Obama backs mosque near ground zero

[TheTrueCentrist]

The more I think about it, the less I like the analogy. I think a better one would be for the twin brother to be a lawyer and offer to handle her case pro-bono.

Oh, no! I see what the problem is. In the twins case, the source of conflict is the physical appearance. In the NY case it is the belief in Islam. It is tempting to say “in both cases they will argue that they the offender and the innocent are nothing alike.” That is to say, the twin is not a rapist and the Muslims not terrorists. Unfortunately that is not the real parallel. Strictly speaking the Muslims are saying that “the terrorists do not practice Islam” which is the same as the twin saying “I do not actually look like my rapist twin.”

 

[bbarrick8383]

Perfect! This is a pretty good analogy! I would say the answer to the question “should he move there” is the same as the answer to the question “is the woman willing to be reasonable?”

It is the same as in NY.

To me the second question would never occur in my thought process. As a man, if it were my brother, I would apologize to the young lady and leave to find another home. This is the same throught process that many of our fellow Americans are using right now. Why isn’t this Imam apologizing and offering to move the Mosque? From what I’ve heard he was offered 4 times what he paid for the building and refused.

The question “should he/they move/build there?” is viable in both scenarios.

The question “are she/they willing to be reasonable” however in my mind is not a viable question.

In my hypothetical scenario, if the man bought the house without regard to the womans feelings, most women would more than likely sell their house and leave. They would not want to come home and see the face of the man that raped her mowing his yard, or taking out the trash.

 

[TheTrueCentrist]

To me the second question would never occur in my thought process. As a man, if it were my brother, I would apologize to the young lady and leave to find another home. This is the same throught process that many of our fellow Americans are using right now. Why isn’t this Imam apologizing and offering to move the Mosque? From what I’ve heard he was offered 4 times what he paid for the building and refused.

The question “should he/they move/build there?” is viable in both scenarios.

The question “are she/they willing to be reasonable” however in my mind is not a viable question.

In my hypothetical scenario, if the man bought the house without regard to the womans feelings, most women would more than likely sell their house and leave. They would not want to come home and see the face of the man that raped her mowing his yard, or taking out the trash.

You’re right, I was short sighted in my assessment of that analogy. Please see my other posts on the topic.

 

[bbarrick8383]

Oh, no! I see what the problem is. In the twins case, the source of conflict is the physical appearance.

In the NY case it is the belief in Islam.

Yes, however that is only part of it. I’m not an expert on rape victims, but a woman may also have a degree of anger to all men. Which would be understandable, and hopefully she would want to get help with that part.

A wife who lost her husband in 9/11 may feel anger every time she hears the word Muslim or sees a mosque, and to that degree she needs to get help with that part. But a mosque in her face would not help mend those wounds at all. The imam wants to build bridges, but all he is doing is opening old wounds. And it is going to hurt his cause more than it will help it.

It is tempting to say “in both cases they will argue that they the offender and the innocent are nothing alike.”

Yes, but you are reopening the wounds of the victim. If you are the innocent brother or the mosque builder you need to ask yourself if it is worth it? Common decency would tell me no.

That is to say, the twin is not a rapist and the Muslims not terrorists. Unfortunately that is not the real parallel. Strictly speaking the Muslims are saying that “the terrorists do not practice Islam” which is the same as the twin saying “I do not actually look like my rapist twin.”

Not to me, the muslims saying “the terrorists do not practice Islam” would be the same as the twin saying “I am a decent human being who would never do such a thing”. But that wouldn’t take away the pain of seeing the mosque every time you went downtown to see the place where your spouse died would it?

According to some, she/they should just get over it. And I don’t see that happening for a long long time.

 

[TheTrueCentrist]

Yes, however that is only part of it. I’m not an expert on rape victims, but a woman may also have a degree of anger to all men. Which would be understandable, and hopefully she would want to get help with that part.

Correct, but does that mean that any man who moved in next to her would be insensitive? Does that mean that any man within a two block radius would be insensitive?

