Obama plans push for immigration reform

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But apparently I have much wider experience in the world than our good bishops. No bloc, no diverse group of people, is so uniformly saintly. This is a highly, highly romanticized view of immgrants (from any locality). Immigrants are as flawed as non-immigrants are – individually & collectively. They are neither imbalanced saints nor imbalanced sinners.
I do not think the intent was to convey that all immigrants are uniformily saintly. Jesus told his listeners in the Sermon on the Mount, “You are the light of the World.” This type of statement is not used to canonize all listening but rather to express the role that his disciples play.

If it were me, I might remark that I appreciate the way the immigrants, especially the migrant workers, show the value of hard work and the dignity of manual labor. Yet I know that some individually may be lazy, or may steal, or may do any number of things that are beneath the dignity of the human person.

You and I may never have a need to make such statements, but it is hard to disparge pastors for speaking pastorally.
 
Pope Benedict XVI’s Prayer Intentions for December 2012
General Intention: That migrants throughout the world may be welcomed with generosity and authentic love, especially by Christian communities.
Missionary Intention: Christ, light for all humanity. That Christ may reveal himself to all humanity with the light that shines forth from Bethlehem and is reflected in the face of his Church.
 
It use to be in the 1980s, those who came across the border, a crime in itself, a felony, were looking for work. Now, the way the Northern part of Mexico is and a lot of the rest of the country with the mass graves, decapitations, bodies hanging from bridges, it’s a different world than in the past. Even one of the Cartels committed a massacre against immigrants in passage, those coming from many of the countries in Latin America.

So, in the '80s, workers were coming across but it’s really changed.
 
Pope Benedict XVI’s Prayer Intentions for December 2012
General Intention: That migrants throughout the world may be welcomed with generosity and authentic love, especially by Christian communities.
Missionary Intention: Christ, light for all humanity. That Christ may reveal himself to all humanity with the light that shines forth from Bethlehem and is reflected in the face of his Church.
In Phoenix, some undocumented aliens beheaded another undocumented alien. Are you saying that the Holy Father is saying we should welcome these people?
 
There is a Priest on Relevant Radio who says there has always been a battle for the soul of Mexico, a battle with the Devil, just like they use to have the human sacrifices with the Aztecs and depicted in the movie Apocalypto. terrible things go on there today. The Priest says this is exactly why Our Lady of Guadalupe came and thus, She steps on the head of the serpent, the devil as in Genesis. I guess some people don’t want us to acknowledge evil exists and that everything is great.

Of course, we need to remind ourselves, evil persists in every or nearly every country.
 
Admitting illegals to citizenship will be helpful to some Hispanics who really want to become citizens. Many would find it advantageous but have no intention of becoming “Americans”, because many are here to raise money to advance their position in their home countries.

Ultimately, though, I believe real immigration reform will operate to the detriment of Hispanics because they will not be favored as they are now. Asians and Middle Easterners would be the primary beneficiaries.
 
Answer by Fr.Stephen F. Torraco on 4/27/2007:
*
The positions of various Church leaders on illegal immigrants are entirely** their own opinions *and not the official teaching of the Church. If the Church has any applicable teaching on this issue, it would be that the civil government has the obligation to uphold laws that are just and citizens are obliged to obey such laws
ewtn.com/vexperts/showmessage.asp?Pgnu=1&Pg=Forum5&recnu=2&number=500022

Good reading.
 
As Wednesdy is the Feast or Our Lady of Guadalupe, I think it good to post the letter from last year as a message of solidarity as we anticipate a renewal of this subject in the up-coming Congress.
usccbmedia.blogspot.com/2011/12/estas-son-las-mananitasof-hispanic_12.html
“We will find the solution by sowing a sense of solidarity among all workers and co-workers —immigrants and citizens—who live together in the United States. In your suffering faces we see the true face of Jesus Christ. We are well aware of the great sacrifice you make for your families’ well-being. Many of you perform the most difficult jobs and receive miserable salaries and no health insurance or social security. Despite your contributions to the well-being of our country, instead of receiving our thanks, you are often treated as criminals because you have violated current immigration laws.”
Just what is missing from this document and all general statements made by the bishops on this subject? They speak of solidarity from one side only. (Which is not solidarity!) What about the balkanization of this country, the unrealistic financial burden of millions upon millions allowed here changing the very face of this nation, the bankrupt medical facilities and those who have lost their jobs because of it? Why do they never speak of morality and spiritual guidance to those who have broken the law and often times committed other crimes. Earlier church documents always stated that the needs of the poor should not be narrowed to material goods only. And what about the injustice and suffering of American workers losing their jobs to illegal foreign nationals? And yes they are…especially in the construction trade.

