Obama vs Romney, who are you voting for and why?

[JimG]

Dawnia- I’m saying to forgive that person and to love them. That DOES NOT mean FORGET what they did. I said the death penalty CAN be used against those who are 100% convicted and found guilty of a crime. But here is a list of people I want to look at…

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_exonerated_death_row_inmates

These are all people killed for crimes they did NOT commit.

Those who did commit a crime deserve their fate, but what of these men and women?

JimG- I agree with you on that matter. But theft and assault have been issues since Jesus’ time. Abortion, unfortunately, is an issue many people don’t face themselves. It is an issue for a “modern” generation. It is a “different” issue because unlike theft and assault, which are universal in their understanding, abortion is something that some people like to think is their choice. Most people who think abortion is viable believe there are no other options for them, they need to be taught about their choices and educated and learn about their mistakes. I’m not disagreeing with anyone that abortion is an ever growing threat in our nation, and something needs to be done about it.

My argument is not to “not vote” because Republicans in general support the death penalty, but just to think about the cause and effect of our actions. I am voting for Romney, but I’d rather support an individual who was 100% pro-life, against the death penalty, and advocated the Church’s message. But this is not the realty of the world we live in.

Abortion is primarily an issue for the modern generation because the U.S. Supreme Court saw fit to overturn the laws in all 50 states which theretofore had regulated the practice of abortion. It was an exercise in “raw judicial power” to quote one of the dissents.

In the same way religious liberty will become an issue for a modern generation if Obama’s HHS is allowed to repress the religious freedom of Catholics and others through the HHS mandate. That’s why 26 lawsuits have been filed against it.

PS: I agree with this part: “Most people who think abortion is viable believe there are no other options for them, they need to be taught about their choices and educated and learn about their mistakes.”

Many women go to the abortionist not because they have a choice, but because they see no other choice. An abortion may be demanded by their mothers, their fathers, their boyfriends, their friends, people who should be helping them choose life instead of forcing them to kill their child. The law ought to be on their side and the side of their chid, not joining with those who would force them into the abortion clinic.

 

[dreamurlife]

I am in no way advocating for Obama’s HHS and agree with you totally in that regard.

I also agree that something had to be done during World War II and I believe the US made the right decision. However, it came at a great cost. Many, many, many people died. The people that died on both sides were sons, fathers, mothers, daughters, children, the elderly, everyone was affected.

The US Supreme Court did overturn the laws in all 50 states as a poor demonstration of its federal power, but let me ask you this, if Roe vs. Wade had never come up, would abortion be non existent? No. It would be up to the states to choose, and it would be much easier for people to vote against it and raise awareness.

Priests do serve as military Chaplains, but do they advocate for war? Do priests pick up rifles and fight? Many military chaplains died during WW II because they were taken prisoner and executed and did not fight back.

Let me ask this, would Jesus have grabbed a gun and fought the Nazis because it needed to be done? Or would He have died advocating non-violence? While I have no idea what Jesus would do personally, I doubt He would have picked up a gun for any reason.

No evil or violence that we face on this world need be met with evil or violence while we stand with God. Someone may torture me, may strangle me, do unspeakable things to me, but as long as my Faith remains true, none can truly harm me.

Edit: I agree the law needs to be with them. But I just find it difficult to more or less “force” it upon people who don’t know why. I am in favor of anti-abortion laws, I just believe the masses should be educated first.

 

[JimG]

Edit: I agree the law needs to be with them. But I just find it difficult to more or less “force” it upon people who don’t know why. I am in favor of anti-abortion laws, I just believe the masses should be educated first.

Exactly. The pro-life movement has been engaged in education for 40 years, and has in fact made great strides.

But the law is an educator too. If the law says ‘you can do this,’ people think it must be okay.
If it says that is wrong and must not be done, people will not be inclined to do it.

States did have 50 different state laws, not necessarily prohibiting all abortion, but regulating it. The SCOTUS essentially tossed out all those laws passed by the people via their elected state legislatures, and made abortion legal by fiat through all nine months of pregnancy, up to and including partial birth abortion.

If it were legal to kill Jews, I would work against that law; if it were legal to kill Catholics, I would work against that law. It is legal to kill children in their mother’s womb by slicing up their bodies and vacuuming out their limbs, and I work against that law.

