Obama backs mosque near ground zero

[Darryl1958]

"They won’t build it! Hardhats vow not to work on controversial mosque near Ground Zero

A growing number of New York construction workers are vowing not to work on the mosque planned near Ground Zero."…

Entire article: nydailynews.com/ny_local/2010/08/20/2010-08-20_we_wont_build_it_hardhats_say_no_way_they_will_work_on_wtc_mosque.html

 

[Darryl1958]

Good point. Americans aren’t really that well informed about Muslims or their culture and religion. We, as a country, haven’t gotten there yet. From what I know their culture and religion are interconnected. But I think Americans have learned not to TRUST. I think it all goes back to TRUST. And you could say that there might be some legitimacy there. The leaders of countries in the Middle East NEVER seem to speak the truth. They talk out of both sides of their mouths. At this point in time, that’s about all we have to go on. And the track record is not good.

The more that we are learning, the less we are trusting.

 

[Ridgerunner]

How close is this center to the Auschwitz camp?

According to Google Maps, the Catholic center for prayer and understanding at Auschwitz is 550 meters from the concentration camp perimeter…

550 meters is, I believe, about a quarter mile.

 

[Hislittlelady]

After all, they voted for “Hope and Change.”

They’re getting what they voted for. What’s the big deal?

(New York was won by Democratic nominee Barack Obama with a 26.9% margin of victory.)

They’re being “Fundamentally Transformed.”

God Bless.
+Jesus, I Trust in You!
Love, Dawn

All too true. People wanted change and so we have it. In fact the change is so great that one day in the future there will be no more America. I haven’t the foggiest what we shall be, but it won’t be anything we recognize now. Also remember we were told that we’d be destroyed from the inside out. You figure that one out. I’m not saying a word.

 

[CatholicGerman]

Yeah, wow. But it gets better. The comparison is odious for another reason:

The majority of visitors to Auschwitz are not Jewish! The majority are Catholics, mostly Polish students. As a child, like most German children, my school took a field trip to Dachau (or another concentration or extermination camp). They bring us there to remember the tragedy and to say, “Never again.” The majority of visitors to concentration and extermination camps are not Jewish.

The day that Islamic schools start driving busloads of Muslim schoolchildren to 9/11, and 1.3 million Muslims go to the mosque to pray for Allah’s forgiveness, will be the day I agree to put a mosque there. Muslims could pilgrimage from all over the world to do their mea culpa, cry over the deaths of the innocents, be horrified by the cruelty and indifference to human suffering that went on there, and accept their collective guilt, like we did.

Putting up a muslim community center with a mosque, a fitness room, and a swimming pool, is not the same thing. Not even by a stretch. They aren’t going there to mourn and pay their respects. They’re going there to party and praise Allah.

Furthermore, most of the people who died at Auschwitz I weren’t Jewish! Auschwitz I was mostly a camp for political prisoners, including many Catholics . The Jews died at Birkenau (Auschwitz II), which is at a separate location. Birkenau is the extermination camp, and there are no crosses or anything there. Here is a fascinating website dealing with the whole controversy.

Actually, the place where most of the Jews perished in the Holocaust is not at the Auschwitz main camp, called Auschwitz I, outside of which Christian crosses were placed in 1998, but at Auschwitz II, a huge subsidiary camp, 3 kilometers from the Auschwitz I camp. Auschwitz II is better known as Birkenau, and the whole camp complex is now called Auschwitz-Birkenau.

From Wikepedia:

The Auschwitz complex of camps encompassed a large industrial area rich in natural resources. There were 48 camps in all. The three main camps were Auschwitz I, Auschwitz II-Birkenau, and a work camp called Auschwitz III-Monowitz, or the Buna. Auschwitz I served as the administrative center, and was the site of the deaths of roughly 70,000 people, mostly ethnic Poles and Soviet prisoners of war. Auschwitz II was an extermination camp or Vernichtungslager, the site of the deaths of at least 960,000 Jews, 75,000 Poles, and some 19,000 Roma (Gypsies). Auschwitz III-Monowitz served as a labor camp for the Buna-Werke factory of the IG Farben concern.

