Obama to Give Commencement Speech at Notre Dame

  • Thread starter Thread starter tm30
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
I am confident that I understand the law well, but I do not blame you for not taking my word for it. On the other hand I don’t think performing miracles is a reasonable standard of proof.

Many solid and unbiased legal analysts have looked at the proposed bill and concluded its much ado about nothing. The trouble is that the long-standing practice here to is label anyone that disagrees with what is perceived to be the “party line” as a heretic, a liberal or a pro-abortionist. (Even Sen Brownback is called a liberal pro-abort by some here.)

Nonetheless, I will make the attempt. Here is an analysis of FOCA from the John P. Murphy Foundation Professor of Law and Professor of Theology at Notre Dame, Cathleen Kaveny. She concludes that FOCA would be a very bad law, but that both sides are overstating its possible effects.

commonwealmagazine.org/article.php3?id_article=2423
I read the article you linked and do not come away with the same reaction you do. First, Cathleen Kaveny is no “unbiased” legal analyst. She is one of a trio of notorious (to faithful Catholics) legal “scholars” who came out in 2008 in support of Obama for President as supposedly the more “pro-life” of the two major candidates - the other two scholars being Douglas Kmiec and Nicholas Cafardi. (Cafardi resigned from Franciscan University of Steubenville’s Board of Visitors in the wake of the denunciations that followed his Obama endorsement.) George Wiegel - as well as many Bishops - refuted their sophistries quite convincingly in Newsweek, among other places. Kaveny also wrote an article in a Jesuit magazine last year contending that the concept of “intrinsic evil” as applied to abortion is unhelpful and essentially meaningless to Catholics making their voting decisions because the Church has used “intrinsic evil” to refer to other things, too, like contraception. Kaveny was able to make this argument only by omitting to state (either deliberately or, giving her the benefit of the doubt, negligently) the Vatican’s consistent and prominent insistence that abortion is an evil of a different and significantly higher degree than other evils, including contraception.

But let’s look at her article on the merits. The most she can say is that it’s unclear how the courts would interpret FOCA when faced with a civil action seeking to enforce the rights it confers. She suggests that the Courts might interpret FOCA’s statutory clause “interfere” [with the woman’s abortion right] as equivalent to placing an “undue burden” on that right, which is the standard applied by the Supreme Court in Planned Parenthood v. Casey; and if they did so, existing limits on the abortion right, which were found not to offend the “undue burden” standard, would remain intact.

The problem is that FOCA does not use the phrase “place an undue burden.” Rather, it uses the phrase “interfere.” I don’t know about you, TMC, but I happen to be a lawyer, and a litigator, and a former clerk for federal judges at both the trial and appellate levels, and happen to have learned something about statutory construction from more than two decades work as a lawyer. There is scant reason, if any, to expect that courts faced with a FOCA lawsuit would make the plaintiff clear the higher hurdle of “undue burden” when the legislation itself does not use that language but instead only uses the term “interfere.” The plaintiff would most certainly contend (perhaps with Kmiec, Kaveny & Cafardi supporting the plaintiff in an amicus brief) that “if Congress wanted us to have to show ‘undue burden,’ with all the Supreme Court trappings thrown up around that term in its abortion cases, Congress knew how to say so; but it did not. Therefore, we should be required to show only that the right to abortion has been ‘interfered’ with – which is and ought to be treated as a much lower burden of proof.” Even Kaveny, in her article, can only bring herself to say it’s “muddled” what the result would be. An unbiased, objective legal analyst would say that, while it may not be 100% certain, it’s certainly highly probable that the plaintiff’s burden would be much lower, if FOCA were passed, than the “undue burden” standard. Indeed, as Kaveny herself recognizes in her quotes from FOCA’s backers, that’s exactly the purpose of the legislation. Much ado about nothing? Nonsense!

You say “many solid and unbiased legal scholars” have looked at FOCA and concluded it’s much ado about nothing. Name them, and also supply your basis for calling them unbiased.
 
I have thought about this and I’m not sure that skipping the graduation ceremony would be the right way for these students to go. If the ones who are opposed skip the ceremony, the only people present would be the ones who love Obama and couldn’t care less about the rights of the unborn. Would it not be better for the dissenting students to go so that he can see that not everyone is clapping for him, not everyone is receiving him with the adoration he craves?

Students sitting with hands folded in their laps while their peers give the president a standing ovation…now there’s a message. Just a thought that I had, I don’t know if it will work.
 
