Obama backs mosque near ground zero

[scipio337]

Right here: abcnews.go.com/2020/story?id=123885&page=4

Thank you, but I didn’t see anything that substantiated your claim that they were Israeli intelligence, or had preknowledge.

“To date, this investigation has not identified anybody who in this country had pre-knowledge of the events of 9/11.”

 

[scipio337]

Right here: abcnews.go.com/2020/story?id=123885&page=4

Thank you. There’s lots of speculation, but I don’t see anything that confirms anyone “knew something was up and deliberately didn’t act on it”.

The FBI seems to claim the exact opposite.

 

[GaryTaylor]

Obama being Muslim or not isn’t the issue. Obama leading this country by standing up for what he believes in, is the issue. If you can’t stand up for what you are and do believe in, how can you expect anybody to stand behind you? How do you gain respect from your country like that. How do gain respect from world leaders when your country has none? Great leaders lead by example. They don’t have to have the gift of gab.

So apparently he’s Protestant and a firm believer in the Constitution this month? What about next month when the constitution doesn’t seem to coincide with his intentions? Slip it through the back door again while the senate is on break? Hows hes gonna act during the next crisis, like the Oil Spill? Come on, certainly this is in jest right?

He may well fool us all, but that remains to be seen. Thats a yet. And many of us have a vested right in this country, so a world government doesn’t fit in that thinking.

And this is without even going into religion.

 

[bbarrick8383]

Let me throw out a hypothetical here.

Let’s say a woman gets brutally raped, really scars her emotionally for life. She saw the guy and was able to have him thrown in prison for a long time. She goes home one day to find out that someone may be purchasing the house next door to her. And to her horror the man turns out to be the identical twin brother of the man who raped her.

The man has every right to buy the house, but should he? She doesn’t know him, he may be a loving Christian father who had no idea that she lived there. But he really likes that house.

I guess she should just deal with it. Or he could show some sensitivity and look elsewhere.

But I guess that would just make her a bigot now wouldn’t it?

 

[GaryTaylor]

Naw, its in bad taste, theres no question about that. I thought the Shinto was in bad taste also. But hey this is america.

Its not a question of Federal and State law. And we as Catholics don’t speak out against the Christian Radical groups either. At least I haven’t and haven’t heard others? So theres no point in asking why all muslims don’t speak up against terror. Its obvious to me they all don’t believe in it.

 

[Darryl1958]

So, you don’t find the fact that “the Sharia extremists want to impose and the Sharia of the Madhabs” are very close in their interpretations of Shariah law troubling?

Soft jihad is far more effective and insidious andeffective that the hard jihad, especially among people with soft beliefs. Martydom firms the resolve of a people, just like 9/11 has done for Americans—and Armenians.

Death by a thousand humilations has worked best over time.

 

[InSearchofGrace]

Unfortunatley, the Quran and Hadiths are all too explicit on any number of human rights issues.

Perhaps you could point out the differences in, say, punishment for adultery, apostacy, legal standing of non-Muslims, etc?

Well, “apostacy” for one, but it’s in the Hadith. For apostacy: Sahih al-Bukhari, 9:83:17, 4:52:260, 9:84:57, 9:84:58, 9:89:271.

Bingo!

You nailed in direct and clear answers what no Christian apologist (on behalf of Muslims) appreciates or acknowledges, from what may be a sincere Western sense of fairness and equality, or worry of being accused of stereotyping.

The fact is no Muslim, not even the truly peaceful kind, is able to disown or can truthfully admit the verses in Islamic teaching that are violent and against human rights. Except of course if he/she has accepted to face the great peril in doing so, or has already left Islam.

There is no misinterpreting these Qu’ranic verses, or sidestepping the hadiths. And defenders keep on claiming that terrorist attacks such as the downing of the twin towers on 9/11 are done by extremists who follow a “corrupted” or “perverted” brand of Islam. These defenders are also in favor of building this mosque near Ground Zero.

 

[Teelynn]

Bingo!

