Obama backs mosque near ground zero

[TheTrueCentrist]

Because, as I’ve tied to point out, whether this imam agrees with their particluar interpretation of Islam or not, the impetus behind behind the 9/11 attacks was Islam. People find that insensitive, especially when the stated purpose of the community center is to somehow build trust.

You may question that people find the location to be insensitive, and disagree with them, but you seem to be questioning their motivation.

This is a subtle, but somewhat valid, distinction. Lets discuss.

Firstly: the motivations for the organization of the terrorist attacks were political. The terrorists were responding to injustices (real and perceived) inflicted on their community by the US. They wanted to retaliate, and twisted the teachings of Islam to not only allow their planned action but also sanctify them.

Here, then, is my own subtle distinction. The attacks were not motivated by Islam. The terrorists did not say “I am attacking the US because of my interpretation of Islam.” but rather “I am attacking the US because of its injustices, and my interpretation of Islam will sanctify my attack.”

Secondarily: if people are worried that seeing a mosque will make them think of Islam, which will in turn remind them of 9/11 (which is distressing), shouldn’t the Muslims build their mosque closer to ground zero? If people are at ground zero, they will be reminded of 9/11 by the site itself, and seeing a mosque will not be responsible for calling to mind the attacks.

 

[tomarin]

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=6963929&postcount=421

I’m not sure I understand what you’re saying there.

Because, as I’ve tied to point out, whether this imam agrees with their particluar interpretation of Islam or not, the impetus behind behind the 9/11 attacks was Islam. People find that insensitive, especially when the stated purpose of the community center is to somehow build trust.

People do wicked things in the name of religion all the time. The normal response is to blame not the religion, but the fanatics. At least that’s what I do when it comes to Christianity.

It seems to me you’re saying it’s perfectly fine to do this (i.e. blame the religion, not the fanatics) to the Cordoba House muslims. But you deny that you’re ascribing blame to them. I can’t figure out how to reconcile these two statements.

 

[TheTrueCentrist]

You can tell me all your reasons why you find it insensitive but if I can’t experience them how do I know?

What does a banana taste like?

I didn’t tell you to feel the same way, but rather explained why the WBC is insensitive. Was there anything wrong with my explanation? Or are you suggesting that I do not actually find the WBC insensitive?

 

[iamrefreshed]

Secondarily: if people are worried that seeing a mosque will make them think of Islam, which will in turn remind them of 9/11 (which is distressing), shouldn’t the Muslims build their mosque closer to ground zero? If people are at ground zero, they will be reminded of 9/11 by the site itself, and seeing a mosque will not be responsible for calling to mind the attacks.

We need a ‘pass out’ emoticon.

 

[JulieAA]

This is a subtle, but somewhat valid, distinction. Lets discuss.

Firstly: the motivations for the organization of the terrorist attacks were political. The terrorists were responding to injustices (real and perceived) inflicted on their community by the US. They wanted to retaliate, and twisted the teachings of Islam to not only allow their planned action but also sanctify them.

Here, then, is my own subtle distinction. The attacks were not motivated by Islam. The terrorists did not say “I am attacking the US because of my interpretation of Islam.” but rather “I am attacking the US because of its injustices, and my interpretation of Islam will sanctify my attack.”

Secondarily: if people are worried that seeing a mosque will make them think of Islam, which will in turn remind them of 9/11 (which is distressing), shouldn’t the Muslims build their mosque closer to ground zero? If people are at ground zero, they will be reminded of 9/11 by the site itself, and seeing a mosque will not be responsible for calling to mind the attacks.

I guess I am not the brightest bulb on the block, so maybe you can clarify something for me. Why is it so important to build this mosque in this particular place when the muslim community know first hand how hurtful this is to the 911 families?

 

[scipio337]

This is a subtle, but somewhat valid, distinction. Lets discuss.

Firstly: the motivations for the organization of the terrorist attacks were political. The terrorists were responding to injustices (real and perceived) inflicted on their community by the US. They wanted to retaliate, and twisted the teachings of Islam to not only allow their planned action but also sanctify them.