The issue at ND is at least shedding light on FOCA. More and more people are being made aware of the secular impact on catholic education. It’ s been going on for decades. The new age movement is at the root of this secular infiltration into catholic institutions. For decades catholic preists and nuns acted as new age practitioners. They infiltrated and tried to destroy the true catholic church. These practioners, including many bishops,need to be weeded out. “If they are not with us they are against us.” Not to worry, the church under Our Lord, Jesus will live on. But many will need to take a stand. We are either with Jesus or against Him. Let’s line up with the Lamb of God.
 
I have thought about this and I’m not sure that skipping the graduation ceremony would be the right way for these students to go. If the ones who are opposed skip the ceremony, the only people present would be the ones who love Obama and couldn’t care less about the rights of the unborn. Would it not be better for the dissenting students to go so that he can see that not everyone is clapping for him, not everyone is receiving him with the adoration he craves?

Students sitting with hands folded in their laps while their peers give the president a standing ovation…now there’s a message. Just a thought that I had, I don’t know if it will work.
.
The focus should be on the ND president, FR. Jenkins,( I think that’s his name) who approved inviting Obama. He’s a catholic priest. The motives behind the invitation are questionable. Why? Who else is involved in approving the invitation? The pro-life students have an opportunity here to protest and ask for answers as to why a catholic university is involved in anti catholic activities.
Obama is not catholic. His cravings for attention and adoration isn’t the issue here. Psychoanalysts need to intervene there.
Folding their hands in their laps while Obama accepts applause from his supporters isn’t much of a protest. Obama’s perception of it ( I doubt he"ll even notice it ), isn’t relavent.
 
OK. So my family won’t swing though Indiana when we do our summer visitations of colleges for our HS Class of 2010 daughter. She’ll have one less application to write, one less application fee to pay. And we’ll have the joy of visiting faithful Catholic colleges this summer, and she will be blessed by a good Catholic education in so avoiding Notre Dame. BTW there are 2 others in her class who have decided NOT to apply there b/c of all of this. We’re praying for a change in the institution, but will not crucify our daughter on the altar of secularized, heretical catholicism.
 
It seems the separation of church and state is on the side of pro-life advocates. The US government with its pro-choice president, in this case, is anti catholic. All practicing catholics should be pro-life or they are not practicing the faith.
RE: CHURCH VS. STATE Our constitution describes freedom of religion. Maybe some pro-life legal experts need to help us here. US tax -payers are in danger of being forced to help pay for abortions in other countries (FOCA) and here within the U.S .(welfare system) , along with stem cell research, What if pro-life medical and social workers are forced to comply with FOCA or leave their jobs? Aren’t our constitutional rights being attacked? WE NEED TO CONSIDER SOME PREVENTIVE MEASURES. I THINK CATHOLIC LEGAL EXPERTS ARE RESPONSIBLE TO DEVELOP A PLAN.
Is anyone out there an expert in this field?
 
I read the article you linked and do not come away with the same reaction you do. First, Cathleen Kaveny is no “unbiased” legal analyst. She is one of a trio of notorious (to faithful Catholics) legal “scholars” who came out in 2008 in support of Obama for President as supposedly the more “pro-life” of the two major candidates - the other two scholars being Douglas Kmiec and Nicholas Cafardi. (Cafardi resigned from Franciscan University of Steubenville’s Board of Visitors in the wake of the denunciations that followed his Obama endorsement.) George Wiegel - as well as many Bishops - refuted their sophistries quite convincingly in Newsweek, among other places. Kaveny also wrote an article in a Jesuit magazine last year contending that the concept of “intrinsic evil” as applied to abortion is unhelpful and essentially meaningless to Catholics making their voting decisions because the Church has used “intrinsic evil” to refer to other things, too, like contraception. Kaveny was able to make this argument only by omitting to state (either deliberately or, giving her the benefit of the doubt, negligently) the Vatican’s consistent and prominent insistence that abortion is an evil of a different and significantly higher degree than other evils, including contraception.

But let’s look at her article on the merits. The most she can say is that it’s unclear how the courts would interpret FOCA when faced with a civil action seeking to enforce the rights it confers. She suggests that the Courts might interpret FOCA’s statutory clause “interfere” [with the woman’s abortion right] as equivalent to placing an “undue burden” on that right, which is the standard applied by the Supreme Court in Planned Parenthood v. Casey; and if they did so, existing limits on the abortion right, which were found not to offend the “undue burden” standard, would remain intact.

