Obama backs mosque near ground zero

[tjm190]

Namely, because Japanese did not station troops in “the land of the two Holy Mosques”.

pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/binladen/who/interview.html

But I would also point out the alarmingly low amount of Shinto and Buddhist acts of terrorism against the US, given our much longer and larger military presenses in Japan and South Korea.

Last time I checked, having non-Muslims barred from Islamic holy sites is a belief pretty exclusive to Islam.

Interesting, interesting… So they are unhappy that we have troops in their homeland. Is that an unreasonable thing to be upset about? Would you like to be occupied by a foreign power, regardless of whether or not it is buddy-buddy with your oppressive government?

 

[tomarin]

I’m not assuming anything. They are protesting you know.

I keep coming across allegations that they have made their unanimous opposition to the mosque crystal clear but I haven’t seen any evidence of it. There were a lot of victims on 9/11 and therefore a lot of surviving families so that alone makes me question whether they’re all dead-set against it.

I’ve seen media reports of protests (notably at the zoning commission hearing) but nothing that identifies the protesters as victims’ families.

However, 19 Muslims were responsible for the attacks.

And people have done wicked things in the name of Christ but that doesn’t mean all Christians should be punished for it in the name of “sensitivity.”

 

[iamrefreshed]

“What one Christian does is his own responsibility, what one Jew does is thrown back at all Jews”- Anne Frank

A slightly modified version of the quote applies here.

My point in stating that was a tongue-in-cheek response to Tomarin’s strawman.

 

[tomarin]

My point in stating that was a tongue-in-cheek response to Tomarin’s strawman.

I still don’t understand how I’m making a strawman argument. Can someone explain that to me?

If you don’t believe that these particular Muslims are somehow responsible for the 9/11 attacks, then it isn’t reasonable to ask them to move their planned mosque. Agree or disagree?

 

[TheTrueCentrist]

I guess “sensitivity” is not a term you can understand through words…only through your heart will it make sense to you. I do say this with all due respect.

Good! You’ve taken a position. Now we can evaluate it.

Lets say that sensitivity really cannot be understood by words. You therefore cannot reason about it, it is therefore unreasonable. Haha, but that trivializes your point. The real problem with that claim is that sentiments such as “sensitivity” which lie exclusively in the domain of the “heart” are notorious for being fickle and unfair. It was “heart centred” reasoning which lead to things like Jim Crow laws. People “just knew in their hearts” that whites should be separate from blacks. Did it matter that such separation was racist? “Oh, no, I’m not racist, it just feels right for blacks to be separate.”

Further, sensitivity is a two way street. Have you considered how insensitive it is for people to suggest that the Muslims at the Islamic center are affiliated with terrorists? You claim I have not put myself in the shoes of a 9/11 victim, I contend you have not thought about how these Muslim-Americans are being made to feel.

Lets say that I am a Muslim. I think to myself: What can I do to to improve understanding after and offer an apology for the terrorist attacks? Aha! I should build an Islamic centre where people can come and learn that Islam strongly condemns these attacks, and is dedicated to peace [improved understanding.] Not only that, it will improve the community by providing recreational facilities open to the public! [offer condolences] However, once I get to work enacting this plan, I am met with opposition. Why?

“Because it is insensitive”

Why is it insensitive?

-]“Because it was YOUR religion that inspired the terrorist attacks”/-]
“Because I say so”

-]No!/-] But the reason I wanted to build the centre was to show everyone that the terrorists do not represent Islam!

“We don’t care what you have to say, we are going to assume you are being purposefully insensitive and are lying about your real intentions”

How should I, as a Muslim respond to this? It seems to me that I should be deeply offended by the allegations that, as a Muslim, I am somehow deviously plotting to offend, gloat, harbour terrorists, or do anything other than my stated intentions.

The Muslims are not “fighting back” they are defending themselves against overt anti-Islamic sentiment.