But Islam is a polity, and a faith. I know, I know, “but that’s not Islam”. Muslims have somehow used Islam as a means to a political ends since Mohammed dispelled the Quraysh from Meccah.

TheTrueCentrist:

Here, then, is my own subtle distinction. The attacks were not motivated by Islam. The terrorists did not say “I am attacking the US because of my interpretation of Islam.” but rather “I am attacking the US because of its injustices, and my interpretation of Islam will sanctify my attack.”

And my distinction would be it is (some of) Islam alone that holds the tenet that non-Muslims are not welcome on Muslim lands (while banning non-Muslims from Mecca and Medina is accepted by Muslims worldwide). If there was no Islamic belief, misinterpreted or not, that non-Muslims are inherently inferior, that a stretch of desert in the Near East is somehow off limits to those who belive differently, what’s the beef?

TheTrueCentrist:

Secondarily: if people are worried that seeing a mosque will make them think of Islam, which will in turn remind them of 9/11 (which is distressing), shouldn’t the Muslims build their mosque closer to ground zero? If people are at ground zero, they will be reminded of 9/11 by the site itself, and seeing a mosque will not be responsible for calling to mind the attacks.

I’m not quite sure of your point. A community center/mosque will remind people of the perpetrators of 9/11, and their religious motives (misinterpreted or not).

 

[iamrefreshed]

I didn’t tell you to feel the same way, but rather explained why the WBC is insensitive. Was there anything wrong with my explanation? Or are you suggesting that I do not actually find the WBC insensitive?

No, you were clear. You want someone to stop a perfectly legal action because of the sensitivity of others.

Just like the 9/11 families.

 

[TheTrueCentrist]

Good point! It is hard to comprehend why this appears to be so difficult to understand.

Flying the confederate flag on a government building is offensive because:

1. The confederacy represents a rejection of the North, it could therefore be offensive to Northerners.
2. The confederacy represents protection of slavery, it would therefore be offensive to African-Americans.
3. The confederacy celebrates the division of the country, it would therefore be offensive to patriots.

I can’t say I know too much about modern day confederates, so unless they have completely changed their position on all those issues, it would be offensive. Can anyone lay out their reason why this Mosque is insensitive?

 

[estesbob]

The attacks were not motivated by Islam. The terrorists did not say “I am attacking the US because of my interpretation of Islam.” but rather “I am attacking the US because of its injustices, and my interpretation of Islam will sanctify my attack.”

.

[t]he ruling to kill the Americans and their allies civilians and military - is an individual duty for every** Muslim** who can do it in any country in which it is possible to do it, in order to liberate the al-Aqsa Mosque (in Jerusalem) and the holy mosque (in Makka) from their grip, and in order for their armies to move out of all the lands of** Islam**, defeated and unable to threaten any Muslim. This is in accordance with the words of Almighty Allah, 'and fight the pagans all together as they fight you all together,’ and ‘fight them until there is no more tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in Allah’.[37][38]

Osam Bib Ladin

The Americans should know that the storm of plane attacks will not abate, with God’s permission. There are thousands of the Islamic nation’s youths who are eager to die just as the Americans are eager to live.[55]

Al;-Quedas response to the attackas

we calculated in advance the number of casualties from the enemy, who would be killed based on the position of the tower. We calculated that the floors that would be hit would be three or four floors. I was the most optimistic of them all…We had notification since the previous Thursday that the event would take place that day. We had finished our work that day and had the radio on…Muhammad (Atta) from the Egyptian family (meaning the al-Qaeda Egyptian group), was in charge of the group…The brothers, who conducted the operation, all they knew was that they have a martyrdom operation and we asked each of them to go to America but they didn’t know anything about the operation, not even one letter. But they were trained and we did not reveal the operation to them until they are there and just before they boarded the planes.[68]
In late November

Osam Bib Ladin

 

[scipio337]

…Can anyone lay out their reason why this Mosque is insensitive?

Already have.