The problem is that FOCA does not use the phrase “place an undue burden.” Rather, it uses the phrase “interfere.” I don’t know about you, TMC, but I happen to be a lawyer, and a litigator, and a former clerk for federal judges at both the trial and appellate levels, and happen to have learned something about statutory construction from more than two decades work as a lawyer. There is scant reason, if any, to expect that courts faced with a FOCA lawsuit would make the plaintiff clear the higher hurdle of “undue burden” when the legislation itself does not use that language but instead only uses the term “interfere.” The plaintiff would most certainly contend (perhaps with Kmiec, Kaveny & Cafardi supporting the plaintiff in an amicus brief) that “if Congress wanted us to have to show ‘undue burden,’ with all the Supreme Court trappings thrown up around that term in its abortion cases, Congress knew how to say so; but it did not. Therefore, we should be required to show only that the right to abortion has been ‘interfered’ with – which is and ought to be treated as a much lower burden of proof.” Even Kaveny, in her article, can only bring herself to say it’s “muddled” what the result would be. An unbiased, objective legal analyst would say that, while it may not be 100% certain, it’s certainly highly probable that the plaintiff’s burden would be much lower, if FOCA were passed, than the “undue burden” standard. Indeed, as Kaveny herself recognizes in her quotes from FOCA’s backers, that’s exactly the purpose of the legislation. Much ado about nothing? Nonsense!

You say “many solid and unbiased legal scholars” have looked at FOCA and concluded it’s much ado about nothing. Name them, and also supply your basis for calling them unbiased.
First, merely pointing out that Prof Kaveny has on at least one occasion supported a different political party than you do is not evidence of bias as to this issue, and certainly doesn’t detract from the substance of her arguments.

As to my own qualifications, I do not give any personal identifying information in forums, including educational background or employment experience. I know that seems paranoid, and I realize it may detract from the force of my arguments. I have seen other people tracked down by on-line opponents, and I decided long ago not to expose myself to such tactics.

As far as putting forth additional analysts in response to your rejection of Prof. Kaveny, I have not seen anyone else who is not actively involved in advocacy on one side or the other of the abortion issue quoted here. Nonetheless, when I get a little time I’ll see if I can find some publically available analyses for you.

To the substance – as both you and Prof Kaveny point out, FOCA echoes the language of Roe v Wade, which discussed the right to seek an abortion without “interference,” while current law is more or less based on Casey, which applied the undue burden standard. You say “interference” give the state less power to regulate abortion, Kaveny says its muddled. But we should at least be able to agree that whatever FOCA does, it goes no farther then Roe did. And I don’t think you are seriously arguing that from 1973 to 1992 the federal government had the power to force women to have abortions or to force doctors to perform abortions, are you? How will FOCA be more pro-abortion than the law in that 19 year stretch?

Again, I am not saying that FOCA is a good law, it would be a very bad law. But its not the biggest threat to the pro-life movement, or even very high on the list. And misrepresenting its impact is seriously degrading the movement’s credibility.
 
To the substance – as both you and Prof Kaveny point out, FOCA echoes the language of Roe v Wade, which discussed the right to seek an abortion without “interference,” while current law is more or less based on Casey, which applied the undue burden standard. You say “interference” give the state less power to regulate abortion, Kaveny says its muddled. But we should at least be able to agree that whatever FOCA does, it goes no farther then Roe did. And I don’t think you are seriously arguing that from 1973 to 1992 the federal government had the power to force women to have abortions or to force doctors to perform abortions, are you? How will FOCA be more pro-abortion than the law in that 19 year stretch?

Again, I am not saying that FOCA is a good law, it would be a very bad law. But its not the biggest threat to the pro-life movement, or even very high on the list. And misrepresenting its impact is seriously degrading the movement’s credibility.
Wrong. Even your partisan-hack so-called “Catholic” scholar Kaveny says it’s “muddled” what the Courts would do with FOCA. Even she concedes there’s real risk. I say there’s more than risk - there’s likelihood of a rollback. And I’ve spelled out the reasons why. And I’m not the only one who says it. The Bishops Conference says it. And the Planned Parenthood and NARAL authors of this outlandish piece of legislation say it. Even assuming for the sake of argument, however, that you’re right – and you’re not – that FOCA would “only” turn the clock back to the 1970s and 1980s – a time when, by the way, the Courts were striking down any and every restriction on abortion, however modest, as “unconstitutional” - including restrictions that were later allowed to stand - why in the world should we countenance such turning back of the clock or be untroubled by it? How would that be a non-event? To forfeit all the pro-life gains made in all the years since 1992? Informed Consent Laws, waiting periods, Laci & Conor’s Law, the Born Alive Infant Protection Act, the Partial Birth Abortion Ban Act, to name but a few?

