Nra calls for armed police officer in every school

[Brendan]

Brendan, to be fair, it’s more than the gun that would save you from a real would-be killer. It’s the ability to outdraw or outmaneuver him as well. If you can’t outdraw him, then all you’ve done is to provoke him into combat with both of you at risk. From the examples shown so far about lives being saved, I have to wonder whether the gunman had genuine intentions of killing or not…

The example can include everything from showing the gun to actually using it.

A great example is the case of the two teens who killed two college professors in Dartmouth, VT in 2001. The people they killed were not actually their first target.

At the first house they tried to attack, they cut the phone lines of the house and then when to the door. The owner of the house met them at the door while having a pistol visable in his waistband. The two teens stammers some excuses and left. Their next target was the home of the two professors. When the profs answered the door, the teens talked their way inside, drew knives and bound and gagged the profs. They then killed them and raided the house.

A criminal generally has an interest in living, at least long enought to accomplish their goal. If a significant threat exists, they almost always make the decision to disengage the attack, or are held at bay long enough to police to arrive and make an arrest.

Incidentally, Nate Silver’s book is to be recommended. Best book I’ve read since “How to Lie with Statistics” by Howard Ruff.

The interesting thing is that these statistics come from the Clinton Administration. Most people do not consider that Adminsitraion to be ‘gun friendly’.

So what motive would you attribute to the Clintion administration to lie or misrepresent statistics in a way that would be counter productive to their publically announced goals?

 

[Brendan]

Simple. “Tax” all the weapons and ammunitions. Let the NRA put its money where its mouth is.

Well, that ‘tax’ could fund a rural or even a suburban community where people actually buy guns and ammuntition.

But that would leave major cities like Chicago and New York in a world of hurt. Since Chicago has little in the way of gun or ammo sales, how would a city like Chicago raise the tax revenue you are talking about.

Also, since most regular shooter reload their own ammo, how would tax revenue be gathered?

 

[Scott_Lafrance]

What Wayne Pierre is say is this, you liberals want to take the right and ability of everyone to defend themselves away. SInce criminals, by their nature, are apt to disobey gun control laws, they only way that we can make sure that everyone is safe is to put armed police on patrol everywhere.

You want safety, you will by default need to give up your liberty. Once that liberty is gone it is never coming back.

 

[mary_bobo]

Simple. “Tax” all the weapons and ammunitions. Let the NRA put its money where its mouth is.

Is this to be at the point of sale or do those who steal guns have to pay a tax also. And how are you going to determine where the guns are so that they can be taxed? Let’s all come up with some constructive solutions instead of those we wish were but are not possible.

 

[JonNC]

What Wayne Pierre is say is this, you liberals want to take the right and ability of everyone to defend themselves away. SInce criminals, by their nature, are apt to disobey gun control laws, they only way that we can make sure that everyone is safe is to put armed police on patrol everywhere.

You want safety, you will by default need to give up your liberty. Once that liberty is gone it is never coming back.

• “Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.” * - Ben Franklin

The individual right to arms is not only an essential liberty, but essential** to **liberty.
Jon

 

[Jennifer_Gritt]

While I understand the initial reaction to the shootings causes people to focus on guns and gun control, for me this a bigger issue of how the younger generations are being taught to think and behave. Should the dialogue be less about armed personnel in schools and what is actually being taught–or not taught–in schools?

As a Catholic, I can view the tragedies in the larger context of why the human condition must contend with murder, theft, disaster, tragedy–but when you are dealing with a generation of young people who seem to have no concept of right or wrong, or that there are consequences for actions, this has a tendency to make me take a step back and question how society is shaping its youth.

For anyone who might be interested, I wrote about this at length in a post “When Humans Behave Badly.” pursuit.jennifergritt.com/2012/12/17/when-humans-behave-badly.aspx

 

[JonNC]

While I understand the initial reaction to the shootings causes people to focus on guns and gun control, for me this a bigger issue of how the younger generations are being taught to think and behave. Should the dialogue be less about armed personnel in schools and what is actually being taught–or not taught–in schools?