 

[CatholicGerman]

550 meters is, I believe, about a quarter mile.

0.34 miles

 

[Hislittlelady]

I’ve heard it discussed before, but I wasn’t sure.

Americans have a million questions about islam and the only way they will ever get support for a mosque near the 9/11 site is if they spend some time answering those questions and convincing the average American that there is nothing to be afraid of.

You are correct. I need plenty of convincing. I’m scared to death. Is Allah and our God one and the same. If so, then that means we have a very violent God. I was under the impression that he was loving and kind, but just. I thought God said “Thou Shalt not kill.” That means that their God is not our God because killing is not only permitted by them, but absolutely encouraged. Until these people can tell me this is not true, I will continue to be in fear. God protect us all and change the hearts of those who are against you.

 

[SwizzleStick]

"Tawfik Hamid: Ground Zero Mosque Islamic Victory Symbol

Islamic expert Tawfik Hamid tells Newsmax that many Muslims will view the construction of a mosque near ground zero as symbolizing a “triumph over America.”

He also declares that if the mosque is built it could prove to be the “spark” that begins a “war between civilizations.”

Hamid is well acquainted with the threats from radical Islam — he was once a member of a terrorist Islamic organization along with Dr. Ayman Al-Zawahiri, who later became the second in command of al-Qaida.

Today Hamid is a senior fellow and chair for the Study of Islamic Radicalism at the Potomac Institute for Policy Studies. He is the author of “Inside Jihad: Understanding and Confronting Radical Islam,” and a regular Newsmax contributor."…

Entire article: newsmax.com/InsideCover/ground-zero-mosque-tawfik-hamid-hamas-obama-bloomberg/2010/08/18/id/367823

 

[GaryTaylor]

Former Mayor of NYC Giuliani spoke August 19th on NBC Today Show, and is characterizing the proposed mosque and Islamic cultural center near Ground Zero as “divisive,” saying Thursday that the organizers’ plans are breeding hate rather than healing wounds.

“All this is doing is creating more division, more anger, more hatred,” Mr. Giuliani said during an interview on NBC’s “Today” show.

“The reality is that right now, if you are a healer, you do not go forward with this project. If you’re a warrior you do,” declared Mr. Giuliani, the New York official most closely associated with the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attack on the World Trade Center.

The remarks put him squarely at odds with his successor, Mayor Michael Bloomberg, the proposed mosque’s most outspoken advocate.

Mr. Giuliani, a former U.S. attorney and a Republican candidate for president in 2008, said the organizers have “every right” to build the center two blocks from the site of the fallen Twin Towers.

“The question is, should they build it?” he said. “Are they displaying the sensitivity they claim by building it?”

Mr. Giuliani, who served as mayor from 1994 through 2001, argued that the project, if built, would “horribly offend” the people most directly affected by the terrorist attacks: the families of the victims.

He also took direct aim at the imam behind the center, Feisal Abdul Rauf, accusing him of “selling sensitivity” and questioning whether his motives are genuine.

The former mayor praised Democratic Gov. David Paterson for proposing to meet with the project’s organizers in hopes of finding an alternative location in Lower Manhattan that would be less controversial.

Anyway not sure if this will effect anything but its the latest I’ve heard about the Mosque.

God Bless, GT

 

[estesbob]

I’ve heard it discussed before, but I wasn’t sure.

Are non-muslims allowed to enter a mosque?

Yes. I have been to Mosques many times for funerals of clients family members. The first time I went to a Muslim funeral I ended up participating in midday prayers(on my knees and bowing 5 times) thinking it was part of the funeral service.

 

[iamrefreshed]

Because the building was directly involved in the operations of the Nazi death camp, it is not comparable to the mosque which is proposed two blocks from Ground Zero because that site was not involved in the events of 9/11.

Actually, 45-51 Park was damaged from the landing gear and engine from the second strike. That was actually used as a selling point.

