Obama Admin knew millions could not keep their health ins.

[Peter_Plato]

If you think that, then you need to research the issue MUCH more in depth. Canada’s system is a dumpster fire, and only sustained by the fact that they live next door to the best medical system, and their citizens can cross the border for medical care.

This is a severe distortion of the facts. There are some issues, but nothing compared to what does work. As to the cost, I’ve provided information on the amount paid by a typical Canadian through taxes in a similar thread:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=11290696&postcount=36

The cost is about $6700 per year for a family making $100 000. This is for basic health care for services in Canada and no deductibles for that care. This does not include dental or optical. Extended coverage including things like private bed, dental and vision care, medicines not covered under basic, and life insurance can be obtained for about $400 (family) per month through private insurers.

Here is a list if what is covered under the provincial program:

Examinations
Medically required surgery
Standard Ward Hospitalization
Medically necessary use of a semi-private or private room
Private nursing care, ordered by the attending physician and meeting the hospital’s by-laws
Pacemakers, steel plates, pins, joint prostheses, valve implants and any goods approved by the Minister (unless they are enhanced goods and services)
Accommodation and meals at the standard or public ward level
Necessary nursing services
Laboratory, radiological and other diagnostic procedures (including interpretation) to maintain health, prevent disease and help diagnose/treat any injury, illness or disability
Drugs, biologicals and related preparations administered in a hospital (as specified in the Hospitalization Benefits Regulation)
Use of operating room, case room and anaesthetic facilities, plus the necessary equipment and supplies • Routine surgical supplies
Use of radiotherapy facilities
Use of physical therapy facilities
Services supplied by persons being paid by the hospital
Hospitalization Benefits (In-patients)
Transporting a patient in Alberta by ambulance or other commercial vehicle from one facility to another
Goods and services included in an approved hospital or specific program (unless they are enhanced goods and services)
Hospitalization Benefits (Outpatients)
Medically necessary goods and services provided to an outpatient, including goods used in a medical procedure but excluding goods given to a patient to use after discharge.
Oral and Maxillofacial Surgery Services
Diagnostic interview and evaluation or consultation
Insured oral surgery
This information is not intended to cover all instances. If you are unsure whether a medical service is insured, please contact our office.

Source: health.alberta.ca/AHCIP/what-is-covered.html

The reason some Canadians have chosen to go to the US for some treatments is because of a shortage of doctors and longish wait times. In large measure these people have chosen that route because the economy in the States has reduced prices there because many Americans could not afford them. To drum up business, private health service providers in the US have tried to lure customers from Canada to add to their income.

This is not a reflection of the difference in care between Canada and the States, because care in Canada for everything except high cost elective or unusual intervention techniques is at least en par with the States.

True that governments have tried to reduce or stabilize costs of health care and have made cost issues news, but that is because economies of most countries have been struggling of late and conservative parties have gained power provincially and federally. Conservative in Canada means “less government” involvement, so these parties have been loathe to spend money on government programs and have tried to cutback, so it has been a political issue. Actually, HAD been, because those same governments have come to realize of late that Canadians will not compromise when it comes to health care so they are no longer “sounding alarms” but rather quietly funding the programs.

The dismal picture you paint of the Canadian system is distorted. The large majority are well satisfied with the system, although wait time can be an issue for some. The more vocal are often the wealthy who want things done TODAY and will pay the cost themselves to go to the States. Having money or status does not typically, allow the wealthy to “jump the cues” for care. When someone tries, because of their position or contacts, to do so, it is a big public issue. The general understanding is everyone is treated equally, no special favors for the wealthy or elite. Some may not like that and they are the voices that often decry the system.

The impression of the Canadian health care system that you leave with readers of this thread is not remotely true. The costs are reasonable, coverage is good and the system generally functions well. Where it doesn’t, monitoring and strategies are in place to improve it.

 

[ProVobis]

B) Even if your COBRA quote mattered, the best this couple can get now is more than 2x what you just quoted.

You have to compare apples and apples here. An insurance policy that limits coverage in any way (and possibly fraudulent) can’t be compared to one that covers unlimited treatment for all pre-existing conditions. The agency I worked for decided to discontinue medical insurance back in 2003 as it just couldn’t deal with insurance policies that we really couldn’t call medical insurance at all. Plain and simple, there was no standardization in medical insurance plans, unlike life or car insurance, for example.

Don’t get me wrong, I have a lot of problems with the ACA but unless you examine each and every one of these discontinued policies, I don’t think you can claim everything good has been broken.