To return to the topic at hand, President Obama stands pledged to sign FOCA if Congress passes it. Even under your sophistries, you admit that FOCA would at a minimum visit a significant rollback – turn the clock back three decades – upon the Pro-Life Movement’s hard fought gains. In his short time in Office, President Obama has already (among other things) reversed the Mexico City Policy - thereby ensuring that the US Taxpayer will once again be paying for abortions overseas; has opened the way for US Taxpayer funding of the killing of human embryos for research; and has decided to rescind an HHS regulation affording conscience protection to health care workers who conscientiously object to abortion. (So it’s not just through FOCA that Obama strives to roll back conscience protections; it’s also through regulatory assault.) All that, plus he stands pledged to sign FOCA, and to put only pro-abortion “rights” “judges” on the federal bench. And he has named a pro-abortion-zealot “Catholic” as his Secretary for Health & Human Services. He is proving to be just as he advertised himself: A champion of the Culture of Death. For a Catholic university – Our Lady’s University no less - to invite such a one to be its commencement speaker and to be honored with an honorary Doctor of Laws degree is a betrayal in the extreme. (I would not object of course to inviting the President to Notre Dame to debate the abortion issue - perhaps with genuine Catholic Law Professor Mary Ann Glendon on the other side.)

In fact, I would say that, whether the University of Notre Dame’s leadership realizes it or not (and they probably don’t realize it) the Obama invitation is worse than mere disobedience to the Bishops’ 2004 directive; it’s downright demonic. It’s right out of the Enemy’s playbook. Infiltrate the Church and seek to undermine it from within. Seek to confuse the faithful with pretenders, Gnostics and the like, who say, “Don’t listen to Peter and the Apostles; don’t listen to Peter’s Successor, the Pope, or to the Apostles’ true Successors --that is, the Bishops who speak in union with the Pope; instead, listen to us. We know better. You can take our word for it because we’re ‘Catholic,’ too. You can be pro-abortion ‘rights’ and still be a good Catholic after all.”

Jesus said, “My sheep hear my voice and they know Me.” By opposing Jesus and His Church, President Obama, as well as Sebelius, Kaveny, Kmiec, the University of Notre Dame’s president and every other so-called “Catholic” pretender aligned with Obama, takes the opposite side of the Truth. I hope and pray that all such pretenders, fraudsters and sophists see the error of their ways and repent, and that, in the meantime, their efforts to divide and confuse Catholics, which they are stepping up, are vigorously exposed and stamped out. Our Lady, Exterminatrix of Heresies, Pray for Us.
 
Wrong. Even your partisan-hack so-called “Catholic” scholar Kaveny says it’s “muddled” what the Courts would do with FOCA. Even she concedes there’s real risk. I say there’s more than risk - there’s likelihood of a rollback. And I’ve spelled out the reasons why. And I’m not the only one who says it. The Bishops Conference says it. And the Planned Parenthood and NARAL authors of this outlandish piece of legislation say it. Even assuming for the sake of argument, however, that you’re right – and you’re not – that FOCA would “only” turn the clock back to the 1970s and 1980s – a time when, by the way, the Courts were striking down any and every restriction on abortion, however modest, as “unconstitutional” - including restrictions that were later allowed to stand - why in the world should we countenance such turning back of the clock or be untroubled by it? How would that be a non-event? To forfeit all the pro-life gains made in all the years since 1992? Informed Consent Laws, waiting periods, Laci & Conor’s Law, the Born Alive Infant Protection Act, the Partial Birth Abortion Ban Act, to name but a few?

To return to the topic at hand, President Obama stands pledged to sign FOCA if Congress passes it. Even under your sophistries, you admit that FOCA would at a minimum visit a significant rollback – turn the clock back three decades – upon the Pro-Life Movement’s hard fought gains. In his short time in Office, President Obama has already (among other things) reversed the Mexico City Policy - thereby ensuring that the US Taxpayer will once again be paying for abortions overseas; has opened the way for US Taxpayer funding of the killing of human embryos for research; and has decided to rescind an HHS regulation affording conscience protection to health care workers who conscientiously object to abortion. (So it’s not just through FOCA that Obama strives to roll back conscience protections; it’s also through regulatory assault.) All that, plus he stands pledged to sign FOCA, and to put only pro-abortion “rights” “judges” on the federal bench. And he has named a pro-abortion-zealot “Catholic” as his Secretary for Health & Human Services. He is proving to be just as he advertised himself: A champion of the Culture of Death. For a Catholic university – Our Lady’s University no less - to invite such a one to be its commencement speaker and to be honored with an honorary Doctor of Laws degree is a betrayal in the extreme. (I would not object of course to inviting the President to Notre Dame to debate the abortion issue - perhaps with genuine Catholic Law Professor Mary Ann Glendon on the other side.)