You nailed in direct and clear answers what no Christian apologist (on behalf of Muslims) appreciates or acknowledges, from what may be a sincere Western sense of fairness and equality, or worry of being accused of stereotyping.

The fact is no Muslim, not even the truly peaceful kind, is able to disown or can truthfully admit the verses in Islamic teaching that are violent and against human rights. Except of course if he/she has accepted to face the great peril in doing so, or has already left Islam.

There is no misinterpreting these Qu’ranic verses, or sidestepping the hadiths. And defenders keep on claiming that terrorist attacks such as the downing of the twin towers on 9/11 are done by extremists who follow a “corrupted” or “perverted” brand of Islam. These defenders are also in favor of building this mosque near Ground Zero.

What defenders are these? From what I understand, the (what I refer to as) “moderate muslims” are not in favor of building this mosque near ground zero. I guess you can’t lump them all together.

One point you’ve touched on that I have observed over the years: even moderate muslims will never disown the violence in the Quran. Just cannot get them to renounce it, or say that it’s not there.

 

[colmywaykurtz]

Obama being Muslim or not isn’t the issue. Obama leading this country by standing up for what he believes in, is the issue. If you can’t stand up for what you are and do believe in, how can you expect anybody to stand behind you? How do you gain respect from your country like that. How do gain respect from world leaders when your country has none? Great leaders lead by example. They don’t have to have the gift of gab.

So apparently he’s Protestant and a firm believer in the Constitution this month? What about next month when the constitution doesn’t seem to coincide with his intentions? Slip it through the back door again while the senate is on break? Hows hes gonna act during the next crisis, like the Oil Spill? Come on, certainly this is in jest right?

He may well fool us all, but that remains to be seen. Thats a yet. And many of us have a vested right in this country, so a world government doesn’t fit in that thinking.

And this is without even going into religion.

There’s certainly some truth in what you say. But the electorate isn’t perfect, either, and the data quoted by Gary Taylor DO suggest that many let their perceptions of his job performance be influenced by their perception of his “religion,” false as that is. Would this be the first time? No. The “Know-Nothings” made significant inroads with the electorate in Chicago and Boston and Massachusetts for a few years by whipping up fear of “papistry.”

I’m not saying Obama’s numbers would be stratospheric if people all got “educated” and realized he wasn’t a Muslim, but it might well tip him over into 50+ country, or even a bit higher.

 

[GaryTaylor]

You have to understand something about violence and being and American and living in America. Today in America you can use lethal force against someone who is attacking you with a weapon. Self Defense laws etc. We can’t sit here in good consciousness, criticize what the Quran states. Look at our very own fabric of violence here in the US, and how we handle it. Gun laws, right to bear arms, especially in the old west/Texas. Pretty wild out there. Look at the south, they still fly rebel flags in southern states like Georgia and firmly believe the US ends at the Virginia border? And they are serious. Red Necks are real.

Without a doubt we have many issues that come to mind here. One is being an American. The second is being a Catholic/Christian in American. A Islamic/American etc. The laws in the US are not aligned with the Bible. And they are not aligned with the Quran either. So thus theres a religious point of view and US legal point of view. If a muslim kidnaps a 9yo girl and rapes her and forces her to be a muslin here in the US? They will give you approx, 100 years in Prison. And if you murder the child they may very well give you a lethal injection? So the attrocity of 3rd world Islam is also not happening here. And when the catch bin Laden they will hang him, just as they did Hussin.

Sort of what I referred to many pages back. What about the property owner who builds a BBQ that sells Pork “next door” to the Mosque and also sells Porn aimed at religious children? And he happens to be a Hells Angel? And the Hells Angels have a main chapter in Manhattan thats been there 50-years. Well once again, the Muslims at Ground Zero will have to put a H on there chest and Handle it. Its America? Just as the familys of 9/11 must. And be it you eat Pork, like Porn, or care for the Hells Angels, or Mosques, they have every single right as the rest of us. As long as they live within the boundry of US and State Law? And not only is this the US, thats NYC. If its evil and from satan? Its already existed in NYC. Nothing else you could put there that could possibly be and more insane than whats already there. Muslims arn’t raising any havoc in NYC. They are a silent race there.