 

[iamrefreshed]

I was waiting for this response. The WBC is different because they actually preach hate. In this way we know that their protests are not merely an expression of their free speech, but also harassment of the groups they hate. In the case of the Islamic center there has been no expression of hate. In fact they have preached exactly the opposite.

That is all your opinion. Just like the opinions of families of 9/11 victims.

They have the right to protest as they do.

I’ll ask again…Do you find it insensitive?

Would you ask them to stop?

 

[JulieAA]

Good! You’ve taken a position. Now we can evaluate it.

Lets say that sensitivity really cannot be understood by words. You therefore cannot reason about it, it is therefore unreasonable. Haha, but that trivializes your point. The real problem with that claim is that sentiments such as “sensitivity” which lie exclusively in the domain of the “heart” are notorious for being fickle and unfair. It was “heart centred” reasoning which lead to things like Jim Crow laws. People “just knew in their hearts” that whites should be separate from blacks. Did it matter that such separation was racist? “Oh, no, I’m not racist, it just feels right for blacks to be separate.”

Further, sensitivity is a two way street. Have you considered how insensitive it is for people to suggest that the Muslims at the Islamic center are affiliated with terrorists? You claim I have not put myself in the shoes of a 9/11 victim, I contend you have not thought about how these Muslim-Americans are being made to feel.

Are you saying that because I do not agree with your statement denotes that I am a racist? If you believe that, may I correct you with… ABSOLUTELY NOT!

That is plainly out of touch…my father was murdered by 2 black men when I was a child. Do I blame all black men for what these two people did to my family…absolutely not! Do I have pain in my heart for my loss?..yes, I do and that is the human part of me. Did God carry me through this pain?..yes! Is the pain still there?..yes, it is; however, in my “heart” I know I can not blame all people of color and they are NOT responsible for the death of my father…case closed.

 

[TheTrueCentrist]

That is all your opinion. Just like the opinions of families of 9/11 victims.

They have the right to protest as they do.

I’ll ask again…Do you find it insensitive?

Would you ask them to stop?

I find it insensitive. Why is it insensitive? Because they overtly preach hate. Do they have a right to tell people God hates them? Yes they do.

Maybe you are asking “why is preaching hate insensitive?” I think the answer is clear, someone who hates will, practically by definition, not care about the sensibilities of those he hates.

Could you lay out your opposition to the Islamic centre this neatly?

 

[scipio337]

Interesting, interesting… So they are unhappy that we have troops in their homeland. Is that an unreasonable thing to be upset about? Would you like to be occupied by a foreign power, regardless of whether or not it is buddy-buddy with your oppressive government?

HE is unhappy with our military presense on what he considers a Holy Site. Note: Jews, Christians, and other faiths do not share the vision of the Arabian Penninsula as a holy “Land of the Two Mosques”. Unhappiness with a foriegn military presense isn’t exclusive to the US, but the Islamist reaction is.

We have a military presense, both presently and historically, with countries far poorer than Saudi Arabia, so what’s the motivation? Salafi/Wahhabi interpretation of Islam.

 

[iamrefreshed]

I find it insensitive. Why is it insensitive? Because they overtly preach hate. Do they have a right to tell people God hates them? Yes they do.

Maybe you are asking “why is preaching hate insensitive?” I think the answer is clear, someone who hates will, practically by definition, not care about the sensibilities of those he hates.

Could you lay out your opposition to the Islamic centre this neatly?

What makes you assume this is neat?

 

[TheTrueCentrist]

Are you saying that because I do not agree with your statement denotes that I am a racist? If you believe that, may I correct you with… ABSOLUTELY NOT!

That is plainly out of touch…my father was murdered by 2 black men when I was a child. Do I blame all black men for what these two people did to my family…absolutely not! Do I have pain in my heart for my loss?..yes, I do and that is the human part of me. Did God carry me through this pain?..yes! Is the pain still there?..yes, it is; however, in my “heart” I know I can not blame all people of color and they are NOT responsible for the death of my father…case closed.