 

[estesbob]

Flying the confederate flag on a government building is offensive because:

1. The confederacy represents a rejection of the North, it could therefore be offensive to Northerners.
2. The confederacy represents protection of slavery, it would therefore be offensive to African-Americans.
3. The confederacy celebrates the division of the country, it would therefore be offensive to patriots.

I can’t say I know too much about modern day confederates, so unless they have completely changed their position on all those issues, it would be offensive. Can anyone lay out their reason why this Mosque is insensitive?

You make my point.

 

[TheTrueCentrist]

No, you were clear. You want someone to stop a perfectly legal action because of the sensitivity of others.

Just like the 9/11 families.

I find it insensitive. Why is it insensitive? Because they overtly preach hate. Do they have a right to tell people God hates them? Yes they do.

Maybe you are asking “why is preaching hate insensitive?” I think the answer is clear, someone who hates will, practically by definition, not care about the sensibilities of those he hates.

Could you lay out your opposition to the Islamic centre this neatly?

I must have missed the part where I asked them to stop.

 

[iamrefreshed]

Can anyone lay out their reason why this Mosque is insensitive?

Because many of the families of those who died said so.

Why is that so hard for you to understand. You don’t get to judge someone elses feelings.

That said, the mosque builders are perfectly in their rights to build.

 

[tomarin]

I guess I am not the brightest bulb on the block, so maybe you can clarify something for me. Why is it so important to build this mosque in this particular place when the muslim community know first hand how hurtful this is to the 911 families?

I don’t think they knew beforehand that this would create a firestorm of controversy, and they will probably back out of it, out of fear.

The geography of this neighborhood (where I work) is such that, hard as it might be to understand for people from the rest of the country, two blocks is considered far away enough that the potential for symbolism was lost on them.

I don’t think they feel responsible for what Osama bin Laden did in the name of Islam, even though they are Muslims. I think they would deny that his brand of Islam is authentic Islam. They might even find this a self-evident truth.

So I think they’re most likely guilty of obtuseness rather than the things they’ve been accused of. (I may be guilty of the same – I’ve been surprised at the reaction this has provoked.)

 

[scipio337]

The reasoning for bin Laden’s attack:

O you who believe! the idolaters are nothing but unclean, so they shall not approach the Sacred Mosque after this year; and if you fear poverty then Allah will enrich you out of His grace if He please; surely Allah is Knowing Wise.
—Qur’an, Sura 9 At-Tawba, ayah 28

Bin Laden belives anywhere on the Arabian penninsula is “too close”. Rauf might disagree, and limit non-beleivers to the Mecca city limits. Both are Islamic views.

 

[TheTrueCentrist]

[t]he ruling to kill the Americans and their allies civilians and military - is an individual duty for every** Muslim** who can do it in any country in which it is possible to do it, in order to liberate the al-Aqsa Mosque (in Jerusalem) and the holy mosque (in Makka) from their grip, and in order for their armies to move out of all the lands of** Islam**, defeated and unable to threaten any Muslim. This is in accordance with the words of Almighty Allah, 'and fight the pagans all together as they fight you all together,’ and ‘fight them until there is no more tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in Allah’.[37][38]

Osam Bib Ladin

The Americans should know that the storm of plane attacks will not abate, with God’s permission. There are thousands of the Islamic nation’s youths who are eager to die just as the Americans are eager to live.[55]

Al;-Quedas response to the attackas

we calculated in advance the number of casualties from the enemy, who would be killed based on the position of the tower. We calculated that the floors that would be hit would be three or four floors. I was the most optimistic of them all…We had notification since the previous Thursday that the event would take place that day. We had finished our work that day and had the radio on…Muhammad (Atta) from the Egyptian family (meaning the al-Qaeda Egyptian group), was in charge of the group…The brothers, who conducted the operation, all they knew was that they have a martyrdom operation and we asked each of them to go to America but they didn’t know anything about the operation, not even one letter. But they were trained and we did not reveal the operation to them until they are there and just before they boarded the planes.[68]
In late November

Osam Bib Ladin

Yes, it is tricky because they claim the US is attacking Islam. However their reason is still “The US is attacking us” I think there is probably a link from the wiki entry on responsibility to the wiki entry on “motives” which would be a much clearer source if you were interested in their motives.