In fact, I would say that, whether the University of Notre Dame’s leadership realizes it or not (and they probably don’t realize it) the Obama invitation is worse than mere disobedience to the Bishops’ 2004 directive; it’s downright demonic. It’s right out of the Enemy’s playbook. Infiltrate the Church and seek to undermine it from within. Seek to confuse the faithful with pretenders, Gnostics and the like, who say, “Don’t listen to Peter and the Apostles; don’t listen to Peter’s Successor, the Pope, or to the Apostles’ true Successors --that is, the Bishops who speak in union with the Pope; instead, listen to us. We know better. You can take our word for it because we’re ‘Catholic,’ too. You can be pro-abortion ‘rights’ and still be a good Catholic after all.”

Jesus said, “My sheep hear my voice and they know Me.” By opposing Jesus and His Church, President Obama, as well as Sebelius, Kaveny, Kmiec, the University of Notre Dame’s president and every other so-called “Catholic” pretender aligned with Obama, takes the opposite side of the Truth. I hope and pray that all such pretenders, fraudsters and sophists see the error of their ways and repent, and that, in the meantime, their efforts to divide and confuse Catholics, which they are stepping up, are vigorously exposed and stamped out. Our Lady, Exterminatrix of Heresies, Pray for Us.
OK, I don’t know how we got so far afield from discussing ND to debating the possible meaning of a bill that has not even been introduced. But I know that the conversation is over once the acts of priests of the Catholic Church are described as demonic.

Your post is a fine example of an increasingly common tactic popularized by some of the more public (and publicity seeking) “leaders” of the fight against abortion – the tactic of declaring that anyone that disagrees with you in anyway on the ‘best’ or ‘appropriate’ way to fight the abortion battle is a pretend Catholic. Even those that say they agree with the goal of ending abortion are declared to be pro-abortionists, or at least insincere wafflers, if they don’t make precisely the same decisions, and fight the battle in precisely the same way, that the very vocal publicitly seekers demand. Innumerable priests have been defamed in this way. Sen Brownback, who has spent much of his life leading the pro-lifers in Congress has been a victim of these attacks. Bishops have been unconscionably attacked and defamed in the press. This tactic of “vigorously exposing and stamping” on anyone on either side of life issues that dares to differ with the self-proclaimed leaders in any way is having a significant impact on the pro-life movement. Its killing it.
 
Wrong. Even your partisan-hack so-called “Catholic” scholar Kaveny says it’s “muddled” what the Courts would do with FOCA. Even she concedes there’s real risk. I say there’s more than risk - there’s likelihood of a rollback. And I’ve spelled out the reasons why. And I’m not the only one who says it. The Bishops Conference says it. And the Planned Parenthood and NARAL authors of this outlandish piece of legislation say it. Even assuming for the sake of argument, however, that you’re right – and you’re not – that FOCA would “only” turn the clock back to the 1970s and 1980s – a time when, by the way, the Courts were striking down any and every restriction on abortion, however modest, as “unconstitutional” - including restrictions that were later allowed to stand - why in the world should we countenance such turning back of the clock or be untroubled by it? How would that be a non-event? To forfeit all the pro-life gains made in all the years since 1992? Informed Consent Laws, waiting periods, Laci & Conor’s Law, the Born Alive Infant Protection Act, the Partial Birth Abortion Ban Act, to name but a few?

To return to the topic at hand, President Obama stands pledged to sign FOCA if Congress passes it. Even under your sophistries, you admit that FOCA would at a minimum visit a significant rollback – turn the clock back three decades – upon the Pro-Life Movement’s hard fought gains. In his short time in Office, President Obama has already (among other things) reversed the Mexico City Policy - thereby ensuring that the US Taxpayer will once again be paying for abortions overseas; has opened the way for US Taxpayer funding of the killing of human embryos for research; and has decided to rescind an HHS regulation affording conscience protection to health care workers who conscientiously object to abortion. (So it’s not just through FOCA that Obama strives to roll back conscience protections; it’s also through regulatory assault.) All that, plus he stands pledged to sign FOCA, and to put only pro-abortion “rights” “judges” on the federal bench. And he has named a pro-abortion-zealot “Catholic” as his Secretary for Health & Human Services. He is proving to be just as he advertised himself: A champion of the Culture of Death. For a Catholic university – Our Lady’s University no less - to invite such a one to be its commencement speaker and to be honored with an honorary Doctor of Laws degree is a betrayal in the extreme. (I would not object of course to inviting the President to Notre Dame to debate the abortion issue - perhaps with genuine Catholic Law Professor Mary Ann Glendon on the other side.)