 

[october_baby]

At first, I did’t want to vote for Romney. But I asked my priest and he told me I must vote
for the lesser of two evils. At first, I did’t think I could do that. But after given it some thought,
I came to the conculsion that even though Romney is not ideal from a conservitive view point,
at least he not hostile toward the church and free enterprise. Plus, I think we need to give give him the benifit of the doubt when he says he’s switched to a pro-life postion.
With Obama, we have no excuses, he supports gay marriage,abortion, and is against the church. :doh2:

 

[CMatt25]

Matt, I have a question for you. In what administrations have the lower middle class and the lower class income earners become non-payers of federal income taxes? I am not talking about payroll tax as in SSI and Medicare, federal income tax. Who were the presidents that made those cuts which shifted the majority of the tax burden on the upper middle class and the upper class income earners? This was not always the case you know.

What is a reasonable amount of income tax that should be applied to the lower middle and the lower class wage earners? On the same note, what is the rate at which the upper middle and upper class wage earners should pay? Thirdly, what is the proper, or to use a term others may use, what is the “fair” tax rate for capital gains?

Another question for you, what in your mind would disqualify a candidate for your vote? I’ll list a few;

1. in favor of slavery
2. self-proclaimed racist
3. legalize child labor
4. child porn legalization
5. supports abortion rights
6. supports the death penalty (you name the offense)
7. same sex unions

These are just some that stick out in my head as hot button items. Would any of these disqualify the candidate for you?

Not really interested in playing your game. I’m focused on forward not backward. And I don’t deal in not talking about other taxes just so I can say a percentage don’t pay income tax. To get conservatives to quit complaining if we must, I might entertain the lowest income earner paying 25 cebts, 50 cents or a buck just so for instance Romney and conservatives on CAF can’t keep complaining about someone not paying income tax, The upper incomes should at least go back to what President Obama has proposed. Those over a quarter of a million dollars a yr back to the rates of the Clinton yrs. Most of your list I don’t see as issues in this 21st century election… Of any that are, no.

 

[CMatt25]

We’ve been over this before. Not extending a cut is actually a tax HIKE.

You’ve never answered my question Matt

Yes we’ve been over these things countless times. We don’t agree on most of it is all including what temporary cut means. Just because you didn’t see my answer or don’t agree with it, doesn’t mean I didn’t answer. I’ve addresed taxes, no longer spending the amount of money we have for over a decade now on war, cutting defense, the need for revenue along with cuts. I’m not naive enough to think we can balance the budget on the backs of the poor and the middle class without asking the rich to sacrifice more unless we unduly want to harm the poor and middle class. I’ve discussed issues I am more concerned about and a government role in providing some services than I am concerned about the rich. Peace.

 

[CMatt25]

Bingo! you said it all.

Thank you so much. I tried. And I appreicate it even more so since you are Catholic. And yet I’ve had people saying I am voting one issue or they are bringing up things to me like slavery and child porn. God bless you. Peace.

 

[CMatt25]

So the labor movement, unions, are more important than abortion, euthenasia, same sex unions??? Why?

I’m not sure if your church and the church of the poster you asked this of agree 100% on voting.

 

[gamewell45]

So the labor movement, unions, are more important than abortion, euthenasia, same sex unions??? Why?

The other issues have no impact on me. I’ve never advocated abortion, euthenasia and I am already married and have been for years.

However since i’m still working, a persons track record on organized labor could have a negative impact on my employment future and as such its important to me…

 

[ATeutonicKnight]

The other issues have no impact on me. I’ve never advocated abortion, euthenasia and I am already married and have been for years.

However since i’m still working, a persons track record on organized labor could have a negative impact on my employment future and as such its important to me…

So your job is worth the loss of millions of innocent lives and Religious liberty? Keep in mind Obama has lost more jobs than he has made. Unemployment is at 19%.

 

[Elizabeth502]

The other issues have no impact on me. I’ve never advocated abortion, euthenasia and I am already married and have been for years.

