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TheTrueCentrist
Guest
You’re right! He does sum up the anti-Muslim sentiment rampant in this thread very well.
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Catherine_D
Guest
Since you raised the issue of desecration, does it bother you that the erection of this mosque is thought to be, by some, a desecration of the graves of those who died in the September 11 attacks? Because that is the sentiment in some quarters.No, there is no comparison. Some branches of Islam teach that depictions of Mohamed are wrong. Deliberately violating this is offensive. Would you as a Catholic be offended by deliberate desecration of the Eucharist? Yes you would.
The difference here is the Muslims have not deliberately transgressed any teaching–religious, social or otherwise. They were able to publicly plan for several months with no one batting an eyelash. Until you can prove me wrong by telling me why the mosque is insensitive I don’t think that the analogy holds water.
So while we’re talking about “sensitivity”, please be sensitive to that as well.
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TheTrueCentrist
Guest
The only reason that could happen is an error with youtube (try again later) or your flash player is out of date/broken/not installed (in which case re/install flash.) If you don’t want to install flash, then you’ll have to wait until HTML 5 comes out and supports direct video playback.That video will not play on my computer.
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TheTrueCentrist
Guest
Why is it a desecration? Shouldn’t the protesters also be protesting the strip clubs and gambling dens that are also in the area?Since you raised the issue of desecration, does it bother you that the erection of this mosque is thought to be, by some, a desecration of the graves of those who died in the September 11 attacks? Because that is the sentiment in some quarters.
So while we’re talking about “sensitivity”, please be sensitive to that as well.
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Catherine_D
Guest
I can’t answer for the sentiments of other people. Why would you ask me to? Does that even make sense? I am reporting what I have heard and read.Why is it a desecration? Shouldn’t the protesters also be protesting the strip clubs and gambling dens that are also in the area?
There are those who feel this way, that the mosque would be a desecration. Their views are at least as valid as those who wish to build the mosque. Are you saying that those that oppose the mosque are not entitled to their feelings? If so, on what basis?
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Catherine_D
Guest
Everything is up to date here. Apparently there is another problem.The only reason that could happen is an error with youtube (try again later) or your flash player is out of date/broken/not installed (in which case re/install flash.) If you don’t want to install flash, then you’ll have to wait until HTML 5 comes out and supports direct video playback.
And quite frankly, I am not persuaded by the claims of those who blame ME for the failure of technology. Usually it is the failure of technology. So I will not persue this. In fact, I find such claims offensive.
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TheTrueCentrist
Guest
So its a problem on youtube’s end. Its not unheard of, it was the first case I considered.Everything is up to date here. Apparently there is another problem.
And quite frankly, I am not persuaded by the claims of those who blame ME for the failure of technology. Usually it is the failure of technology. So I will not persue this. In fact, I find such claims offensive.
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TheTrueCentrist
Guest
Yes, in fact it is the core of the debate. If people are not governed by some underlying reason, then this is essentially a mob that has got it in their heads to run the Muslims out of town (or at least across town.)I can’t answer for the sentiments of other people. Why would you ask me to? Does that even make sense? I am reporting what I have heard and read.
There are those who feel this way, that the mosque would be a desecration. Their views are at least as valid as those who wish to build the mosque. Are you saying that those that oppose the mosque are not entitled to their feelings? If so, on what basis?
It could be worse, this “gut feeling” that Muslims don’t belong could very well be born out of prejudice against Muslims. Without some basis in reason, I don’t see why I should think any differently about the opposition.
They certainly are entitled to whatever opinion they wish, but I am also entitled to point out its shortcomings.
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Catherine_D
Guest
Fine, whatever. But I find claims of techie types that it’s MY problem and not their’s to be tiresome. Because usually it’s their problem, and not mine, and their patronizing attitude is not only offensive it’s also WRONG.So its a problem on youtube’s end. Its not unheard of, it was the first case I considered.
So I caution you to not emulate their patronizing and offensive position. Unless, of course, you choose to be patronizing and offensive. That’s obviously up to you.
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Alcrusader
Guest
I know that this post is between you and Catherine D, and I’m sorry for replying, but I’m really surprised how can you defend a racist system called Islam in the name of FREEDOM, and still manage to consider beating a women, putting womens always in 2sd position, honor killing, cutting the hand of thieves…etc. To be as Against FREEDOM.I don’t want to seem contrary - but the parts of the Shariah system you were talking about specifically - what western countries allow their husbands to beat their wives? What western countries allow honor killings? From what I understand what has been established in places in the UK are for civil law among Muslims, not criminal law - i.e. inheritance and nuisance neighbors.
With you Catherine I am willing to work to raise the lives of women around the country - and around the world - so that they too may chose to live as they wish. Blessings
Backing up a racist system in the name of FREEDOM, makes you part of those racists…
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Catherine_D
Guest
Are you serious? I can’t believe you are seriously posting this.Yes, in fact it is the core of the debate. If people are not governed by some underlying reason, then this is essentially a mob that has got it in their heads to run the Muslims out of town (or at least across town.)
It could be worse, this “gut feeling” that Muslims don’t belong could very well be born out of prejudice against Muslims. Without some basis in reason, I don’t see why I should think any differently about the opposition.
They certainly are entitled to whatever opinion they wish, but I am also entitled to point out its shortcomings.
No one has ever suggested this sort of thing.