As a Catholic, I can view the tragedies in the larger context of why the human condition must contend with murder, theft, disaster, tragedy–but when you are dealing with a generation of young people who seem to have no concept of right or wrong, or that there are consequences for actions, this has a tendency to make me take a step back and question how society is shaping its youth.

For anyone who might be interested, I wrote about this at length in a post “When Humans Behave Badly.” pursuit.jennifergritt.com/2012/12/17/when-humans-behave-badly.aspx

The bumper sticker/ t-shirt quote:
"Dear God, why do you allow such terrible things to happen in schools?
Signed, Concerned Parent

Dear Concerned Parent,
I’m not allowed in schools.
Signed, God.

Its trite, but the real underlying message it true. If there is no higher authority for moral behavior, then anything goes under the heading of, “Don’t judge me”, or “Who are you to force your morals on me?” Schools, and more and more our society as a whole, have no foundation for moral and ethical behavior, because the source of the moral and ethical behavior our country was built on is being removed from public life.

All that said, however, it is an even bigger issue how we treat and handle those in our society who, by illness or affliction, are incapable of understanding or acting on human compassion for others. These souls should be the target of our compassionate efforts.

Jon

 

[_Abyssinia]

Brendan, to be fair, it’s more than the gun that would save you from a real would-be killer. It’s the ability to outdraw or outmaneuver him as well. If you can’t outdraw him, then all you’ve done is to provoke him into combat with both of you at risk. From the examples shown so far about lives being saved, I have to wonder whether the gunman had genuine intentions of killing or not. OTOH, those on the “defensive” can be quickly goaded into being aggressors with actual intent to kill. But then I haven’t investigated every single on of these 1.5 million defensive uses. We still have over 500,000,000 guns so it seems 1,500,000 is a reasonable number to “prove” whatever you wish.

Incidentally, Nate Silver’s book is to be recommended. Best book I’ve read since “How to Lie with Statistics” by Howard Ruff.

Do you know that Nate Silver was fed a lot of internal polls from the Obama campaign in 2008? But to my knowledge he has never admitted he has even though he has been exposed. Silver’s early predictions for the 2010 middterms were awful. Another source. Days before the 2010 middterms he blogged on Rasmussen Reports saying they were biased, even though Ramussen Reports was accurate in 2004 and 2008

Turns out Rasmussen’s polling for the 2010 middterms and predictions on how many House seats republicans would win were more accurate than Silver’s predictions. Rasmussen predicted republicans would pick up 62 seats, Nate Silver ran the headline, House Forecast: G.O.P. Plus 54-55 Seats; Significantly Larger or Smaller Gains Possible. Republicans picked up 63. Sillver turned around on republicans winning more seats than democrats when it was obvious to nearly everybody that they were. Silver did not have any early insight into republicans winning large and in the 5 closest races for the senate in the midterms, Alaska, Nevada and Colarado his predictions were wrong

As for his accuracy in the 2012 election, I would not be shocked if he got fed internal polls again from the Obama campaign given Silver’s previous presidential polling feed. Silver has admitted to voting for Obama

Nate Silver’s predictions for the British elections were way off. Liberal democrats had 101 seats. Silver predicted they would win 39. They lost 5. Nate Silver said Labour would have a total of 214 seats. There total was 258

 

[Stylteralmaldo]

I voted no. I admit that my initial reaction was to say yes. However, the solution is not to advocate more government intervention (how can you stop at schools…then you’d have to move on to sending an armed police officer to movie houses, places of worship, etc. where there have also been mass shootings).

I don’t like the idea.

 

[JonNC]

I voted no. I admit that my initial reaction was to say yes. However, the solution is not to advocate more government intervention (how can you stop at schools…then you’d have to move on to sending an armed police officer to movie houses, places of worship, etc. where there have also been mass shootings).

I don’t like the idea.

Well, the difference is that public schools are a government enterprise. The others are private.

Jon

 

[meltzerboy]

Well, the difference is that public schools are a government enterprise. The others are private.

Jon

What happens then in the private schools: secular, Catholic, yeshivas? They would probably have to hire armed guards too, because otherwise they might become the next soft targets. Eventually, we’ll have armed guards in other private institutions as well. Is that the kind of society we want to live in? According to some people, maybe it is.

