t have enough IRS agents to even go after them? There’s just so many little and big things wrong with the current system and way too many loopholes!

 

[qui_est_ce]

Of course not but I don’t hate taxes. I consider it the price of living in a civil society with many benefits I could never do on my own…like offer fire and police protection, build roads, maintain the parks I love so much! What I do object to, it the unequal distribution of amounts paid. Including businesses. While I understand that Bezos paid no taxes on Amazon for years, it was due to his reinvestment into purchasing more warehouses and expanding the lines carried…but zero tax paid? Then we get into personal lives where they live off investments doing nothing to contribute to jobs or growth yet pay a pittance compared to me!

Many low income Americans pay no income taxes either.

I remember capital gains tax being exceptionally high but it was progressive. I’m not sure if it still is but when making millions, why shouldn’t it continue to be progressive at the upper reaches…how much does any one person really need to live wealthy?

It is flat rate.

Then, the abuses in taxes by some of the Uber wealthy! Some don’t even file and would owe millions if they did, yet we don’t have enough IRS agents to even go after them? There’s just so many little and big things wrong with the current system and way too many loopholes!

There is no abuse by the wealthy. They take legitimate tax deductions.

Many people think that the rich are able to weasel their way out of taxes, but they actually pay an overwhelming majority of the taxes in the United States.​

What’s more, their share of the tax burden is increasing.

The top 10 percent of taxpayers paid over 70% of the total amount collected in federal income taxes in 2010, the latest year figures are available, according to the Tax Foundation, a think tank that advocates for lower taxes. That’s up from 55% in 1986.

The remaining 90% bore just under 30% of the tax burden. And 47% of all Americans pay hardly anything at all – a fact that got Republican presidential candidate Mitt Romney into political hot water last year.

Do you deduct your mortgage interest? Do you deduct your real estate taxes? Those are tax loopholes. The alternative minimum tax is a check that limits many tax loopholes. Why should people who have enough money to buy a home get a tax break?

When people say Trump only paid $750.00 in income taxes, they don’t know what they are talking about. Our tax system is a pay as you go. If you’ve been paying taxes all year long and you get a refund, you didn’t not pay taxes. You just overpaid. Are you willing to pay more than the bottom line on your 1040? I’m not. The government has it’s place, but it’s not efficient.

I personally think everybody should pay something in taxes, even if it’s just $1.00. Many people think government handouts are “free.” This would remind people that it’s not.

 

[sallybutler]

Maybe he had no “income”. There are lots of ways the uber rich get around identifying things as income. Some legal, some that end you up with audits.

Also, there are lines for taxes owed, taxes already paid, net owed/refunded. Taxes owed is the gross, not the net.

 

[Pattylt]

Many low income Americans pay no income taxes either.

Nor do I think they should. Ok, a dollar would be fine with me but someone that can barely put food on the table? I’m fine with paying a little more so they don’t have to starve.

It is flat rate.

Perhaps it needs to be progressive when they make over a million in a year?

There is no abuse by the wealthy. They take legitimate tax deductions.

I’m not saying they are doing anything illegal. Of course I take every deduction I’m entitled to. I think the whole system though is skewed towards the wealthy paying, percentage wise, less than the middle class. As I pointed out, I’m a bit economically illiterate. I’m just trying to understand how some billionaires pay so little (percentage wise).

Do you deduct your mortgage interest? Do you deduct your real estate taxes? Those are tax loopholes.

I actually think some loopholes are necessary and good, especially those that incentivize the wealthy to direct their money at job creation or other societal benefits. I no longer get to write off any of my mortgage interest as I’m in the final years of paying off my home and the new tax structure has my standard deduction being a better deal. The reason the write off is there is to encourage home ownership. That’s one of the loopholes that is a good one…so, my problem isn’t with loopholes in general, it’s just some of them!

Do you think the system is fair if a middle class person is paying 22% when a millionaire is paying 7%? This isn’t every millionaire, but there are plenty of examples.

The top 10 percent of taxpayers paid over 70% of the total amount collected in federal income taxes in 2010, the latest year figures are available, according to the Tax Foundation, a think tank that advocates for lower taxes. That’s up from 55% in 1986.