This is written by a Catholic priest:
If there is such a thing as a national community, open borders are the negation of the common good, and blurring the lines of legality of status in a country is a lack of healthy and respectful realism regarding the common good. If the common good of the national family is to be protected and promoted by all members of the community, including Catholics, then the distinction between legal immigrant and illegal immigrant is not morally irrelevant. It is, in fact, a fundamental distinction that cannot be ignored, a distinction between persons who respect the common good and persons who do not respect the common good. “The Church is (indeed) the place where illegal immigrants are recognized and accepted as brothers and sisters,” for the Church is the place where all are recognized and accepted as brothers and sisters. But the illegality of such brothers and sisters — as harsh as this may sound to certain ears — cannot be promoted if Catholics are to respect the common good of the national family. Open borders advocacy is civilly and socially disrespectful. Immediate, temporary, transitional assistance for a person in distress who is here illegally is a mandate from Christ, but it is not on the same level as public policy.
 
These statements may have been referred to earlier:
**Does the Catholic Church believe in “open borders?”
No, Church teaching supports the right sovereign nations to control their borders. **Enforcement of our borders, however, should include the protection of the basic human rights and dignity of the migrant and not place lives at risk.
Does the Catholic Church support illegal immigration?
No. **The Catholic Church does not support or encourage illegal immigration **because 1) it is contrary to federal law and 2) it is not good either for society because of the presence of a large population living outside the legal structures or the migrant, who is subjected to abuse, exploitation, and death in the desert. Instead, the Church is advocating changing a broken law so that undocumented persons can obtain legal status in our country and enter the United States legally to work and support their families.
usccb.org/issues-and-action/human-life-and-dignity/immigration/frequently-asked-questions-comprehensive-immigration-reform.cfm
 
Just what is missing from this document and all general statements made by the bishops on this
Indeed, many things are missing, Tigg – principally among them, accuracy and a view of reality which is current, and not based on a 30, 40, or 50-year-old model of immigration, or on a textbook-romanticized “vision” of an immigrant, which is in fact a stereotype, and does not serve to advance the needs of migrants.
Why do they never speak of morality and spiritual guidance to those who have broken the law and often times committed other crimes. Earlier church documents always stated that the needs of the poor should not be narrowed to material goods only.
Well, I don’t know about those who have committed crimes. The Church does engage in some kinds of prison ministries, in general. But yes, your second point in the section I just quoted is relevant (non-narrow needs of the poor).

Again, what troubles me about the general misinformation regarding this, within the Church, is that the situation which most jeopardizes Hispanic family values and Roman Catholic Church family values is illegal immigration. Anyone who is intermarried and in touch with that culture (or those cultures, plural) has seen this, most likely, either second hand or first-hand. On many levels, illegal immigration, as opposed to legal immigration, threatens the Latino family’s moral core.

#1 - The nuclear family is usually separated by virtue of it, from the outset. That is the nature of the danger and the reality

#2 - The extended family is virtually ALWAYS separated, from the outset. It is the extended Latino family which provides the moral support of the household. Family is an integrated concept and practical reality, certainly in Mexico. Extended family members provide the supplemental moral framework for the growing child, and sometimes the only moral framework, depending on economic demands of the parents.

#3 - The reality of an American-born Latino child, or one raised here from an early age, is that a language barrier immediately results, between parents and children. That exacerbates, in large measure, the “translation” problem when it comes to moral guidance. The first language of the child becomes English, the first language of the parent never becomes English, and much too often whatever English is learned is thoroughly insufficient to bridge the cultural gaps between a child who comes to identify primarily with U.S. lifestyles/expectations, and the values of the parents. Those who come here illegally, from Latin America, are rarely quite literate in their own language, which magnifies the problem of learning an additional language, and also affects the motivation to learn an additional one. This is the reality of language-learning.

#4 - I posted earlier – about 10 weeks ago:
This is not a trivial matter, because the combination of language barriers and parental absence has a profound effect on the behavioral outcomes of children as they grow into adolescence. For example, Latina women in the States apparently have a much higher out-of-wedlock pregnancy rate than their counterparts in Mexico. (They also have an extremely high abortion rate in the States, second only to young black women.) And early pregnancy throws them further into poverty – an ironic result of the parents’ original intentions.
And in November of this year:
When one takes a look at Hispanic (especially Mexican) behavior in Mexico vs. after immigration into the United States, there are marked differences. One difference relates to a shift – from the genuine centrality of family and Church to a desperate focus on both survival on the front end, and on acquisition on the back end.