 

[SaintAugustine]

You have to compare apples and apples here. An insurance policy that limits coverage in any way (and possibly fraudulent) can’t be compared to one that covers unlimited treatment for all pre-existing conditions. The agency I worked for decided to discontinue medical insurance back in 2003 as it just couldn’t deal with insurance policies that we really couldn’t call medical insurance at all. Plain and simple, there was no standardization in medical insurance plans, unlike life or car insurance, for example.

Don’t get me wrong, I have a lot of problems with the ACA but unless you examine each and every one of these discontinued policies, I don’t think you can claim everything good has been broken.

If you feel that way, then why did you have doubt about the couples’ premium and compare it to your COBRA premium? Is that apples and apples? Nope. You don’t even know what their coverage included.

You may want to take your own advice.

 

[Peter_Plato]

boiseweekly.com/boise/canadian-health-care-has-a-dirty-secret/Content?oid=1511496

From the article:

“That’s why the premier of one of the Canadian provinces came here just last week to have his heart operated on,” Barrasso told Obama. “He said, ‘It’s my heart, it’s my life, I want to go where it’s the best.’ And he came to the United States.”

Williams, a 60-year-old populist who has been running Newfoundland since 2003, did indeed put it that way.

“This was my heart, my choice and my health,” he told the Canadian Press from his condominium in Sarasota, Fla., where he was recovering from surgery. "I did not sign away my right to get the best possible health care for myself when I entered politics

Certainly, one of the wealthy elite (and a politician) for whom democracy and equality lose meaning completely when his own life is at stake. Equal treatment (as in justice) is only for those who CAN’T afford it, apparently. Unfortunately, this is the breed of politicians running democracies these days.

This is evidence to support my last post.

 

[qui_est_ce]

Certainly, one of the wealthy elite (and a politician) for whom democracy and equality lose meaning completely when his own life is at stake. Equal treatment (as in justice) is only for those who CAN’T afford it, apparently. Unfortunately, this is the breed of politicians running democracies these days.

This is evidence to support my last post.

In the USA as well.

 

[ProVobis]

If you feel that way, then why did you have doubt about the couples’ premium and compare it to your COBRA premium? Is that apples and apples? Nope. You don’t even know what their coverage included.

You may want to take your own advice.

You’re right. I should not have mentioned COBRA since that’s just an extension of a group policy and not an individual insurance policy.

As far as that couples’ premium, however, I stand by what I wrote. I’ve had done some actuarial work so to me that kind of premium did raise some red flags. Sorry.

 

[Ridgerunner]

The reason some Canadians have chosen to go to the US for some treatments is because of a shortage of doctors and longish wait times. In large measure these people have chosen that route because the economy in the States has reduced prices there because many Americans could not afford them. To drum up business, private health service providers in the US have tried to lure customers from Canada to add to their income.

Does this actually make sense to you?

What you’re saying is that Canadians eschew free health care in Canada to go to the U.S. where they get charged (plenty, and we all know it) for the care because in the U.S. it’s cheaper than it might have been had costs gone up more than they did. And health clinics in the U.S. lure Canadians in with that proposition.

Instead of resorting to that, perhaps talking about Canadian doctor shortages and long wait times might have been more enlightening as to why Canadians come to the U.S. for treatment.

 

[SaintAugustine]

You’re right. I should not have mentioned COBRA since that’s just an extension of a group policy and not an individual insurance policy.

…and coverages, deductibles, etcetera would be 100% different.

As far as that couples’ premium, however, I stand by what I wrote. I’ve had done some actuarial work so to me that kind of premium did raise some red flags. Sorry.

That is no reason to imply that they lied.

 

[Peter_Plato]

Does this actually make sense to you?

What you’re saying is that Canadians eschew free health care in Canada to go to the U.S. where they get charged (plenty, and we all know it) for the care because in the U.S. it’s cheaper than it might have been had costs gone up more than they did. And health clinics in the U.S. lure Canadians in with that proposition.

Instead of resorting to that, perhaps talking about Canadian doctor shortages and long wait times might have been more enlightening as to why Canadians come to the U.S. for treatment.

A couple of points to clarify.

Canadians who go to the US typically go for two reasons:

1. Their medical complaint is one they view as critical and they do not want to risk any delay having the treatment. Typically, these are wealthy individuals who are not concerned about free vs costly. (Mr. Williams is an example.)
2. They have the money to afford high end or experimental treatments not covered by Canadian health care or where the alternative is more invasive or requires a longer convalescence. (Again, Mr. Williams is an example.)