 

[iamrefreshed]

You can see how close it is here. The mosque will be at the red star.

mapquest.com/maps?city=New+York&state=NY&address=45-51+Park+Pl&zipcode=10007-2404&country=US&latitude=40.713428&longitude=-74.00963&geocode=ADDRESS

 

[CatholicGerman]

Interesting, from Townhall:

Does anyone find it ironic that the very people who protest so loudly over supposed affronts to Islamic religious expression are often so hostile to the slightest Christian religious expressions – even incidental expressions?

The left is going bonkers over opposition to the ground zero mosque in the name of religious freedom, but the left’s assault on Christian liberties proceeds unabated. One very recent example is the ruling by a three-judge panel of the 10th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals that memorial crosses erected and displayed along Utah public roads to honor fallen state highway troopers must be removed as unconstitutional.

In case you are wondering how highway crosses could remotely be considered to have violated any constitutional provision, the court tells us: “We hold that these memorials have the impermissible effect of conveying to the reasonable observer the message that the state prefers or otherwise endorses a certain religion.”

So here we go again. Our politically correct-intoxicated culture is so allergic to expressions and symbols of Christianity that our courts leap to absurd conclusions to cordon off the chief allergen: Christianity.

To fully appreciate the outrageousness of the court’s decision, you must understand that the memorial crosses were placed along Utah public roads by a private – not public – organization, the Utah Highway Patrol Association, which also maintains the crosses.

The egregious constitutional infraction here is not that the government put up the signs, which it didn’t, but that the memorials were placed along public roads. Thus, “reasonable” passing motorists – as opposed, I guess, to those afflicted with anti-Christian road rage – might well assume that the government is endorsing the Christian religion. Horror of horrors. My gosh, what would the largely Christian Founders think?

Ironic, considering that the Supreme Court just ruled that the cross is not a religious symbol.

 

[seekerz]

You are correct. I need plenty of convincing. I’m scared to death. Is Allah and our God one and the same. If so, then that means we have a very violent God. I was under the impression that he was loving and kind, but just. I thought God said “Thou Shalt not kill.” That means that their God is not our God because killing is not only permitted by them, but absolutely encouraged. Until these people can tell me this is not true, I will continue to be in fear. God protect us all and change the hearts of those who are against you.

What’s there to fear when you’re in God’s care? Can someone steal your soul away? Honestly, I have to admit that I’m frustrated and not a little irritated by posts like yours. If the Christians of the first century were namby pamby believers we’d not likely have a Church today! I don’t have a death wish but if, God forbid, someone were able to kill me, I’d just get to heaven faster - what’s to fear?!

Islam didn’t appear out of thin air in the last one or two decades…it’s existed alongside other religions for centuries and we’re all alive so if world domination and infidel annihilation is really what they’re all about they’re sure dragging their feet about it.

It’s getting really discouraging to see the way many Christians are reacting to this issue. The same people who would explode if someone questions their Christianity (which, at this point, maybe we should) are the same ones who insist on spreading the falsehood that the President is a Muslim. Then these same people insist on having their ‘sensitivities’ respected. Meantime, if the TV footage of the protests are anything to go by (which maybe they shouldn’t be), Muslims seem to be the ones ‘turning the other cheek’ in the mosque debate.

I’ve tried to see both sides in this debate but I’ve had it. The level of ignorance and bigotry I’m seeing the last few days is astounding and shameful and the so-called leaders (religious and political) who seek to profit from it by whipping up hysteria will answer to God. I’ve even seen people using invectives online against the name Allah - something that would deeply offend our Arab Christian sisters and brothers (for Muslims it goes with out saying). Get a grip people - the victory was already won on the cross for all who will receive it…

P.S. Maybe we all need a few ‘consultants’ from among Rwandan Christians to show us how to live face to face, shoulder to shoulder, everyday with those who hacked millions of their loved ones to death…

 

[estesbob]

What’s there to fear when you’re in God’s care? Can someone steal your soul away? Honestly, I have to admit that I’m frustrated and not a little irritated by posts like yours. If the Christians of the first century were namby pamby believers we’d not likely have a Church today! I don’t have a death wish but if, God forbid, someone were able to kill me, I’d just get to heaven faster - what’s to fear?!