A wife who lost her husband in 9/11 may feel anger every time she hears the word Muslim or sees a mosque, and to that degree she needs to get help with that part. But a mosque in her face would not help mend those wounds at all. The imam wants to build bridges, but all he is doing is opening old wounds. And it is going to hurt his cause more than it will help it.

But at some point the victims will have to face their dislike of Muslims, just as the woman would have to face her anger at men. I think that there is no better way for this to happen than to have someone set a good example. The woman might get a very sensitive and caring male neighbour, and the victims could get a very peaceful Mosque. I’ve never said that accepting this Mosque would be easy, just that it is the right thing to do. Only children refuse to take medicine because it tastes bad.

 

[bbarrick8383]

Correct, but does that mean that any man who moved in next to her would be insensitive? Does that mean that any man within a two block radius would be insensitive?

No it would not, and it would not be his fault in any way. And nobody is blaming these muslims for wanting to build their mosque there. It’s the idea and the physical building and that is something the victims will hopefully learn to live with in their life.

But at some point the victims will have to face their dislike of Muslims, just as the woman would have to face her anger at men. I think that there is no better way for this to happen than to have someone set a good example. The woman might get a very sensitive and caring male neighbour, and the victims could get a very peaceful Mosque. I’ve never said that accepting this Mosque would be easy, just that it is the right thing to do. Only children refuse to take medicine because it tastes bad.

Yes, I agree.

But regardless of age you take your medicine in doses. You dont drink the whole bottle.

As I said before, if the Imam wants to build bridges he is going about a bad way of doing it. He has plenty of mosques in the area, there is no immediate need for this one. He should be working on an outreach program to those victims, a partnership with anyone he can get to rebuild the relationship between Americans(more specifically new yorkers) and Muslims. Only when he feels hes done all he can to get support from those victims whould he even think about building this mosque, and unfortunately for him it may not be in his lifetime. But he might go down in the books a little more honorable than he would otherwise.

Every time an American dies at the hands of a Muslim regardless of whether or not it is in the US or the middle east, that relationship gets a little more tense than it was before.

As an Okie, I could care less what New York does to be honest. I wish more yankees would feel the same about us Okies. But if my fellow countrymen oppose something going on in their state this strongly I will stand behind them 100 percent. If the majority of new yorkers supported it, I most likely would have never heard anything about it.

 

[bbarrick8383]

I’ve heard it discussed before, but I wasn’t sure.

Are non-muslims allowed to enter a mosque?

I think 100 million would be better spent on education rather than showing off. Most people are wondering what all this talk about sharia, why are muslim fathers shooting there own daughters and skipping the country and why was his brother so ruthless to the mother of those daughters, why is a muslim daughter afraid to date a non-muslim boy in this country, why am I constantly hearing about bombs going off and killing their fellow people, why are they still stoning people?

Americans have a million questions about islam and the only way they will ever get support for a mosque near the 9/11 site is if they spend some time answering those questions and convincing the average American that there is nothing to be afraid of.

 

[SedesDomi]

Based on Krauthammer’s selective use of the Carmelite example, one would logically conclude that the Catholic Church had decided it was not appropriate to build any center dedicated to prayer and understanding within, say, “two blocks of” (e.g.) the Auschwitz concentration camp. And, thus, when Bill O’Reilly, Glenn Beck, Rush Limbaugh, and every Fox News media host repeated this same example – viewers and listeners would draw the exact same conclusion: no Catholic prayer centers close to Auschwitz, no Muslim YMCA close to Ground Zero.

Easy enough, right? Wrong.

Unfortunately, like every other flash point in this ginned-up non-controversy controversy, Krauthammer’s deftly dropped factoid is – you guessed it – 100% false.

Not only is there a Catholic center for prayer and understanding within several blocks of the former Nazi gas chambers and torture cells at Auschwitz – not only was it put there with the blessing of Catholic leadership after the Carmelite controversy – but, and this is key: it is a wonderful place that achieves peaceful outcomes commensurate with those the planners of Park51 have proposed to bring to Manhattan…

Called the Center for Dialogue and Prayer in Oswiecim, it is located, according to its website, “On the Threshold of Auschwitz.” The center’s mission statement includes the following (emphasis mine):

The aim of the Centre, which in 1998 took the name of the Centre for Dialogue and Prayer in Auschwitz and was built in the neighbourhood of the Auschwitz concentration camp, is to create a place for reflection, education, sharing and prayer for all those who are moved by what happened here.