 

[PoorKnight]

Practical solutions? Of what use is one guard? In the two minutes it takes him to run from one wing of the typical school to the next, a whole classroom could go the way of Newtown’s kids. Or are we expecting attackers to oblige by always walking up to the front door as opposed to coming from within the student body? Some solution.

I would have to disagree with your assumptions here. I am a cop; I teach Police Response to In-Progress Violence and School(or Office, or Hospital or Mall) Preparation for In Progress Violence.

1st, the reason we call it “In Progress Violence” and no longer “Active Shooter” is because statistics show that Guns are not always used. Looking at world wide incidents (but all of these have happened in the US as well), Knives, Swords, Grenades, Bombs, and Fire have been used as well for mass murder situations.

In a recent article in my local paper, they detailed that over 10% (I want to say around 15%) of mass murder situations are committed by Fire. In the US we have had situations stopped where the person wanted to go through a mall throwing bombs or grenades. China has had at least 3 mass knifings, Japan has had at least 2. Whole School Districts in the Middle East have been shut down because of Sword attacks on children, where they then stack all the heads of the children in the lobby…

Now on to your comment directly: In my research, I have learned that Terrorist organizations have aborted attacks on targets because of ONE armed guard. Per ret. Lt. Col. Dave Grossman the military is trained in tactics where ONE soldier can pin down a squad or more for 5 mins or more given effective fire. In Many jurisdictions, 5 mins is long enough for back-up to arrive.

In my classes I teach Solo-Entry of Police Officers. That is, the first Officer on scene enters IMMEDIATELY. Except for a very few situations, the only times these aggressors are stopped by cops, is when the first Officer enters ALONE. These guys are COWARDS and only very rarely does one actually engage armed resistance. The vast majority commit suicide when confronted with armed resistance.

An Armed Guard would be on scene already, cutting down on crucial response time: it takes up to 10 - 15 seconds for a 911 call to connect. It then takes several minutes for the information to be passed from an EXTREMELY stressed individual - who may not be able to hear the call taker because of psycho / phsyiological changes that happen under extreme stress - it then takes several minutes for that information to be passed on to the dispatcher and reviewed, it then takes up to 30 seconds to dispatch the actual information to the officers. By the time we get the information and start driving we’re already 5+ minutes behind and in some parts of my patrol areas, I could be 20 minutes away even when driving 120 mph (yes we drive that fast sometimes).

If a Guard cannot beat 5 mins from one side of the school to the other (which SHOULD be discovered in regular drills and tests) they should be fired for being unable to perform the job.

The idea of Armed Guards in NOT a “Golden Bullet” but instead is a MAJOR piece in the “overlapping, redundant, multi-layered safety systems” that we need to stop violence in our Schools.

Again, take fire safety: Fire Safety in our Schools has “Overlapping, redundant, multi-layered systems” to protect schools from fire. One MAJOR piece to that is sprinkler systems. Sprinkler systems are there if the other systems fail and a fire breaks out.

Same with School Violence (which is statistically MUCH more likely to hurt or kill our children in schools than school fire: NO kids killed or Injured in a school fire in 50+ years vs Dozens killed and HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS INJURED EACH YEAR in School Violence).

An Armed Guard is just a piece of the puzzle. TWO, Rifle armed, TRAINED guards is a BIGGER piece to that puzzle. (note two would be “overlapping”, “redundant”, and “multi-layered” in and of themselves when taught team tactics).

Solid Doors instead of glass - I have seen, now, multiple situations where locked doors were by-passed because they were glass… going away from glass doors is an Elementary step (pun intended).

Classroom doors that stay shut and locked during class.

REGULAR drills: at LEAST as often as Fire Drills and a standard of < 1 min until all doors are closed / locked and all persons are out of sight.

These are just SOME of the pieces we could do on the School side.

Also, Yes, you’d be amazed how many killers came in the front doors…

But the biggest resistance to all of this is: THE SCHOOLS. They don’t want it. In my mind that makes them somewhat culpible with any injury or death that occurs in that school.