I’m going to assume you are being sarcastic and dismiss it as such. I cannot believe anyone would seriously suggest such a thing.
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seekerz
Guest
No idea what you’re talking about. Is this becoming a pattern of responding to my posts just to not respond? I made it quite clear what I was talking about and I find it distasteful when people play gotcha games with the abortion issue; the watchword on life issues is respect.“People on the left support abortion because they hate babies”?
Interesting response since the residents of Manhattan as well as the NY mayor, have made their positions very clear. As for the survivors of 911 victims, if they truly are the ones spearheading this protest (I remain to be convinced that they are cohesive on this issue) then they must at least be clear (regarding an acceptable distance, among other things) and consistent (with regard to prayers/prayer houses near Ground Zero, the Pentagon, that field in Pennsylvania, the cemeteries where our Iraq and Afghanistan vets lie…). Unless of course you believe that the only victims of 911 died at Ground Zero, which of course would be rewriting history - but that’s a different story…The “distance of the mosque” isn’t for me to say. I’m not a New Yorker. I lost no family members during 9/11. I just support their public demonstration that they disapprove. I agree with President Obama. (that hurts) They have every right to build there. But given the reaction to building at that location, I’m not sure it will do much to foster interfaith dialougue, as was the stated intent.
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TheTrueCentrist
Guest
I just did suggest it. Why is it wrong?Are you serious? I can’t believe you are seriously posting this.
No one has ever suggested this sort of thing.
I’m going to assume you are being sarcastic and dismiss it as such. I cannot believe anyone would seriously suggest such a thing.
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TheTrueCentrist
Guest
Would you say, in general, that Muslims are more likely to be racist because of their beliefs?I know that this post is between you and Catherine D, and I’m sorry for replying, but I’m really surprised how can you defend a racist system called Islam in the name of FREEDOM, and still manage to consider beating a women, putting womens always in 2sd position, honor killing, cutting the hand of thieves…etc. To be as Against FREEDOM.
Backing up a racist system in the name of FREEDOM, makes you part of those racists…
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Catherine_D
Guest
You’re suggesting that the feeling among those of the 9/11 families who thinkthis mosque is a desecration of the graves of 9/11 victims (body parts are still being found by the way) is, in your words, some ““gut feeling” that Muslims don’t belong”.I just did suggest it. Why is it wrong?
I cannot believe that you are serious about this. The reaction on the part of the 9/11 families has nothing to do with whether Muslims belong in this country. It has to do with their loss of family members at the hands of people who killed them in the name of Allah. What part of that don’t you get? It is documented that they were killed in just that manner, has that escaped your notice? Can’t you understand why this would bother them?
No one is saying Muslims don’t belong in this country. Even numerous Muslims get that. To suggest that this is the reason someone would object to this project is wrong. Numerous MUSLIMS object to this project.
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seekerz
Guest
So let’s suppose I accept your theories for argument’s sake, how is moving the mosque going to solve any of that? Which brings me back to the confusion among mosque opponents that I referred to today.The original name for the mosque invoked “Cordoba”, which makes it, in fact, a “Victory Mosque”.
Second, Rauf’s purpose with this building, this cultural center, is to make it the headquarters for imposition of Shariah Law on the United States.
There is Jihad and there is “stealth Jihad”. Both are the mechanisms for bringing Shariah Law.
And this building is part of the campaign of stealth Jihad.
The current Constitution has “negative rights”, in that it limits government. The current administration has already stated that want government to have the freedom to do MORE. By changing the Constitution, the central government would then have the authority to impose more dictation from Washington. And that would be another necessary step toward imposing Shariah Law.
www.jihadwatch.org
centerforsecuritypolicy.org/index.xml
Don’t believe me; look it up for yourself.
Cordoba
Shariah or Sharia [phonetic spelling of the Arabic]
Google “stealth Jihad”
Many useful hits: youtube.com/watch?v=w10MhUiHO1g
amazon.com/Stealth-Jihad-Radical-Subverting-America/dp/1596985569/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1282683601&sr=8-1
If you don’t happen to have a personal stake in the controversy, then perhaps read a local newspaper:
nypost.com/
It is claimed by some that this is an issue of respecting sensitivities, but when I read your post it seems things have gone way beyond respect and into the realm of conspiracy theories, at least for those opponents who share your views.
So I ask again, is the real objective of the protest to get the mosque moved and if so, what (if anything) is that supposed to achieve? Will it for example halt the looming imposition of Sharia law that you seem to envisage?
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Mr_Skeptic
Guest
It boggles the mind, doesn’t it?Are you serious? I can’t believe you are seriously posting this.
No one has ever suggested this sort of thing.
I’m going to assume you are being sarcastic and dismiss it as such. I cannot believe anyone would seriously suggest such a thing.
The scary thing is - people like this truly believe that garbage. Either that, or, they’ve lowered the standards to the gutter and are playing something along the lines of a race card.
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TheTrueCentrist
Guest
Dismissing it does not invalidate my position.It boggles the mind, doesn’t it?
The scary thing is - people like this truly believe that garbage. Either that, or, they’ve lowered the standards to the gutter and are playing something along the lines of a race card.
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Mr_Skeptic
Guest
Equating everything Nazism doesn’t help your case.Dismissing it does not invalidate my position.
Sharia Law, by the way, is Nazism on steroids. Just thought I’d let you know.
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seekerz
Guest
Thanks.The height of the original towers.
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