If your talking about turning the US into a Christian Nation and then instill the morals of the Holy Bible, I hear you. And you would find my relgious belief to be very radical as a Catholic. I’m not a part time practitioner of the BIble. I firmly believe in this faith.

But this country is what it is, untill someone gets their act together and change’s it. As I mentioned my main concern is the direction our goverment is thinking. And the idea of selling out the country for a New World Government. I find that thinking very hard to swallow. I believe its not only against God, its the destruction of a great country.

Talk and debat is all great, but whats the reality here? The country will either remain exactly like it is based on the beliefs of its founders. It will change to Islam or Christology or we’ll have a NWO? So I mean really, how are we gonna act?

We all need to seriously think about what “we” want to do with this country. Because as of THIS moment. We have way more control than you even think. But if we sit back and do nothing, then surely someone else will do something. Thats just common sense. If you make enough noise and it sounds RIGHT? People will rally behind you here. Look at history, talk to americans.

Most americans are living in there own little bubble. They see the problems, they read the papers and watch the news. Most have an education and earn a decent living and are GOOD people. They need GOOD leaders and they will follow, heck they follow the wrong ones?. Many in the US as I do, have a vested interest in this country. Through war, career, retirement, social security, investment etc. Trust me the public is very concerned and just in need of a solid good leader, with a solid religious background. Thats all it will take. But it needs to happen soon. We don’t have another 2-decades to waste away with mediocrity.

Nuclear war is not a reality. We have nuclear weapons to insure there is not nuclear war. Thats not a solution. Grounded, clear, thinking based on Moral belief is the right thinking and direction. We need leaders with proven solid religious beliefs. Not some nonsense satan dreamed up in hell.

The economy isn’t as big of an issue as thought. This country is resisilant, they are known for manufacturing and quality. They are the leader of the military world. Great craftsman here, and great minds. MOF if its not from america I don’t own it.

Don’t sell the country out to fast, its not going anywhere tonight. We need a great Catholic leader. Thats what we need. Let me get off my soap-box now.

God Bless all, GT

 

[GaryTaylor]

There’s certainly some truth in what you say. But the electorate isn’t perfect, either, and the data quoted by Gary Taylor DO suggest that many let their perceptions of his job performance be influenced by their perception of his “religion,” false as that is. Would this be the first time? No. The “Know-Nothings” made significant inroads with the electorate in Chicago and Boston and Massachusetts for a few years by whipping up fear of “papistry.”

I’m not saying Obama’s numbers would be stratospheric if people all got “educated” and realized he wasn’t a Muslim, but it might well tip him over into 50+ country, or even a bit higher.

You know he hasn’t had an easy ride either. Hey I voted for him. The guys aged 20-years in the last two I wish he clarified all the new world government thinking. I can’t go for that, thats against my religious belief.

 

[kaid100]

The risk is that if all the public pressure stops the mosque being built, it may set a precedent for the churches etc of other religions. Suppose a new Catholic Church is being built in Omagh, and Protestant politicians start wading in using the same arguments as the anti-mosque lot are using in New York? If the Muslims back down over the mosque, the Church might have to do the same.

 

[Darryl1958]

The risk is that if all the public pressure stops the mosque being built, it may set a precedent for the churches etc of other religions. Suppose a new Catholic Church is being built in Omagh, and Protestant politicians start wading in using the same arguments as the anti-mosque lot are using in New York? If the Muslims back down over the mosque, the Church might have to do the same.

It is exceedingly hard to get zoning approved for churches anyways. A NIMBY attitude prevails with not just a little anti-Christian bigotry in the mix.
It would be good though to set a precedent that an event as big as the slaughter of 3000 be considered before building in this location. Pope John Paul II already established that principle and precedent for us when he firmly requested his cherished Carmelite nuns to not build a convent overlooking Auschwitz. To do so would be to disrespect the genocide against Jews that defined those grounds as hallowed. It would have been an inappropriate response for decent people to not understand some of the feelings that such actions would injure.