Everyone As I was typing this I just learned that at least 10 of the students killed in Newport were Catholic. All of those 10 belonged to a small parish: St. Rose of Lima. The priest there is new (ordained only 2 years) and because the diocees is without a bishop currently, he does not have much help and is already competely exaspirated. If that wasn’t enough, the church has been recieving some sort of threats where police came in during mass and told everyone they had to leave.

I’ve also been told that the diocees is a “poorly catechised” diocees and there are fears of people loosing their faith.

The point was that this parish, the priest and the people all need our Prayers and Sacrifices. Please pray, fast and sacrifice for St. Rose of Lima parish and parishoners!

God Bless them
God Help us!

 

[ProVobis]

Well, that ‘tax’ could fund a rural or even a suburban community where people actually buy guns and ammuntition.

But that would leave major cities like Chicago and New York in a world of hurt. Since Chicago has little in the way of gun or ammo sales, how would a city like Chicago raise the tax revenue you are talking about.

Also, since most regular shooter reload their own ammo, how would tax revenue be gathered?

Forget the tax. Where does the NRA collect its revenues? AFAIK, the National Rifle Association is national.

 

[JonNC]

What happens then in the private schools: secular, Catholic, yeshivas? They would probably have to hire armed guards too, because otherwise they might become the next soft targets. Eventually, we’ll have armed guards in other private institutions as well. Is that the kind of society we want to live in? According to some people, maybe it is.

Certainly, it isn’t the kind of society any of us want, but the fact is that at least here in NC a school resource officer is required at all public middle and high schools already. And we have security at court houses and the like.
But further gun control won’t have an impact on that. That has to do with the continuing undermining of the judeo-christian foundations of our society, and the mistaken policies regarding those who sadly have mental afflictions that interfere with their thinking processes.

I am a public elementary school teacher, so I have a very personal connection with the events at Sandy Hook. I, like, them, am willing to defend to the death my kids, but I’d prefer to be able to defend them and live. I may not like the idea of SRO’s in every school, or teachers having the right to conceal carry at school, but I certainly don’t care for the alternative, that being, where schools are gun-free zones only for the good guys.

Jon

 

[ProVobis]

The interesting thing is that these statistics come from the Clinton Administration. Most people do not consider that Adminsitraion to be ‘gun friendly’.

So maybe the actual number was 10 million instead of 1.5 million as they reported, I don’t know. Depends on who’s doing the counting. Maybe theft was the motivating factor, not the intent to kill, but one might count it as saving 100 lives if the banker has a gun behind the counter, another one not. As many murders as we have, it seems like armed robberies are more common but I could be wrong.

 

[triumphguy]

We have an armed police officer in our school, and in every high school.

Most of the time he gives tickets for smoking, speeding through the school zone, some of the time he deals with drug and alcohol issues, or assaults … but there’s always that one time when he’ll need his Glock and his shotgun…

He’s also a good guy and the kids respond well to him.

 

[ProVobis]

You want safety, you will by default need to give up your liberty. Once that liberty is gone it is never coming back.

You’re right and the TSA is a good example of that. As well as ball parks, courthouses, etc. Problem seems to be no trust among us, guns or no guns.

 

[ProVobis]

Is this to be at the point of sale or do those who steal guns have to pay a tax also. And how are you going to determine where the guns are so that they can be taxed? Let’s all come up with some constructive solutions instead of those we wish were but are not possible.

Okay but surely an organization which managed to sell directly or indirectly 300,000,000 guns, half of the guns in the world, must know of some ways to raise money.

 

[gamewell45]

WASHINGTON (AP) — The nation’s largest gun-rights lobby is calling for armed police officers to be posted in every American school to stop the next killer “waiting in the wings.”

The National Rifle Association broke its silence Friday on last week’s shooting rampage at a Connecticut elementary school that left 26 children and staff dead.

The group’s top lobbyist, Wayne LaPierre, said at a Washington news conference that, quote, “The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun.”

bigstory.ap.org/article/nra-returns-public-debate-meet-media

My initial thought is, where is the money supposed to come from to pay for this? Will the federal government pay for this or will the responsibility be left to the states?

 

[oldcatholicguy]

My initial thought is, where is the money supposed to come from to pay for this? Will the federal government pay for this or will the responsibility be left to the states?

The same place the money is going to come from to pay for the “fixes” Biden comes up with.