 

[TheTrueCentrist]

Because many of the families of those who died said so.

Why is that so hard for you to understand. You don’t get to judge someone elses feelings.

That said, the mosque builders are perfectly in their rights to build.

Were you not suggesting earlier that you yourself are a survivor? Your above statement is then circular, it amounts to “it is offensive because I say so.”

You are within your rights to feel however you want, but why do you feel justified in inconveniencing Muslims just because you feel like it.

I’m not over it.

I still get depressed in the days leading up to the anniversary.
I still get the nightmares.
I can still close my eyes and see the second plane striking the tower.
I still seeing the jumpers fleeing fire for certain death.
I still hear a co-worker screaming, “Oh my God it’s falling” when the first tower fell.
I still remember people shoving into elevators.
I still can hear the F-16’s screaming at rooftop level.
I still remember being trapped for the day not knowing if more was coming.
I can still remember the train ride home with dust covered people.
I still see my wife and childrens tear streaked faces when I finally made it home.

Please, tell me how to “get over it”?

And if you can’t, maybe your mosque builder can?

Edited to add:

And I’m lucky, I came home.

 

[tjm190]

HE is unhappy with our military presense on what he considers a Holy Site. Note: Jews, Christians, and other faiths do not share the vision of the Arabian Penninsula as a holy “Land of the Two Mosques”. Unhappiness with a foriegn military presense isn’t exclusive to the US, but the Islamist reaction is.

We have a military presense, both presently and historically, with countries far poorer than Saudi Arabia, so what’s the motivation? Salafi/Wahhabi interpretation of Islam.

Occupation of holy land as justification for war- now where have I seen this before…

Furthermore, just about EVERYONE fights when they are under occupation- it’s not a religious thing.

 

[tjm190]

The reasoning for bin Laden’s attack:

Bin Laden belives anywhere on the Arabian penninsula is “too close”. Rauf might disagree, and limit non-beleivers to the Mecca city limits. Both are Islamic views.

Idolators≠Christians or Jews.

 

[TheTrueCentrist]

You make my point.

… Your point being that sometimes people oppose things because they are insensitive? That was never the subject of discussion. The question I need answered is "why is the Islamic centre insensitive."

For a while I heard “because they are Muslims and Muslims attacked us.” Then I posted the summary below, and all I’ve gotten since is “its insensitive because we feel like it is” In which case I have to ask: why do you feel that way?

1. Opposition group: The Islamic centre is insensitive.
2. Support group: Why is the Islamic centre insensitive?
3. Opposition group: Because those involved with the Islamic centre are Muslim, as were the 9/11 terrorists.
4. Support group: But those involved with the Islamic centre, along with the majority of other Muslims, have denounced the terrorists’ interpretation of Islam. Therefore equating the two groups because of religion is not reasonable.
5. Opposition group: But those involved with the Islamic centre have not proven they have not taken money from terrorists, nor can we be sure they do not sympathize with the terrorists.
6. Support group: No, but we have no reason to be suspicious. Why do you suspect the Muslims involved with the Islamic centre are lying about their beliefs and intentions?
7. Opposition group:
   a) Normal response: I’m not saying I don’t believe them, I am saying that if they wanted to be sensitive, they could build somewhere else.
   b) Prejudiced response: They are not being truthful because they are Muslims, we should be suspicious because Islam says x y and z. Discussion ended.

c) Possible response (not yet observed): You are right, I guess it does not make sense to be offended by this mosque. Discussion ended.
d) Possible response (observed, but evidence is insubstantial or anecdotal): no, here is substantial evidence that the centre is affiliated with terrorism. Discussion shifted to the validity of evidence.
8) Support group response to 7a: Why is the Islamic centre insensitive? (goto 3)