To be clear, Canadians are not lured to the States for standard medical procedures where they would be paying for some service covered for free at home. These cross border sorties are almost always by the wealthy who take a pragmatic (to them) option because their health is worth paying for with money they have in abundance. I don’t see why this doesn’t make sense to you.

I did read an article recently of about several specialized clinics in the States who advertised their services in Canada specifically to lure Canadians on wait lists. I don’t recall the details, but something along the lines of hip replacement or knee surgery, where the costs were not so prohibitive that those in need, on a wait list (possibly as long as a year) would be treated for a cost not so prohibitive that it would be worth a trip to the States even if they had to pay the cost themselves.

There was mention that these clinics had to resort to drumming up business because the downturn in the US economy had caused a reduction in business for them. I will try to find the article.

Also to be clear, all provincial health plans will pay for treatments not available in Canada if those are deemed necessary by the attending physician. This does require pre-approval, however.

 

[Peter_Plato]

If you think that, then you need to research the issue MUCH more in depth. Canada’s system is a dumpster fire, and only sustained by the fact that they live next door to the best medical system, and their citizens can cross the border for medical care.

To address this point again.

Here are some counterfactual points that address your contention that health care in Canada is a “dumpster fire.”

People traveling to Canada for medical reasons are mostly from the United States. Medical care in United States is almost double the cost of what it is in Canada, making Canada an attractive medical tourism destination for Americans.

However, those who are still skeptical about standard of care in America and Canada, should take a close look at the facts provided:

• Average in-hospital treatment costs are nearly twice as much in the U.S. ($20,673 U.S. vs. $10,373)

• There are 9.9 qualified nurses per 1000 population in Canada as compared to 7.9 nurses per 1000 population in US.

• Overall satisfaction with the surgical experience is similar in both countries (85.3% U.S. and 83.5% Canada).

• The number of acute care hospital beds in Canada is 3.0 per 1000 population as compared to 2.8 in US

• Canadians have lower rates of in-hospital mortality (1.4% Canada vs. 2.2% U.S.).

• Administrative costs consume more of the total cost of treatment in the U.S. (38.2% of total costs in the U.S. vs. 31.7% in Canada).

• In-hospital cost of coronary artery bypass graft surgery (CABG) in the U.S. is 82.5 % higher in the U.S. than in Canada.

• The mortality rate for end-stage renal disease is 47% higher in the U.S. than in Canada. Adjusted monthly costs of treatment are $503 higher in the U.S.

• Fifty-seven percent (57%) of U.S. patients have reprocessed dialyzers used on them, compared with 0.0% of Canadian patients.

• Compared with the American counterparts, low-income Canadians have a significant survival.

• Advantage for 13 of the 15 kinds of cancer studied.

• One-year mortality rates following myocardial infarction are virtually identical for both countries (34.3% U.S. vs. 34.4% Canada).

• Canada has a higher rate of annual bone marrow transplants (0.89 per 100,000 population vs. 0.81per 100,000 in the U.S.)

• Canada has lower mortality rates for patients 65 and older three years after both low-mortality (18.52% U.S. vs. 15.31% Canada) and moderate-mortality (19.19% U.S. vs. 16.63% Canada) procedures.

• Survival rate for four disease conditions is higher in Canada than in America:
o Colorectal cancer: 113 Canada vs. 108 U.S.
o Childhood leukemia: 118 vs.110
o Kidney transplants 113 vs. 100
o Liver transplants 123 vs. 102

• Above all, American citizens do not need a visa if the length of stay is less than 180 days.

• The prescription drugs and medicines are far less expensive in Canada.

Source: findprivateclinics.ca/resources/general/medical-tourism.php

The above statistics are from a web site (and there are many) that arranges “medical tourism” (aka medical visits) FROM the States to Canada, so they do need to be checked for accuracy, but if the stats are correct, this shows that health traffic goes both ways and the level of care in Canada is, at least, comparable to the US for the most part.

Admittedly, the US is more advanced with high end or experimental procedures but that is because the free market in health care allows specialized practitioners and facilities to make a great deal of money from wealthy clients for this level of care.

 

[Ridgerunner]

A couple of points to clarify.

Canadians who go to the US typically go for two reasons:

1. Their medical complaint is one they view as critical and they do not want to risk any delay having the treatment. Typically, these are wealthy individuals who are not concerned about free vs costly. (Mr. Williams is an example.)
2. They have the money to afford high end or experimental treatments not covered by Canadian health care or where the alternative is more invasive or requires a longer convalescence. (Again, Mr. Williams is an example.)