The Centre commemorates the victims and contributes to creating mutual respect, reconciliation, and peace in the world.

How close is this center to the Auschwitz camp?

According to Google Maps, the Catholic center for prayer and understanding at Auschwitz is 550 meters from the concentration camp perimeter…​

 

[Dale_M]

Here is the link to the article, which seems to be an opinion piece rather than news.
mediapolitics.info/jeffrey-feldman-lie-about-auschwitz-fuels-park51-hysteria/

The Carmelite nuns set up shop in a building which, although it was outside the perimeter of the concentration camp, had been used to store poison gas used at Auschwitz. Because the building was directly involved in the operations of the Nazi death camp, it is not comparable to the mosque which is proposed two blocks from Ground Zero because that site was not involved in the events of 9/11.

As the article mentions, Catholic prayer locations are located near Auschwitz. The proximity to the death camp was not the problem with the Carmelite nuns. The problem is that the nuns used one of the buildings involved in the Holocaust. The location of the proposed mosque, however, was not involved in 9/11.

 

[Via_Dolorosa]

Here is the link to the article, which seems to be an opinion piece rather than news.
mediapolitics.info/jeffrey-feldman-lie-about-auschwitz-fuels-park51-hysteria/

The Carmelite nuns set up shop in a building which had been used to store poison gas used at Auschwitz. Because the building was directly involved in the operations of the Nazi death camp, it is not comparable to the mosque which is proposed two blocks from Ground Zero.

As the article mentions, Catholic prayer locations are located near Auschwitz. The proximity to the death camp was not the problem with the Carmelite nuns. The problem is that the nuns used one of the buildings involved in the Holocaust. The location of the proposed mosque, however, was not involved in 9/11.

I say this with a smile on my face…Ron Christie said on one MSNBC show that the building the Muslems want to make into a community center was nicked by 9/11 and should be considered sacred. The Burlington coat Factory, which is the building in question, made no such claim. It’s starting to get ridiculous.

 

[InSearchofGrace]

What defenders are these? From what I understand, the (what I refer to as) “moderate muslims” are not in favor of building this mosque near ground zero. I guess you can’t lump them all together.

…

You’re right. Muslims can’t be lumped all together. There are Muslim notables who recently went on the record against the building of the Ground Zero mosque. Indeed, it was a breath of fresh air to see and hear the positions of Raheel Raza and Tarek Fatah of the Muslim Canadian Congress, and Dr. Zuhdi Jasser of AIFD. Now if Dr. Jasser could be the face and voice of Islam (he is against Islamism!). We would be having a different debate. But even Dr. Jasser indicated that many Muslims do not speak out in opposition to the mosque construction because there is widespread belief that to do so would be a sin, as it would be against building a house of worship. Changing beliefs and mindset is not easy …

I should have been more clear on my post. I was referring to defenders of Islam who are promoting sharia in the U.S. like the Imam Rauf and Dalia Mogahed (first Muslim female White House adviser). They condemn the 9/11 attack as committed by Muslims who were not followers of “true” Islam, and they see the proposed NYC mosque as the right thing to do.

 

[InSearchofGrace]

Just like a moderate Catholic will never disown the violence in the old testament.
boston.com/news/local/articles_of_faith/2009/03/scholar_compare.html

Not to make too fine a point, especially what is raised is OT, please read Mr. Raymond Ibrahim’s article, Are Judaism and Christianity as Violent as Islam?

It is a scholarly discourse as to why the violence in the Qu’ran is not comparable to the violence in the Old Testament, contrary to what your linked article posits. If you do not want to read the whole thing, just scroll down to the paragraph Bible v Qu’ran.

In addition, did you bother to read the comments posted on your linked article? Noticed that all eight are in disagreement with the author, with excellent rebuttals?

