Obama backs mosque near ground zero

[TheTrueCentrist]

You’re suggesting that the feeling among those of the 9/11 families who thinkthis mosque is a desecration of the graves of 9/11 victims (body parts are still being found by the way) is, in your words, some ““gut feeling” that Muslims don’t belong”.

I cannot believe that you are serious about this. The reaction on the part of the 9/11 families has nothing to do with whether Muslims belong in this country. It has to do with their loss of family members at the hands of people who killed them in the name of Allah. What part of that don’t you get? It is documented that they were killed in just that manner, has that escaped your notice? Can’t you understand why this would bother them?

No one is saying Muslims don’t belong in this country. Even numerous Muslims get that. To suggest that this is the reason someone would object to this project is wrong. Numerous MUSLIMS object to this project.

Muslims were also killed in the attacks. Why wouldn’t you allow the Muslim family members to have a religious center nearby?

Aside from that, you have arrived right back at the start of this cycle:
the terrorists and this center are related through religion (in this case Allah.) It doesn’t matter. The Muslims at the center are in total disagreement of the terrorists when it comes to religion. It is understandable that the families would make this mistake, but that is all the more reason the Mosque should be built, so that the misconceptions they have can be addressed.

1. Opposition group: The Islamic centre is insensitive.
2. Support group: Why is the Islamic centre insensitive?
3. Opposition group: Because those involved with the Islamic centre are Muslim, as were the 9/11 terrorists.
4. Support group: But those involved with the Islamic centre, along with the majority of other Muslims, have denounced the terrorists’ interpretation of Islam. Therefore equating the two groups because of religion is not reasonable.
5. Opposition group: But those involved with the Islamic centre have not proven they have not taken money from terrorists, nor can we be sure they do not sympathize with the terrorists.
6. Support group: No, but we have no reason to be suspicious. Why do you suspect the Muslims involved with the Islamic centre are lying about their beliefs and intentions?
7. Opposition group:
   a) Normal response: I’m not saying I don’t believe them, I am saying that if they wanted to be sensitive, they could build somewhere else.
   b) Prejudiced response: They are not being truthful because they are Muslims, we should be suspicious because Islam says x y and z. Discussion ended.
   c) Possible response (not yet observed): You are right, I guess it does not make sense to be offended by this mosque. Discussion ended.
   d) Possible response (observed, but evidence is insubstantial or anecdotal): no, here is substantial evidence that the centre is affiliated with terrorism. Discussion shifted to the validity of evidence.
8. Support group response to 7a: Why is the Islamic centre insensitive? (goto 3)

 

[seekerz]

There is another parallel.

The Battle of Lepanto.

The Christians did NOT sit back and allow the “Turks” [Musliims] to have free passage to do whatever they wanted.

Instead, the Christians massed the largest fleet in history and what followed was the largest naval battle in history.

Yes, yes, religious freedom is wonderful.

But not when the Muslim have as before hidden under the mask of religion and then used it as a pretext for conquest.

They’ve done it before.

Let us not allow them to do it again.

If they want to worship quietly, that is fine.

But no more Jihad, stealth or otherwise.

militaryhistory.about.com/od/navalbattles14011600/p/lepanto.htm

oce.catholic.com/index.php?title=Lepanto

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Lepanto

If they want to worship quietly…? What does that mean?

At least I have to hand it to you - you are honest about what you feel…no wrapping it up in bland niceties. If all the mosque opponents were as blunt, I’d probably be less confused about exactly what they are demanding and on what basis.

 

[TheTrueCentrist]

Equating everything Nazism doesn’t help your case.

Sharia Law, by the way, is Nazism on steroids. Just thought I’d let you know.

I have been incredibly forthcoming about my thought process and the only criticism you have is that I have associated your position with Nazism. This I can accept. I retract any and all statements I made relating 9/11 families to Nazis.

 

[seekerz]

They aren’t very complicated.

Imam Rauf and his supporters initially supported a position that no matter how offensive or hurtful this project might be, the right to such expression was sacrosanct.

Do you have a reference for that or is it your opinion? My impression is that the project went through all the right channels and was given a green light by all the necessary authorities and (even earned some words of encouragement on Fox) and the “bruised sensitivities” only became an issue later.

 

[seekerz]

This was just received from a friend, Chuck Muth, who has a public blog/Web e-letter:

News & Views subscriber [name deleted] weighed in on the so-called “Terror Mosque” brouhaha in New York this morning with a rather colorful perspective:

“They have a First Amendment right to build a mosque on their own property. I have a First Amendment right to draw a disrespectful picture of Mohammed. They say, ‘You must be sensitive to our feelings!’ But the would-be mosque builders have no concern for the feelings of most Americans. For them, sensitivity is a strictly one way street. If I lived in that area, I’d be feeding the pigeons bacon bits every day.”