In fact, I would say that, whether the University of Notre Dame’s leadership realizes it or not (and they probably don’t realize it) the Obama invitation is worse than mere disobedience to the Bishops’ 2004 directive; it’s downright demonic. It’s right out of the Enemy’s playbook. Infiltrate the Church and seek to undermine it from within. Seek to confuse the faithful with pretenders, Gnostics and the like, who say, “Don’t listen to Peter and the Apostles; don’t listen to Peter’s Successor, the Pope, or to the Apostles’ true Successors --that is, the Bishops who speak in union with the Pope; instead, listen to us. We know better. You can take our word for it because we’re ‘Catholic,’ too. You can be pro-abortion ‘rights’ and still be a good Catholic after all.”

Jesus said, “My sheep hear my voice and they know Me.” By opposing Jesus and His Church, President Obama, as well as Sebelius, Kaveny, Kmiec, the University of Notre Dame’s president and every other so-called “Catholic” pretender aligned with Obama, takes the opposite side of the Truth. I hope and pray that all such pretenders, fraudsters and sophists see the error of their ways and repent, and that, in the meantime, their efforts to divide and confuse Catholics, which they are stepping up, are vigorously exposed and stamped out. Our Lady, Exterminatrix of Heresies, Pray for Us.
Thank you for elaborating so well. ND’s invitation to Obama brought forth this examination of FOCA and other topics you’ve targeted. The Catholic Educational System is guilty of allowing its schools, ND and several others, to continue to call themselves catholic, while deceiving unsuspecting students. Hypocrites, using brainwashing and other techniques to entice young minds, have been allowed to invade classrooms. Why? It’s certainly no secret. EWTN broadcasts it for all sides to hear.
 
Sen Brownback, who has spent much of his life leading the pro-lifers in Congress has been a victim of these attacks.
Sen. Brownback betrayed the Pro life movement with his vote in favor of Sebellius. He gets what he deserves.
 
I know that the conversation is over once the acts of priests of the Catholic Church are described as demonic.
I suggest that you read some history as well as some Scriptures. No one is exempt from the wiles of the Enemy, even priests - even theology professors at Catholic institutions. (Indeed, if I were the Enemy, that’s exactly where I’d concentrate my strongest temptations and attacks. Why? Because I’d figure that if I could compromise a priest or a Catholic theology professor or other Catholic leader, it would be like compromising a general of my Opponent’s army.) The fact is, anyone can fall and many have - even priests, over the centuries. Remember Lucifer? Despite enjoying the beatific vision, he fell, and took a third of the angels with him. Remember Judas? Despite having actually been with and seen Our Lord for three full years, and despite all the advantages and graces he had and all the astounding miracles he saw, he fell and betrayed Our Lord. St. Paul himself prayed not to stumble; Cardinal Newman urged all believers to pray for fidelity and perseverance in their faith. St. Francis de Sales, in one of his famous sermons for Lent, pointed out that we should always remind ourselves of Lucifer’s and Judas’s falls, lest we forget that anyone can fall - ourselves included. It may offend you to point this out but that doesn’t change the fact that it’s the truth.