 

[DaveBj]

I linked to the Krauthammer piece on my Facebook page, but I made no personal reference to the Auschwitz part, because whatever the facts may be there, they are not relevant here, because Auschwitz is in Poland and New York is in the United States. The laws are different. He did point out, and correctly, that we wouldn’t allow a Japanese memorial at Pearl Harbor

I know that the proposed building is not on the WTC site. It is two blocks away. However, one can see the site (pun not intended) from there.

I also know that the proposed building is supposed to be a community center, not just a mosque. I don’t think that matters.

I also know that a number of Muslims (I have heard 300) were killed in the 9/11 events.

My personal feeling is that no Muslim mosque/community center should be built within immediate sight of Ground Zero, for two reasons: 1) It shows incredible insensitivity on the part of the Muslim community, and 2) if it is built, it will become a focal point for future hostility against Muslims.

DaveBj

 

[Teelynn]

I’ve heard it discussed before, but I wasn’t sure.

Are non-muslims allowed to enter a mosque?

I think 100 million would be better spent on education rather than showing off. Most people are wondering what all this talk about sharia, why are muslim fathers shooting there own daughters and skipping the country and why was his brother so ruthless to the mother of those daughters, why is a muslim daughter afraid to date a non-muslim boy in this country, why am I constantly hearing about bombs going off and killing their fellow people, why are they still stoning people?

Americans have a million questions about islam and the only way they will ever get support for a mosque near the 9/11 site is if they spend some time answering those questions and convincing the average American that there is nothing to be afraid of.

Good point. Americans aren’t really that well informed about Muslims or their culture and religion. We, as a country, haven’t gotten there yet. From what I know their culture and religion are interconnected. But I think Americans have learned not to TRUST. I think it all goes back to TRUST. And you could say that there might be some legitimacy there. The leaders of countries in the Middle East NEVER seem to speak the truth. They talk out of both sides of their mouths. At this point in time, that’s about all we have to go on. And the track record is not good.

 

[CatholicGerman]

None of this makes any sense. The original comparison was illogical, and this rebuttal completely misses the idiocy of the original comparison.

Putting a Japanese memorial at Pearl Harbor, or a mosque on Ground Zero, is a far cry from putting some Catholic building next to Auschwitz. Poland is a Catholic country. That’s like saying, “They put a Jewish temple in Tel Aviv.” or “They put a mosque in Tabuk.”

America is a secular country, so the situation here is completely different, and not comparable to most other countries.

 

[scipio337]

Ahhh, I noticed the part you (conveniently?) left out of the Glue-Huffing Post editorial (is this really news???) that basically accused Bishop Dolan of essentially “lying” in repeating the same sentiments…

…Enter The Archbishop
But it gets worse.

No less than Timothy Dolan, Archbishop of New York, is the latest high-profile person to take Krauthammer’s propaganda bait.

In a recent press conference, Dolan offered to “mediate” a solution (read: pressure the Park51 planners into moving their project) because the situation reminds him of – you guessed it – the Catholic church’s decision to move a prayer center away from Auschwitz.

From the August 18 article in the New York Times:

Speaking during an impromptu news conference at Covenant House, a Catholic shelter in Manhattan for homeless youth, Archbishop Dolan invoked the example of Pope John Paul II, who in 1993 ordered Catholic nuns to move from their convent at the former Auschwitz death camp after protests from Jewish leaders.

"He’s the one who said, ‘Let’s keep the idea, and maybe move the address,’ " the archbishop said. “It worked there; might work here.”

Once again, based on Dolan’s statement, any reader would logically conclude that, unlike the Park51 planners, the Church had disagreed in 1988 with the idea of putting a center so close to Auschwitz. In other words: Krauthammer’s lie.

The very existence of the Catholic Centre for Dialogue and Prayer in Auschwitz renders Dolan’s statement disingenuous at best. At worst it is more fuel for the right-wing anti-Islam hysteria fire. Happy Ramadan.
Why, one might ask, would one of the most powerful figures in the American Catholic clergy step into this anti-Muslim hysteria waving a lie?

**Maybe somebody on the Archbishop’s team is a regular viewer of Fox News? Maybe they all are? **

Then again, maybe Archbishop Dolan has never been to or heard of the Centre in Auschwitz?