To be clear, Canadians are not lured to the States for standard medical procedures where they would be paying for some service covered for free at home. These cross border sorties are almost always by the wealthy who take a pragmatic (to them) option because their health is worth paying for with money they have in abundance. I don’t see why this doesn’t make sense to you.

I did read an article recently of about several specialized clinics in the States who advertised their services in Canada specifically to lure Canadians on wait lists. I don’t recall the details, but something along the lines of hip replacement or knee surgery, where the costs were not so prohibitive that those in need, on a wait list (possibly as long as a year) would be treated for a cost not so prohibitive that it would be worth a trip to the States even if they had to pay the cost themselves.

There was mention that these clinics had to resort to drumming up business because the downturn in the US economy had caused a reduction in business for them. I will try to find the article.

Also to be clear, all provincial health plans will pay for treatments not available in Canada if those are deemed necessary by the attending physician. This does require pre-approval, however.

yes. This is different from what you expressed before.

I would question, however, whether Canadians would pay $60,000 for a knee replacement (and all the therapy that goes with it) rather than wait a year for one in Canada. Need for knee replacement is known long before it’s a “have to” situation. Long before. And it isn’t as if the knee will somehow need “less replacement” if you act more quickly.

But maybe that’s not the example you’re looking for. Now, for something like a rotator cuff repair, I could see it. Kind of a narrow time window for that, and the surgery is far less expensive than a knee replacement. If you wait a year for rotator cuff repair, you might as well not bother doing it at all.

And, of course, waiting a year for cancer surgery could be fatal.

 

[Lormar]

I don’t mean to say I told you so…
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.

…but I told you so.

 

[Peter_Plato]

A couple of points to clarify.

Canadians who go to the US typically go for two reasons:

1. Their medical complaint is one they view as critical and they do not want to risk any delay having the treatment. Typically, these are wealthy individuals who are not concerned about free vs costly. (Mr. Williams is an example.)
2. They have the money to afford high end or experimental treatments not covered by Canadian health care or where the alternative is more invasive or requires a longer convalescence. (Again, Mr. Williams is an example.)

Also to be clear, all provincial health plans will pay for treatments not available in Canada if those are deemed necessary by the attending physician. This does require pre-approval, however.

Evidence for the above points:

metroland.com/page/Cross-BorderCare

 

[Peter_Plato]

yes. This is different from what you expressed before.

I would question, however, whether Canadians would pay $60,000 for a knee replacement (and all the therapy that goes with it) rather than wait a year for one in Canada. Need for knee replacement is known long before it’s a “have to” situation. Long before. And it isn’t as if the knee will somehow need “less replacement” if you act more quickly.

But maybe that’s not the example you’re looking for. Now, for something like a rotator cuff repair, I could see it. Kind of a narrow time window for that, and the surgery is far less expensive than a knee replacement. If you wait a year for rotator cuff repair, you might as well not bother doing it at all.

And, of course, waiting a year for cancer surgery could be fatal.

If the knee replacement were done at a specialized clinic and therapy covered at home, the cost may not be anywhere near $60k, but you are correct that it may not have been the procedure in question.

Going by the article in my last post, MRIs and CT scans were the two highest wait list procedures in Ontario. These typically cost between $1200 and $4000. If any subsequent treatment depended upon having one of these done, then it would certainly make sense for a Canadian on a wait list to travel to the States to bypass the wait time. So here is another case where cost vs free may be a sensible option.

 

[MJE]

Congresswoman Renee Ellmers questioned HHS Secretary Kathleen Sebelius during this morning’s hearing of the Energy and Commerce Committee on the failed Obamacare exchange roll-out and massive website problems.
Ellmers was brilliant – Blasting Sebelius for the government forcing men to carry maternity benefits.
“Correct me if I’m wrong, do men not have to cover maternity coverage?… We’re forcing them to buy things that they will never need. To the best of your knowledge has a man ever delivered a baby?“

Watch the video:
thegatewaypundit.com/

 

[Peter_Plato]

But maybe that’s not the example you’re looking for.

Here is the article I mentioned previously concerning how the US economy has driven down prices.

theglobeandmail.com/life/health-and-fitness/canadians-buy-us-health-care-as-weak-economy-pushes-down-prices/article572476/

Hip and knee replacements were some of the procedures in question. Glad to know my memory still functions.

 

[Orogeny]

So here is another case where cost vs free may be a sensible option.

Perhaps you have inadvertently pointed to a real problem - free doesn’t exist. That could explain the long wait for an MRI that one needs.