 

[seekerz]

The risk is that if all the public pressure stops the mosque being built, it may set a precedent for the churches etc of other religions. Suppose a new Catholic Church is being built in Omagh, and Protestant politicians start wading in using the same arguments as the anti-mosque lot are using in New York? If the Muslims back down over the mosque, the Church might have to do the same.

Choices and consequences that we would do well to ponder before getting all hot and bothered about the physical location of this mosque…

Also, I’m not sure what kind of compromise can be reached here: some people want it there, others don’t…how on earth can there be compromise between these two positions? Seems to me it’s a win-lose situation with no middle ground and one side just has to bite the bullet and accept defeat.

 

[colmywaykurtz]

You know he hasn’t had an easy ride either. Hey I voted for him. The guys aged 20-years in the last two I wish he clarified all the new world government thinking. I can’t go for that, thats against my religious belief.

I didn’t vote for him (didn’t vote GOP, either), but I don’t consider him Satan incarnate like some around here do, and I think he HAS done some things right. Still trying to make up my mind if there’s any harm in a mosque two blocks from Ground Zero, but I DON’T think Obama took a 1st amendment stand on the issue to “sell out America.” THAT’S ridiculous.

 

[colmywaykurtz]

The risk is that if all the public pressure stops the mosque being built, it may set a precedent for the churches etc of other religions. Suppose a new Catholic Church is being built in Omagh, and Protestant politicians start wading in using the same arguments as the anti-mosque lot are using in New York? If the Muslims back down over the mosque, the Church might have to do the same.

Bingo! There’s all too many media and lawyer types who stand all-too-ready to use the same tactics to prevent the building of new Catholic churches. Let that snake out of the bag, and he’s likely to circle back to bite us in the derriere.

 

[TheTrueCentrist]

What defenders are these? From what I understand, the (what I refer to as) “moderate muslims” are not in favor of building this mosque near ground zero. I guess you can’t lump them all together.

One point you’ve touched on that I have observed over the years: even moderate muslims will never disown the violence in the Quran. Just cannot get them to renounce it, or say that it’s not there.

Just like a moderate Catholic will never disown the violence in the old testament.
boston.com/news/local/articles_of_faith/2009/03/scholar_compare.html

 

[TheTrueCentrist]

Let me throw out a hypothetical here.

Let’s say a woman gets brutally raped, really scars her emotionally for life. She saw the guy and was able to have him thrown in prison for a long time. She goes home one day to find out that someone may be purchasing the house next door to her. And to her horror the man turns out to be the identical twin brother of the man who raped her.

The man has every right to buy the house, but should he? She doesn’t know him, he may be a loving Christian father who had no idea that she lived there. But he really likes that house.

I guess she should just deal with it. Or he could show some sensitivity and look elsewhere.

But I guess that would just make her a bigot now wouldn’t it?

Perfect! This is a pretty good analogy! I would say the answer to the question “should he move there” is the same as the answer to the question “is the woman willing to be reasonable?”

It is the same as in NY.

 

[TheTrueCentrist]

Unless you believe there is something wrong about being a Muslim why would you consider it a smear for somebody to believe Obama was one?

Its fairly simple, people are calling him a Muslim for the express purpose of drumming up dissent. That is to say, their intent is to smear him in the eyes of those who feel there is a problem with being Muslim. It is therefore a smear because it is untrue, and the implication is that there is a problem, not because there actually is anything wrong with being a Muslim.

 

[TheTrueCentrist]

Perfect! This is a pretty good analogy! I would say the answer to the question “should he move there” is the same as the answer to the question “is the woman willing to be reasonable?”

It is the same as in NY.

The more I think about it, the less I like the analogy. I think a better one would be for the twin brother to be a lawyer and offer to handle her case pro-bono.