Doubtful.

As it happens, in 2005 Dolan, then Archbishop of Milwaukee, participated in a trip to Auschwitz as part of an interfaith dialogue visit to Poland sponsored by the Sacred Heart University’s Center for Christian-Jewish Understanding.

While I was unable to locate a press photograph of Dolan standing in the Centre for Dialogue and Prayer during his 2005 visit to Auschwitz, it seems virtually impossible that such a high profile member of the Catholic clergy would not have visited–or at least been aware of–the most high-profile Catholic center near the camp. Then again, five years is a long time. Maybe his Excellency just forgot.

Whatever the case, the Archbishop of New York, **by virtue or keeping alive a slippery lie **about no Catholic centers close to Auschwitz, has now added his voice and his stature to the media melee converging with torches and pitchforks on the Park51 center like some lost scene from Boris Karloff’s Frankenstein.

The first logical fallacy I would point out was that the atrocities at Auschwitz were not carried out by people claiming to be motivated by the tenets of their Catholic faith (whether wrongfully interpreted, or not).

Begin the “Hitler was a Catholic” flame war!

2nd, I would still point out that the factual details of Krauthammer’s article, (and Biship Dolan’s statements) are still correct…

Carmelite nuns opened a convent near Auschwitz I in 1984. After some Jewish groups called for the removal of the convent, representatives of the Catholic Church agreed in 1987. One year later the Carmelites erected the large cross from the 1979 mass near their site, just outside Block 11, the notorious torture prison in Auschwitz I, visible from within the camp. The Catholic Church ordered the Carmelites to move by 1989…

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Auschwitz_cross

In effect, Jews at Auschwitz thought the convent innappropriate. Catholics agreed, and the convent was moved. Later, (in 1992, from what I can read) a prayer center was opened, further away from the Auschwitz camp. Red herring? Of course it is…

3rd, there was contention regarding the crosses due to the fact that several Catholic Poles were killed at Auschwitz (and I’m aware that many Muslims were also killed during 9/11), particularly Block 11, where the crosses were placed. To add to this, there are also 2 Catholic Saints, Saint Edith Stein, and Saint Maximilian Kolbe were martyred at Camp I with Kolbe actually being martyred at Auschwitz Block 11, where the crosses were placed. That being said, I found the crosses at this site insensitive:

http://www.scrapbookpages.com/Poland/Crosses/Cross04.jpg

Note now the cell of Saint Kolbe, inside the main Auschwitz camp (and the lack of crosses)

http://www.scrapbookpages.com/AuschwitzScrapbook/2005Photos/FatherKolbeCell.jpg

Do Muslims revere the 9/11 site because the Muslims who died are considered “martyrs”? No, and its a false analogy. …cont…

 

[scipio337]

4th, I notice a lack of demonization on the part of the left to the Jews who were opposed to the convent, or the crosses. Were Jewish protesters called “converging with torches and pitchforks”? Racists? Religious bigots? I somehow doubt it.

I think Jews were within their rights to view the convent, or crosses as “insensitive” where a vast majority of those killed were Jews.

I must be a Catholic bigot…

Just further proof that the 2nd favorite passtime of the left (right behind demonizing “the right”) is anti-Cathlicism.

Just look at those condescending comments of the Glue-Huffing Post:

Will someone please tell me that the Catholic church is not getting involved in something
so fictional as this controversy.
Do not they have their own house/church to clean out? Are they not losing members at an
alarming rate? Is not the Pope himself, a ‘former’ member of the Nazi Youth? Did not the
Pope himself have personal knowledge of his pedophile brothers? How many billions of
dollars are they being sued for? Crusades? Inquisition? Secrecy? Why do not they open up their libraries to scientists all over the world?

It would seem to me that these people (Catholics) should be the very LAST organization
chiming in with more lies, intolerance, and unconstitutional suggestions. It used to be a
revered sect of Christianity. Now they will not even let priests get married. Sounds pretty
unnatural to me.

Until Catholics have cleaned up their felony ridden house, they should shut up about
anything else.