Islam didn’t appear out of thin air in the last one or two decades…it’s existed alongside other religions for centuries and we’re all alive so if world domination and infidel annihilation is really what they’re all about they’re sure dragging their feet about it.

It’s getting really discouraging to see the way many Christians are reacting to this issue. The same people who would explode if someone questions their Christianity (which, at this point, maybe we should) are the same ones who insist on spreading the falsehood that the President is a Muslim. Then these same people insist on having their ‘sensitivities’ respected. Meantime, if the TV footage of the protests are anything to go by (which maybe they shouldn’t be), Muslims seem to be the ones ‘turning the other cheek’ in the mosque debate.

I’ve tried to see both sides in this debate but I’ve had it. The level of ignorance and bigotry I’m seeing the last few days is astounding and shameful and the so-called leaders (religious and political) who seek to profit from it by whipping up hysteria will answer to God. I’ve even seen people using invectives online against the name Allah - something that would deeply offend our Arab Christian sisters and brothers. Get a grip people - the victory was already won on the cross for all who will receive it…

P.S. Maybe we all need a few ‘consultants’ from among Rwandan Christians to show us how to live face to face, shoulder to shoulder, everyday with those who hacked millions of their loved ones to death…

Another everybody who disagrees with me is a bigot post-with a little Christianity has been just as evil as Islam sprinkled in.

 

[Vezelay]

Yes. I have been to Mosques many times for funerals of clients family members. The first time I went to a Muslim funeral I ended up participating in midday prayers(on my knees and bowing 5 times) thinking it was part of the funeral service.

Of course non-Muslims can enter mosques, just as Muslims can enter Christian churches and do. We have done so, taking off our shoes and putting them in the plastic bag provided. There is right at ground zero a church where Christians, Jews and Muslims alternately pray. Yes, Muslims are already praying at ground zero. The proposed Muslim community center will be two blocks from the corner edge of ground zero but 5 blocks from where the twin towers stood. How many blocks away would you like it? And who will purchase that derelict bldg from the Muslims group??? and what will be there in that desolated neighborhood instead of an attractive 12 story bldg??? The Sufi Muslims of Imam Rauf already pray at the old Burlington coat factory. Do you want them to stop? There are 100 or more mosques in Manhattan but there are so many different kinds of Islam that a lot of them would not be suitable for Sufi Muslims. Just as there are hundreds of Christian churches there, Lutheran, Baptist, Congregational, Episcopal, Catholic, etc etc not all of them would be suitable for us Catholics. By the way, Muslims pray in a special prayer room in the Pentagon. Are you opposed to that? And to all the areas on every military base where Muslims can pray and do?
The attorney Ted Olsen’s wife died in the plane that went down in PA. He supports the construction of the Muslim center, Park 51, as does one of the organizations of survivors of the terrorist attack. The black Republican political caucus in congress has reacted strongly to Republican opposition to this center. Don’t forget dozens of innocent Muslims died in the disaster.
Iman Rauf has been consulted by George Bush when president, the state dept who sought his help and the Pentagon where he was very helpful. I wish you would all read what the Imam had to say at the memorial for Daniel Pearl. He truly unified the Jewish, Christian and Muslim feeling. What he had to say after 9/11 is exactly the same as what was said in the Report on 9/11. It is also the same as what Glenn Beck had to say, with his black board where he listed all the the things the US had done to cause enmity in the Muslim world. Check out the video of that.
The mosque proposed in Staten Island, many miles away from ground zero, was hotly opposed and the mobs forced the Catholic church to rescind its offer to sell their empty church to the Muslims for the proposed mosque. Of course that led the church stuck with a derelict old church on their hands. Who else would buy it? Around the country there are scores of empty churches on the market. They felt lucky when the Muslims wanted to buy it but hatred forced them to remain stuck with an empty bldg. Please start sounding like Christians. I am so ashamed to hear the hatred of so-called people of God against other people of God. PACE

 

[estesbob]