I do think this is better than expecting the low income people to carry the burden! The wealthy also get the benefit of living in a country where they operate their business, have a legal system that protects their interests, have access to an educated workforce, have all the police and fire protection, good roads and opportunities to continue getting very rich and living the lifestyle they enjoy. I’d also agree that we shouldn’t overburden them to the point that they’d leave. There does need to be some balance…I’m just not sure we have it! :hugs:

 

[billsherman]

I suppose a lot of people think it’s a good thing that the wealthy are so privileged in America.

We truly do believe that they are better than the rest of us, and they truly are the ones in need of protecting.

Meanwhile (and I’m certain it has only gotten more lopsided since):

Buffett says he's still paying lower tax rate than his secretary

 

[phe]

It’s very unfortunate. I believe the reason the numbers continue to increase is the number of people who truly aren’t following covid protocol. When I visit the capital of my state, I notice that everyone is wearing masks as they should. But it’s when I travel back to the suburban and rural parts of the state that I notice the number of people who aren’t wearing masks. Or the people that continue to have unsafe gatherings.

I dearly hope we can straighten America out this coming year.

 

[vz71]

When I visit the capital of my state, I notice that everyone is wearing masks as they should. But it’s when I travel back to the suburban and rural parts of the state that I notice the number of people who aren’t wearing masks.

But the large increase in number, at least in the states closest me, are in the large cities.

Smaller rural areas, while they have seen higher numbers, are nowhere near the metropolitan areas.

Seems to me something else is going on.

 

[sallybutler]

Perhaps the more people you are in contact with, the greater your chance of getting it.

 

[vz71]

Perhaps the more people you are in contact with, the greater your chance of getting it.

Agreed.
But that also appears to imply the standard precautions of mask and social distancing are ineffective.

 

[sallybutler]

All you need is one person violating those precautions. So yes they can be ineffective because of the people who refuse to follow the guidelines. And those infected droplets can travel up to 10 feet if you have someone yelling or talking really loud.

 

[vz71]

All you need is one person violating those precautions.

No.
You need more than that.
Otherwise the statistics would not show increase where the standard precautions are followed.

 

[sallybutler]

Viral load is also a factor. How long were you in the presence of people who were carriers? How much interaction did you have with them? Were you yourself in a healthy enough state to fight it off?

Also, are these people being honest about how completely they are following the guidelines? It’s sort of like pregnancy, it only takes one time if it is the right time.

 

[LeafByNiggle]

Agreed.
But that also appears to imply the standard precautions of mask and social distancing are ineffective.

False implication. To prove those precautions are ineffective you would have to compare performance with precautions against performance without precautions. Nothing cited here has done that.

 

[vz71]

Viral load is also a factor. How long were you in the presence of people who were carriers?

We are told that social distancing and masks mitigate that factor. I have my doubts.

How much interaction did you have with them? Were you yourself in a healthy enough state to fight it off?

Again, the information we have been provided tells us that social distancing and masks mitigate this.

Also, are these people being honest about how completely they are following the guidelines?

I don’t see why not.
They have no reason to lie.
But it does point out an interesting fact.
The vast majority that get the virus report following proper social distancing and mask usage when they got it.

It’s sort of like pregnancy, it only takes one time if it is the right time.

The standard precautions we have been given are starting to sound more and more like the myth of ‘safe sex’.
Sure they give someone something to do.
But are largely ineffective against the perils the behavior will subject them to.

 

[vz71]

To prove those precautions are ineffective you would have to compare performance with precautions against performance without precautions.

No one said there was proof.
I simply stated the implication is there.

And we still have the facts that most infected claim to have been following the guidelines.

At the very least, we can say that their precautions were ineffective

 

[LeafByNiggle]

LeafByNiggle:

To prove those precautions are ineffective you would have to compare performance with precautions against performance without precautions.

No one said there was proof.
I simply stated the implication is there.

An “implication” without a proof is just a hunch.

And we still have the facts that most infected claim to have been following the guidelines.

At the very least, we can say that their precautions were ineffective

That is still not saying much. That would be like saying that the precaution of not smoking cigarettes was not effective for those people who got lung cancer without ever smoking. Yes, it is true. It didn’t save them from cancer. But that observation has absolutely no bearing on the question of whether my teenage son should start smoking. Similarly, the fact that some people got covid even while wearing masks has absolutely no bearing on the question of whether I should wear a mask when I go to mass (aside from the fact that they would not let me in if I wasn’t).