…

…The Holocaust was an event that took place over a period of several years, with the complicity of the Catholic Church…

Wait, oh wait a minute Mr. Feldman. You are expecting facts, truth, justice, transparency or anything like logical consistency from the Catholic Church Heirarchy? Bwaaaa-hahahahahahahahaha! …The non-Catholic world has come to expect nothing but hypocrisy, avarice, lust and greed from the Catholic Church over the past millennium and a half. It is rare they disappoint us.

huffingtonpost.com/jeffrey-feldman/lie-about-auschwitz-fuels_b_688070.html

WOW. Just freaking Wow.

 

[Darryl1958]

Ahhh, I noticed the part you (conveniently?) left out of the Glue-Huffing Post editorial (is this really news???) that basically accused Bishop Dolan of essentially “lying” in repeating the same sentiments…

The first logical fallacy I would point out was that the atrocities at Auschwitz were not carried out by people claiming to be motivated by the tenets of their Catholic faith (whether wrongfully interpreted, or not).

Begin the “Hitler was a Catholic” flame war!

2nd, I would still point out that the factual details of Krauthammer’s article, (and Biship Dolan’s statements) are still correct…

Carmelite nuns opened a convent near Auschwitz I in 1984. After some Jewish groups called for the removal of the convent, representatives of the Catholic Church agreed in 1987. One year later the Carmelites erected the large cross from the 1979 mass near their site, just outside Block 11, the notorious torture prison in Auschwitz I, visible from within the camp. The Catholic Church ordered the Carmelites to move by 1989…

In effect, Jews at Auschwitz thought the convent innappropriate. Catholics agreed, and the convent was moved. Later, (in 1992, from what I can read) a prayer center was opened, further away from the Auschwitz camp. Red herring? Of course it is…

3rd, there was contention regarding the crosses due to the fact that several Catholic Poles were killed at Auschwitz (and I’m aware that many Muslims were also killed during 9/11), particularly Block 11, where the crosses were placed. To add to this, there are also 2 Catholic Saints, Saint Edith Stein, and Saint Maximilian Kolbe were martyred at Camp I with Kolbe actually being martyred at Auschwitz Block 11, where the crosses were placed. That being said, I found the crosses at this site insensitive:

http://www.scrapbookpages.com/Poland/Crosses/Cross04.jpg

Note now the cell of Saint Kolbe, inside the main Auschwitz camp (and the lack of crosses)

http://www.scrapbookpages.com/AuschwitzScrapbook/2005Photos/FatherKolbeCell.jpg

Do Muslims revere the 9/11 site because the Muslims who died are considered “martyrs”? No, and its a false analogy. …cont…
So Krauthammer’s ‘factoids’ was 100 % true. The OP is just another leftist smear campaign, in effect calling people who disagree with them liars.

 

[Darryl1958]

I linked to the Krauthammer piece on my Facebook page, but I made no personal reference to the Auschwitz part, because whatever the facts may be there, they are not relevant here, because Auschwitz is in Poland and New York is in the United States. The laws are different. He did point out, and correctly, that we wouldn’t allow a Japanese memorial at Pearl Harbor

I know that the proposed building is not on the WTC site. It is two blocks away. However, one can see the site (pun not intended) from there.

I also know that the proposed building is supposed to be a community center, not just a mosque. I don’t think that matters.

I also know that a number of Muslims (I have heard 300) were killed in the 9/11 events.

My personal feeling is that no Muslim mosque/community center should be built within immediate sight of Ground Zero, for two reasons: 1) It shows incredible insensitivity on the part of the Muslim community, and 2) if it is built, it will become a focal point for future hostility against Muslims.

DaveBj

Teh insensitivity shown by the Muslim advocates of this building have already given Muslims in America a black eye.

 

[SwizzleStick]

"They won’t build it! Hardhats vow not to work on controversial mosque near Ground Zero

A growing number of New York construction workers are vowing not to work on the mosque planned near Ground Zero."…

Entire article: nydailynews.com/ny_local/2010/08/20/2010-08-20_we_wont_build_it_hardhats_say_no_way_they_will_work_on_wtc_mosque.html