Of course non-Muslims can enter mosques, just as Muslims can enter Christian churches and do. We have done so, taking off our shoes and putting them in the plastic bag provided. There is right at ground zero a church where Christians, Jews and Muslims alternately pray. Yes, Muslims are already praying at ground zero. The proposed Muslim community center will be two blocks from the corner edge of ground zero but 5 blocks from where the twin towers stood. How many blocks away would you like it? And who will purchase that derelict bldg from the Muslims group??? and what will be there in that desolated neighborhood instead of an attractive 12 story bldg??? The Sufi Muslims of Imam Rauf already pray at the old Burlington coat factory. Do you want them to stop? There are 100 or more mosques in Manhattan but there are so many different kinds of Islam that a lot of them would not be suitable for Sufi Muslims. Just as there are hundreds of Christian churches there, Lutheran, Baptist, Congregational, Episcopal, Catholic, etc etc not all of them would be suitable for us Catholics. By the way, Muslims pray in a special prayer room in the Pentagon. Are you opposed to that? And to all the areas on every military base where Muslims can pray and do?
The attorney Ted Olsen’s wife died in the plane that went down in PA. He supports the construction of the Muslim center, Park 51, as does one of the organizations of survivors of the terrorist attack. The black Republican political caucus in congress has reacted strongly to Republican opposition to this center. Don’t forget dozens of innocent Muslims died in the disaster.
Iman Rauf has been consulted by George Bush when president, the state dept who sought his help and the Pentagon where he was very helpful. I wish you would all read what the Imam had to say at the memorial for Daniel Pearl. He truly unified the Jewish, Christian and Muslim feeling. What he had to say after 9/11 is exactly the same as what was said in the Report on 9/11. It is also the same as what Glenn Beck had to say, with his black board where he listed all the the things the US had done to cause enmity in the Muslim world. Check out the video of that.
The mosque proposed in Staten Island, many miles away from ground zero, was hotly opposed and the mobs forced the Catholic church to rescind its offer to sell their empty church to the Muslims for the proposed mosque. Of course that led the church stuck with a derelict old church on their hands. Who else would buy it? Around the country there are scores of empty churches on the market. They felt lucky when the Muslims wanted to buy it but hatred forced them to remain stuck with an empty bldg. Please start sounding like Christians. I am so ashamed to hear the hatred of so-called people of God against other people of God. PACE

I would like it far enough away that the 9/11 survivors are comfortable with it. Several offer had been mades to assist in building a mosque further way and nobody has complained about a mosque itself being built, per se. Yet the supporters of this mosque continue to try to paint anybody who opposes the mosque being built this close to Ground Zero as being religious bigots. They also continue to assert that the 9/11 survivors just need to get over it and should have absolutely no ill feelings about Muslims.

 

[seekerz]

Another everybody who disagrees with me is a bigot post-with a little Christianity has been just as evil as Islam sprinkled in.

Surely, that’s not the best you can do.

 

[estesbob]

Surely, that’s not the best you can do.

That’s exactly what I was thinking when I read your post.

 

[seekerz]

I would like it far enough away that the 9/11 survivors are comfortable with it. Several offer had been mades to assist in building a mosque further way and nobody has complained about a mosque itself being built, per se. Yet the supporters of this mosque continue to try to paint anybody who opposes the mosque being built this close to Ground Zero as being religious bigots. They also continue to assert that the 9/11 survivors just need to get over it and should have absolutely no ill feelings about Muslims.

Most people I listen to do not paint all (only some) of the opposers as bigots. How far away will the 911 survivors be ‘comfortable’ with? Who speaks for the 911 survivors and are they all in agreement? I have seen at least 3 in the last few days (one a Muslim first responder), who publicly say that they have no problem with the mosque being where it is. Maybe we need to poll them first before purporting to speak for them…

As for the last part of your post, no one can tell someone how to grieve, but it is well documented that forgiveness is a great part of healing. Of course forgiveness can be seen as optional or impossible depending on one’s faith and one’s point of view… I’m not an expert on world religions but I can’t seem to find more than one that absolutely requires it.