The culture of the United States is toxic to many immigrant groups, but none so much as to Latinos (overall, not including undoubted exceptions). Their choices in lifestyle and priorities, after immigration, are rather different than before, especially coming from poverty into now even greater poverty, given greater cost of living in the U.S. (now) than was true of their lives in Mexico. And that in itself is a marked change from just a generation ago.

The mindset of the U.S. does not prioritize family in the way that Mexico and some other Latin countries do. Even living for the most part not in similar communities as where they came from presents a culture shock. Coming to this country is disorienting and displacing, completely aside from any policies regarding immigration. It is a different value system here, and is becoming more distinguishable from (traditional) Mexico every day. When young women come here they behave differently than in Mexico. Here they engage in more promiscuity, casual sex, more desire for premature marriage than these same women would choose in Mexico.

The immigrant to the U.S. – but especially from Latin America – identifies much less with the U.S. now than it once did. The “allegiance” is not even, i.m.o., to their home country, but to the materialistic values which dominate American life. This is just my opinion, but one gleaned from quite a bit of observation and reading. That new allegiance supersedes allegiance to the Roman Catholic Church.

In any case, another value which they absorb from the modern U.S. is that of pragmatism and utilitarianism, which includes a stronger component of self-interest than in previous times (as contrasted with adherence, previously, to traditional values).
As a Hispanic who was born here but lived in Dominican Republic for his childhood you have a grasp of what is going on with the Hispanic community. Specially for the 2nd generation here, materialism have captivated the young.
The pursuit of materialism is NOT a Catholic priority. No bishop has stated so.
 
The mass is said in the USA in over 100 languages other than English or Spanish.
True.

But at this point the Church would not try to suppress any of them. Wasn’t it the suppression of teaching Polish that led to the schismatic Polish National Church?
 
Just what is missing from this document and all general statements made by the bishops on this subject? They speak of solidarity from one side only. (Which is not solidarity!) What about the balkanization of this country, the unrealistic financial burden of millions upon millions allowed here changing the very face of this nation, the bankrupt medical facilities and those who have lost their jobs because of it? Why do they never speak of morality and spiritual guidance to those who have broken the law and often times committed other crimes.
Before you dismiss these good men for their onesidedness, I recommend you read the letter. They did address this issue pastorally.
As pastors concerned for your welfare, we ask you to consider seriously whether it is advisable to undertake the journey here until after just and humane changes occur in our immigration laws.
As quoted above, the USCCB has never supported open borders and, to my knowledge, no one here has ever suggested we have open borders. It is immigration reforme that is needed. As to obeying the law, I guess if one has never broken a traffic law one might be in a position to throw a few stones at the violation of immigration law. As pointed out in other threads, such violations, like traffic laws, are not considered criminal.
 
Whatever your views on gay issues or the insurance mandate, you have to praise Obama for his immigration reform. This is the Christian thing to do.
No, I do not. No country that values its survival can take on all comers, from all cultures, at once, without being destroyed from within. Right now, prisons are crowded with illegals, guilty of crimes quite apart from that of crossing the border without permission. :dts: Rob
 
Yes, those here illegally who are offered all manner of privileges have been exploited by our government and used to alter the political landscape. And worse than the link above is the way the culture of death is targeting Hispanics by educating them in reproductive “health.”

They have a utilitarian purpose only and immigration reform is Obama’s payback for the 71% of Latinos who voted for him and ensured his victory.
Right. Unfettered immigration will lead to America turning into a sewer, permanently led by leftists hostile to the concept of individual sovereignty. Leviathan government, endless decline and economic depression. 😦 Rob
 
So, in the '80s, workers were coming across but it’s really changed.
Our laws have not changed in response to the violence across the border. If in fact we now have a worse issue with crime coming across the border, and I believe this possible, then it would speak to the current ineffectiveness of the present immigration laws. As those of us who are gun advocates so often point out, criminals really aren’t big on following the law. Immigration laws are not going to phase drug cartels. What can be improved is enforcement. If stopping criminal immigration is truly the concern, the the initiative of President Obama last year to direct ICE from deportation of all immigrants to deporting those who commit crimes was the best thing. Allowing an ease of immigration for workers to free resources to blocking border crossing of drug cartels should be part of any reform.
 
There is a Priest on Relevant Radio who says there has always been a battle for the soul of Mexico, a battle with the Devil, just like they use to have the human sacrifices with the Aztecs and depicted in the movie Apocalypto. terrible things go on there today. The Priest says this is exactly why Our Lady of Guadalupe came and thus, She steps on the head of the serpent, the devil as in Genesis. I guess some people don’t want us to acknowledge evil exists and that everything is great.

Of course, we need to remind ourselves, evil persists in every or nearly every country.
Right. So why not welcome those trying to escape the violence, even if they are undocumented?
 
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