Nice visual.

In a similar vein, our friend and Toledo, Ohio, talk-show host Brian Wilson sent us the following:

“There is a move afoot to counter the mosque that might be built a hundred yards from Ground Zero by opening a homosexual bar next to it. One act of tolerance deserves another, right? In fact, I’m looking at setting up the bar, a brothel, a dog boarding facility, a Southern-style BBQ and a donkey petting zoo…all within 100 yards of this so-called ‘mosque.’”

Potential names for the new gay bar being contemplated include: Turban Cowboys, Outfidels, Très Sheik, Infidelicious, JiHot!, Al-Gay-Da, Homohammed’s, The Ba’ath House, You Mecca Me Hot, Talibuns, and Ground Queero.

Vintage American response.

Frankly, I personally could go either way on this mosque mess. The Muslims have freedom of religion and property rights on their side; the Americans have the rights of free speech and association on theirs. As long as both sides are exercising their rights without violence or property damage (as is often the case involving labor union protests; but I digress), this will work itself out one way or the other in the end.

But then this came out Sunday in the Wall Street Journal:

“A leader of a planned Muslim community center near Manhattan’s Ground Zero compared opposition to the project to the persecution of Jews, in comments that could add to the controversy over the center’s proposed site. ‘We are deeply concerned, because this is like a metastasized antisemitism,’ said Daisy Khan, who is spearheading the project with her husband, Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf. ‘It’s beyond Islamophobia. It’s hate of Muslims.’”

Playing the “Jew card”? An American citizens can’t object to the proposed location of this project unless they “hate Muslims”? Scrw these people. Move your dmn mosque.

• Chuck Muth

So we hurl four letter words at people we are demanding respect for sensitivities from and that is supposed to achieve what exactly? Maybe they’ll repay our insults with kindness or turn the other cheek - no, wait they’re not the ones who preach that…

 

[pnewton]

Perhaps a better solution that something sinful next to the Mosque would be to do something similar to what happened when a porn shop opened up in a nearby town. The local Churches banned together and set up monitoring of who when in, including pictures, and published them Perhaps a similar situation would be appropriate. Since we know that the site was a target for Muslim terrorism, then starting monitoring the faces of all who enter, set up video and audio surveillance and be ready to report anything unusual.

 

[TheTrueCentrist]

Perhaps a better solution that something sinful next to the Mosque would be to do something similar to what happened when a porn shop opened up in a nearby town. The local Churches banned together and set up monitoring of who when in, including pictures, and published them Perhaps a similar situation would be appropriate. Since we know that the site was a target for Muslim terrorism, then starting monitoring the faces of all who enter, set up video and audio surveillance and be ready to report anything unusual.

That may actually be an acceptable course of action. It would placate the protesters long enough to get the thing built, and they would quickly lose interest once they realized it was just a boring old community center.

 

[TheTrueCentrist]

CBS news on the protests:
cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=6798552n

 

[Alcrusader]

There is another parallel.

The Battle of Lepanto.

The Christians did NOT sit back and allow the “Turks” [Musliims] to have free passage to do whatever they wanted.

Instead, the Christians massed the largest fleet in history and what followed was the largest naval battle in history.

Yes, yes, religious freedom is wonderful.

But not when the Muslim have as before hidden under the mask of religion and then used it as a pretext for conquest.

They’ve done it before.

Let us not allow them to do it again.

If they want to worship quietly, that is fine.

But no more Jihad, stealth or otherwise.

militaryhistory.about.com/od/navalbattles14011600/p/lepanto.htm

oce.catholic.com/index.php?title=Lepanto

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Lepanto

This is what I’m trying to say to all!
Don’t believe the lies of Islam!

 

[TheTrueCentrist]

Just who is the Imam behind this project?

Here is an excellent biography:

mediamatters.org/research/201008240027#rauf1

 

[seekerz]

You’re suggesting that the feeling among those of the 9/11 families who thinkthis mosque is a desecration of the graves of 9/11 victims (body parts are still being found by the way) is, in your words, some ““gut feeling” that Muslims don’t belong”.

I cannot believe that you are serious about this. The reaction on the part of the 9/11 families has nothing to do with whether Muslims belong in this country. It has to do with their loss of family members at the hands of people who killed them in the name of Allah. What part of that don’t you get? It is documented that they were killed in just that manner, has that escaped your notice? Can’t you understand why this would bother them?