A review of history also confirms it. Remember the Arian Heresy? Well, Arius was a bishop - and not only did he fall into the heresy that bears his name, he at one point had the majority of Catholic bishops around the world on his side! Remember racial slavery? Despite the fact that a series of Popes going back to the 1400s, when racial slavery first appeared, unequivocally condemned it, many rank-and-file Catholics and even some priests and bishops defied the Popes and practiced it. Indeed, following Pope Gregory XVI’s 1839 encyclical (“In Supremo”), reiterating Rome’s condemnation of racial slavery, the majority of the Bishops of the United States came out with a statement “clarifying” the Pope’s statement as supposedly applying only to the foreign slave trade and not to the actual practice of slavery in America! Only one U.S. Bishop – Purcell of Cincinnati – was loyal to the Pope at the time and firm in his opposition to slavery. U.S. leaders of the Jesuits at the time, having gotten wind of the fact that the Pope would be coming out with the 1839 encyclical - which merely reaffirmed past condemnations - hurriedly sold more than 200 slaves they owned in Maryland to owners in Louisiana – to the shock and scandal of faithful Catholics – including orthodox Jesuits – both at that time and since. (They used the funds to build Jesuit universities in the Northeast; perhaps it’s not surprising most of those schools are woefully lacking in orthodoxy and fidelity.)
Your post is a fine example of an increasingly common tactic … of declaring that anyone that disagrees with you in anyway on the ‘best’ or ‘appropriate’ way to fight the abortion battle is a pretend Catholic.
This discussion is about Notre Dame’s invitation to the most pro-abortion president we’ve ever had to be its commencement speaker and to be honored with an honorary degree. It isn’t about the other things you attempt to equate it to. While conscientious Catholics may disagree on the best way to fight abortion and still be good Catholics, the Bishops Conference unequivocally stated in 2004 that Catholic institutions should not honor pro-abortion-rights leaders by giving them honors that suggest support for their actions. That’s exactly what Notre Dame is doing. It did not invite Obama to dialogue. It invited him to give a monologue. It’s honoring him. The clear message is that his Culture of Death credo and actions are not only not so bad, but honorable.

I sincerely hoped that Kaveny, Kmiec, Cafardi and other Catholic apologists for Obama would follow through on their pre-election pledges to work to make Obama more pro-life. Where is the evidence that these and other “Catholic” supporters and extenders of this invitation have done or are doing anything to turn Obama around? You seem to suggest that the Obama invitation is in some way simply an alternative means of advancing the pro-life cause. Tell me how on earth that could be so? It’s not an invitation to a debate – which frankly would be a great idea and which would undoubtedly advance the pro-life cause.

There is a base-line requirement for being a faithful Catholic, and that is to uphold the teachings of the Church on matters of faith and morals and to give an unequivocal witness to those teachings in the world - through our actions. And what exactly are those teachings? They are not the teachings of just any priest or even bishop, or even theology professor at a Catholic college, who happen to hold the title of priest, bishop or theology professor, but the authentic teachings of the Magisterium of the Church. The teachings of the Catechism, of the Popes, and of the Bishops who speak in union with the Pope. You can look them up - and it’s easier to do so in this generation than it ever was before. You can visit the Vatican’s website and read whatever you want in English!

But it’s not a democracy; it’s not “anything goes”; it’s not “any baptized Catholic can make up his or her own rules according to his or her own conscience.” Christ established a different kind of Church. A Church with authority, with Peter and his successors at its head, protected by Christ’s promise of the Holy Spirit to lead us into all truth; and a Church that He expected the flock to listen to and heed: for He said to His Apostles, “He who hears you hears Me, and he who rejects you rejects Me, and he who rejects Me rejects Him who sent Me.”

I look at history and I see that when Catholics in the past failed to heed the Pope and the Bishops in union with the Pope (as with slavery, arianism and many other evils), they erred. Those who love and strive to follow Jesus must do so on His terms. If you think that’s uncharitable, your argument is with Our Lord, not with me.
 
First, merely pointing out that Prof Kaveny has on at least one occasion supported a different political party than you do is not evidence of bias as to this issue, and certainly doesn’t detract from the substance of her arguments.

As to my own qualifications, I do not give any personal identifying information in forums, including educational background or employment experience. I know that seems paranoid, and I realize it may detract from the force of my arguments. I have seen other people tracked down by on-line opponents, and I decided long ago not to expose myself to such tactics.

As far as putting forth additional analysts in response to your rejection of Prof. Kaveny, I have not seen anyone else who is not actively involved in advocacy on one side or the other of the abortion issue quoted here. Nonetheless, when I get a little time I’ll see if I can find some publically available analyses for you. That will be useful :rolleyes: as analyses is usually done for the good of whomever is writing them.
To the substance – as both you and Prof Kaveny point out, FOCA echoes the language of Roe v Wade, which discussed the right to seek an abortion without “interference,” while current law is more or less based on Casey, which applied the undue burden standard. You say “interference” give the state less power to regulate abortion, Kaveny says its muddled. But we should at least be able to agree that whatever FOCA does, it goes no farther then Roe did. And I don’t think you are seriously arguing that from 1973 to 1992 the federal government had the power to force women to have abortions or to force doctors to perform abortions, are you? How will FOCA be more pro-abortion than the law in that 19 year stretch?