Please calm down. I am saying that without a solid reason, opposition to the Islamic centre sounds prejudiced against Muslims. It may be that my reasoning is flawed and there is a good reason to oppose the centre, but I have not heard it yet. If my reasoning is correct, it may be the case that opponents simply did not realize what they were saying was prejudiced, in which case all they have to do is say “oh no! I didn’t think of it that way! I guess the Islamic centre is fine.” What is not acceptable is persisting in opposition to the Islamic centre without being able to formulate a non-prejudiced reason for doing so.

 

[scipio337]

I still don’t understand how I’m making a strawman argument. Can someone explain that to me?

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=6963929&postcount=421

tomarin:

If you don’t believe that these particular Muslims are somehow responsible for the 9/11 attacks, then it isn’t reasonable to ask them to move their planned mosque. Agree or disagree?

Because, as I’ve tied to point out, whether this imam agrees with their particluar interpretation of Islam or not, the impetus behind behind the 9/11 attacks was Islam. People find that insensitive, especially when the stated purpose of the community center is to somehow build trust.

You may question that people find the location to be insensitive, and disagree with them, but you seem to be questioning their motivation.

 

[TheTrueCentrist]

What makes you assume this is neat?

It is 3 lines instead of 30 pages.

 

[iamrefreshed]

It is 3 lines instead of 30 pages.

So? Because you were brief you think it’s clear?

 

[iamrefreshed]

I find it insensitive. STOP

You can tell me all your reasons why you find it insensitive but if I can’t experience them how do I know?

What does a banana taste like?

 

[JulieAA]

Please calm down. I am saying that without a solid reason, opposition to the Islamic centre sounds prejudiced against Muslims. It may be that my reasoning is flawed and there is a good reason to oppose the centre, but I have not heard it yet. If my reasoning is correct, it may be the case that opponents simply did not realize what they were saying was prejudiced, in which case all they have to do is say “oh no! I didn’t think of it that way! I guess the Islamic centre is fine.” What is not acceptable is persisting in opposition to the Islamic centre without being able to formulate a non-prejudiced reason for doing so.

I am completely calm and at peace, so I do not know where that came from…?

Maybe you should be asking the victims’ family members your question.

 

[estesbob]

Please calm down. I am saying that without a solid reason, opposition to the Islamic centre sounds prejudiced against Muslims. It may be that my reasoning is flawed and there is a good reason to oppose the centre, but I have not heard it yet. If my reasoning is correct, it may be the case that opponents simply did not realize what they were saying was prejudiced, in which case all they have to do is say “oh no! I didn’t think of it that way! I guess the Islamic centre is fine.” What is not acceptable is persisting in opposition to the Islamic centre without being able to formulate a non-prejudiced reason for doing so.

It has been explained to you time and time again. And your response time and time again that he is that people are not entitled their feelings(unless they agree with yours) and that people who disagree with you are racists.

 

[estesbob]

I have been trying to figure out why this thread seem so very familiar in that this is a fairly recent dispute. Then it came to me-the arguments being given by the mosque apologists are the exact same arguments used by those justifying flying the Confederate flag on state capitols. They just cannot imagine why anybody would be offended.

 

[JulieAA]

I have been trying to figure out why this thread seem so very familiar in that this is a fairly recent dispute. Then it came to me-the arguments being given by the mosque apologists are the exact same arguments used by those justifying flying the Confederate flag on state capitols. They just cannot imagine why anybody would be offended.

Good point! It is hard to comprehend why this appears to be so difficult to understand.

 

[iamrefreshed]

I have been trying to figure out why this thread seem so very familiar in that this is a fairly recent dispute. Then it came to me-the arguments being given by the mosque apologists are the exact same arguments used by those justifying flying the Confederate flag on state capitols. They just cannot imagine why anybody would be offended.

Excellent analogy Bob!