No one is saying Muslims don’t belong in this country. Even numerous Muslims get that. To suggest that this is the reason someone would object to this project is wrong. Numerous MUSLIMS object to this project.

I find this a false argument. If Muslims belong in this country, they belong everywhere, even where it hurts people to have them. Otherwise they cannot be truly said to belong.

 

[seekerz]

Sensitivity and ‘understanding’ seems to be a one-way street.

I totally agree with you there. The operative word should be ‘mutual’. Unfortunately, once the shouting started, such words as sensitivity and understanding seem to have lost their meaning.

 

[Alcrusader]

for those who ask " how far is enough?", I tell them, you wanna play such game?
ok let’s play it, we are free to draw mohammad’s pictures, and make fun of it, and burn the koran and when some Muslim try to stop us or tell us: " What about our feelings?"
What should we tell him?

So how sensitive is enough ?

 

[TheTrueCentrist]

for those who ask " how far is enough?", I tell them, you wanna play such game?
ok let’s play it, we are free to draw mohammad’s pictures, and make fun of it, and burn the koran and when some Muslim try to stop us or tell us: " What about our feelings?"
What should we tell him?

So how sensitive is enough ?

Why stop there, lets do like the crusaders did: “kill them all, the LORD will know his own.”
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arnaud_Amalric

But seriously, you would be purposely violating their closely held beliefs. What beliefs of yours are they violating, and why didn’t anyone make those beliefs known several months ago when they started planning?

 

[seekerz]

for those who ask " how far is enough?", I tell them, you wanna play such game?
ok let’s play it, we are free to draw mohammad’s pictures, and make fun of it, and burn the koran and when some Muslim try to stop us or tell us: " What about our feelings?"
What should we tell him?

So how sensitive is enough ?

Ok, for the umteenth time today I am forced to express my confusion. For one, I thought this fight was NOT about religion and for another, has anyone in this debate burned the Bible or made fun of Christ’s picture?

You, in particular, need a cease and desist warning…

 

[Alcrusader]

Would you say, in general, that Muslims are more likely to be racist because of their beliefs?

Let’s use our logic…

The Koran is racist.
Supporting Islam => Support Koran.
Support Koran = Support racist system.
Therefore you are racist.

 

[TheTrueCentrist]

Let’s use our logic…

The Koran is racist.
Supporting Islam => Support Koran.
Support Koran = Support racist system.
Therefore you are racist.

So not only is that a yes, you believe that all Muslims are racist (at least, all the Muslims who support Islam and or the Koran.) I think that it is clear not all Muslims are racist, and that your position requires no further response.

 

[Pitcharan]

My brother in Christ, I know the teaching of Christ very well, but you see I only gonna accept a mosque is going to be build their if we gonna have a Church or Jewish temple build in Saudi Arabia…Please Some logic!

Why are you being so illogical? Granting US citizens their constitutional right should have nothing to do with what is happening elsewhere in the world that too in some undemocratic country.

 

[estesbob]

For anyone new, review this:

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheTrueCentrist forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_khaki/viewpost.gif
*1) Opposition group: The Islamic centre is insensitive.
2) Support group: You are a racist bigot
*3) Opposition group: Because those involved with the Islamic centre are Muslim, as were the 9/11 terrorists.
4) Support group: You are a racist bigot
5) Opposition group: But those involved with the Islamic centre have not proven they have not taken money from terrorists, nor can we be sure they do not sympathize with the terrorists.
6) Support groupYou are a racist bigot
7) Opposition group:
a) Normal response: I’m not saying I don’t believe them, I am saying that if they wanted to be sensitive, they could build somewhere else.
b) Prejudiced response: They are not being truthful because they are Muslims, we should be suspicious because Islam says x y and z. Discussion ended.
c) Possible response (not yet observed): You are right, I guess it does not make sense to be offended by this mosque. Discussion ended.
d) Possible response (observed, but evidence is insubstantial or anecdotal): no, here is substantial evidence that the centre is affiliated with terrorism. Discussion shifted to the validity of evidence.
8) Support group response to 7a:You are a racist bigot

 

[Alcrusader]

Why stop there, lets do like the crusaders did: “kill them all, the LORD will know his own.”
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arnaud_Amalric

ROFL !! So you suppose I’m a retarded dude that can’t see the difference between a horse and a pig?

But seriously, you would be purposely violating their closely held beliefs. What beliefs of yours are they violating, and why didn’t anyone make those beliefs known several months ago when they started planning?

Who don’t GIVE FREEDOM, Doesn’t deserve FREEDOM.

Until Islam start giving freedom to us Christians], I don’t think they deserve a freedom to be given.