Peace

Tim

ps - love your signature. It is from my favorite Pink Floyd song.

 

[Peter_Plato]

Perhaps you have inadvertently pointed to a real problem - free doesn’t exist. That could explain the long wait for an MRI that one needs.

Peace

Tim

ps - love your signature. It is from my favorite Pink Floyd song.

You are correct free doesn’t exist in this context. It would be better described as “previously paid for.” Why would someone pay for a procedure they pay for through taxes?

My general point is that a functional health care system is possible at a price far less than Obamacare despite some issues with it. I am certain that the US system, even in its previous iteration, was not without its own issues.

The question of the thread, I think, is at bottom, a question of whether a functional universal system of healthcare should be so expensive as it apparently will be under Obamacare. It needn’t be.

RE: Pink Floyd.
Have you tried the link in my signature? A live version on YouTube.

 

[_Abyssinia]

A couple of points to clarify.

Canadians who go to the US typically go for two reasons:

1. Their medical complaint is one they view as critical and they do not want to risk any delay having the treatment. Typically, these are wealthy individuals who are not concerned about free vs costly. (Mr. Williams is an example.)
2. They have the money to afford high end or experimental treatments not covered by Canadian health care or where the alternative is more invasive or requires a longer convalescence. (Again, Mr. Williams is an example.)

To be clear, Canadians are not lured to the States for standard medical procedures where they would be paying for some service covered for free at home. These cross border sorties are almost always by the wealthy who take a pragmatic (to them) option because their health is worth paying for with money they have in abundance. I don’t see why this doesn’t make sense to you.

I did read an article recently of about several specialized clinics in the States who advertised their services in Canada specifically to lure Canadians on wait lists. I don’t recall the details, but something along the lines of hip replacement or knee surgery, where the costs were not so prohibitive that those in need, on a wait list (possibly as long as a year) would be treated for a cost not so prohibitive that it would be worth a trip to the States even if they had to pay the cost themselves.

There was mention that these clinics had to resort to drumming up business because the downturn in the US economy had caused a reduction in business for them. I will try to find the article.

Also to be clear, all provincial health plans will pay for treatments not available in Canada if those are deemed necessary by the attending physician. This does require pre-approval, however.

Not sure of the wealth status of Canadians that leave for the US for medical treatment but a study by the Fraster Insisute of Canadians that left for the US in 2011 concluded

In 2011, an estimated 46,159 Canadians received nonemergency medical treatment outside Canada. In some cases, these patients needed to leave Canada due to a lack of available resources or a lack of appropriate procedure/technology. In others, their departure will have been driven by a desire to return more quickly to their lives, to seek out superior quality care, or perhaps to save their own lives or avoid the risk of disability. Clearly, the number of Canadians who ultimately receive their medical care in other countries is not insignificant.

fraserinstitute.org/uploadedFiles/fraser-ca/Content/research-news/research/articles/leaving-canada-for-medical-care-2011-ff0712.pdf

More infomation on the survey

fraserinstitute.org/uploadedFiles/fraser-ca/Content/research-news/research/publications/waiting-your-turn-2011.pdf

British Columbia and Quebec sent people to US reported to have happened years ago, not sure if it still going on now.

Quebec sending cancer patients to U.S.

 

[Peter_Plato]

Not sure of the wealth status of Canadians that leave for the US for medical treatment but a study by the Fraster Insisute of Canadians that left for the US in 2011 concluded

fraserinstitute.org/uploadedFiles/fraser-ca/Content/research-news/research/articles/leaving-canada-for-medical-care-2011-ff0712.pdf

More infomation on the survey

fraserinstitute.org/uploadedFiles/fraser-ca/Content/research-news/research/publications/waiting-your-turn-2011.pdf

British Columbia and Quebec sent people to US reported to have happened years ago, not sure if it still going on now.

Quebec sending cancer patients to U.S.

Okay 46,000 Canadians sought healthcare outside of Canada in 2011. Proportionately, the US population (310 million) is about 10 times (actually 9.1) that of Canada (34 million), so a comparable health system would expect about 460, 000 Americans to have sought care elsewhere.

The actual number in 2010:

According to Deloitte consulting services, 875,000 Americans like my parents were medical tourists in 2010, traveling outside U.S. borders to receive health care: dental work, elective hip replacements, even bypass surgery.

Source: articles.washingtonpost.com/2011-04-04/national/35231713_1_health-care-medical-tourism-devi-shetty

That would indicate the US health care system was only half as good as the Canadian system. Correct?