Again, I am not saying that FOCA is a good law, it would be a very bad law. But its not the biggest threat to the pro-life movement, or even very high on the list. And misrepresenting its impact is seriously degrading the movement’s credibility.
First of all, I have not found that “follower” mentioned politics in his post. I thought we were posting about morals.

Also, you are misinformed, Right to Life Proponents categorically state FOCA will OVERTURN Roe Vs. Wade. Roe Vs. Wade has some limits, as States now have the right to make their own laws as to particulars of abortion taking place in individual states. FOCA wil overturn state laws regarding abortion…
 
I think that comments on the content of the article would be more effective than suggesting a Catholic theologian who is also a respected legal scholar is not a good source without addressing the substance of her analysis. As I pointed out in my earlier post, the tactic of simply declaring those that disagree with you must be wrong is becoming increasingly common, but not getting any more effective.
I did pass over the rest of the debate without comment. I never declared her wrong. I do suggest that a person who is working at a college whose abandonment of the Church or lack thereof is the topic at-issue is only going to be considered reliable, impartial, or sound by one-half the debaters.

It would be like quoting a Mormon professor at Brigham Young about the legal meaning of Proposition 8. Sure, he might be unbiased, and he might even be right–but he’s too close to the issue to be a reliable source.

Quoting partisan or arguably partisan sources is also becoming increasingly common, but it is not getting any more effective in changing hearts and minds. That’s all I meant.
 
I’m getting tired of reading about these Judas universities selling their souls for 30 pieces of silver.

Will someone please wake me up if ND decides to become a Catholic university again? :sleep:
 
I’m getting tired of reading about these Judas universities selling their souls for 30 pieces of silver.

Will someone please wake me up if ND decides to become a Catholic university again? :sleep:
Even Rip Van Winkle never had the sleep that you are about to embark on…

or would that be Sleeping Beauty?

( I am not sure who I am addressing).
 
I thought the Palm Sunday readings were particularly relevant. The Sanhedrin and chief priests incited the crowds against Jesus. The clergy responsible for this betrayal at ND, Fathers Cleary and Jenkins and now their enabling cadre of katholics, too are leading the crowds of young impressionable college students into tolerating the intolerable…by giving gravitas and moral equivalency and high honor to a man unashamedly supportive of infanticide and abortion.

On Jesus’ arrival to the city, the crowds adorned Him with celebrity status but within a week, many of his followers (and not just the obvious conduct by Peter and the other apostles) hid and remained silent, while the Sanhedrin tormented the Christ with accusations of blasphemy. Pray then that we be silent no more and vigilant against such travesties and especially to the travesty of honoring the dishonorable at a campus dedicated to Our Lady; pray too for those our clerics who seek justification through politics, that they revert to the wonderous bounty they yield through the sacrifice of their priesthood.
 
This pro-abortion administration’s favorite tactic seems to be that of sowing confusion among Catholics by enlisting pro-choice Catholics into its cause. Look at the long list of pro-abortion Catholics who have been brought into the administration, Joe Biden being the first, and Kathleen Sebelius being the most recent. Note the pro-choice “Catholic” organizations such as Catholics United which attempt to undermine Church teachiings by enlisting Catholic support for pro-abortion politicians. Now the administration has scored a big pro-abortion coup by co-opting a Catholic university.
 
Quite simply, if Notre Dame ignores the pleas of the faithful Catholics, on behalf of the popularly detested minority poor on this issue, and not only invites, but REWARDS President Obama with a degree, they have essentially no chance of my children going their for college.

Notre Dame is clearly no longer a Catholic institution, and it is a shame that it bares such a name, to reveal only its glorious past.

The president ignores everyone who’s opinion should matter on this, so. I question his Catholicity, and can no longer trust the expertise of the staff there. Sorry guys. I’ll ignore you in the news as there doesn’t appear to be any sort of obedience present at that locale.

I need a full apology NOW.
 
Yes, maybe it’s time for divinity school students to just look elsewhere, I don’t know why you’d go to a liar school, when there are perfectly good secular schools that don’t pretend.

What good is a degree from here anyway… a divinity degree, at this point… look at who they give these honors to at the university.

Notre Dame is now junky garbage. Their Divinity School should revolt, declare itself a seperate institution. In my opinion, there really isn’t a good way for them to recover if they don’t make a meaningful attempt to distance themselves from the university. I wouldn’t have anyone in my family go there for a generation. If I was the bishop I would just shutter the place.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top