However since i’m still working, a persons track record on organized labor could have a negative impact on my employment future and as such its important to me…

[emphases mine]

Um, most voting issues have some signficant impact on society (beyond self). Many have profound impact on the present and the future. For as long as I can remember, I have voted as my parents role-modeled my civic duty, and theirs, to be: to concern myself with the impact on society – whether a proposal or a candidate.

Whether any particular voter is married, intends to be married, is homosexual or heterosexual, could or not become pregnant, would or not ever be a member of a labor union, is all irrelevant to voting decisions. Many with no religion vote responsibly (i.e., with the concern of the whole nation in mind, or their city, county, state – when issues are more local). Surely someone formed in any faith should value the concerns of the entire community affected in such a vote.

Morality, including the moral consequences of voting decisions, has public content and public impact.

 

[CMatt25]

There is a difference;

abortion = intrinsic evil = never acceptible
capital punishment = not intrinsically evil = appropriate in certain circumstances.

Except just going by what I’ve read I’m not certain “never acceptable” means Catholics can never ever vote for a candidate who supports abortion rights. As you probably know the introductory of your bishops’ citizenship guide clearly states they do not give a scorecard of issues nor direction on how to vote.

I’ve also seen it shown on the forum opposition to intrinsic evil by Catholics can not be used to show indifference to other issues. The Catholic bishops in their guide list many serious moral issues. And that a Catholic can not vote for a candidate who favors abortion rights if the voter’s intent for doing so is to support abortion. But can if they are not doing so to support abortion and they find other grave moral reasons which overshadow intrinsic evil.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=9806271&postcount=106

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=9807414&postcount=128

In regard to the death penalty I see in your church’s CCC 2267 that the certain circumstances are to be very rare indeed.

"Today, in fact, as a consequence of the possibilities which the state has for effectively preventing crime, by rendering one who has committed an offense incapable of doing harm - without definitely taking away from him the possibility of redeeming himself - the cases in which the execution of the offender is an absolute necessity “are very rare, if not practically nonexistent.”

 

[Semper_Zelare]

I chose “Other”

I’m voting for Virgil Goode of the Constitution Party.

And it looks like 15% of people here are also voting for another choice besides Romney or Obama. So… don’t make fun of us! We have the freedom to vote for who best represents us without being mocked, ridiculed, blamed, harangued, threatened, or otherwise lambasted or by our fellow citizens.

It’s our right to vote. That right should be respected.

Thank you.

Virgil Goode is pro-life in ALL circumstances, just like the Catholic Church. My conscience is clean.

 

[bobballen_18]

I must say, I’m glad these particular posts have been small in number, but it was disturbing for me personally to read the 2-3 posts that say that they talked to their confessor or pastor and have discerned that voting for Obama would actually be OK. What in the world?!? I wonder what these pastors are saying. I think it should be common sense to most Catholics that voting for Obama is NOT morally OK. Sigh…we should continue to pray for good and holy priests (especially ones that won’t condone things like that…)

Also, I don’t get what the problem is about voting for Romney/Ryan. I know I’m not very politically aware, so this is likely the cause of my ignorance, but what is it about Romney that makes people have cold feet and think that not voting/voting 3rd party is actually going to be better than voting for Obama? Some have even claimed their conscience will not allow them to vote for Romney, so what is it that he is (apparently) going to do that goes against our Catholic faith?

As a faithful Catholic, I see no other option than to vote for Romney. Regarding the pro-life issue, I saw a post stating that Romney wasn’t going to do anything about abortion (and also used this as a reason to not vote for him). Even if this is true (which I’m not sure it is…) at the very worst, he won’t do anything and it will stay as it is. While this obviously isn’t the best thing, do you really think that the best thing to do would be not vote or vote 3rd party, since your 3rd party candidate won’t win, and we have Obama who is going to do basically everything he can so Americans can get abortion on demand? Romney doesn’t actually support abortion and is not going to be a bad choice. Is it not true that to get Obama out of office, the only choice is to vote for Romney, who is a morally permissible choice?

I guess it really all revolves around precisely that - whether or not Romney is a morally permissible choice. I don’t he how he’s not.

Well. I think you know who I’m voting for. :thumbsup:

 

[johnnyjones]

I chose “Other”

I’m voting for Virgil Goode of the Constitution Party.

And it looks like 15% of people here are also voting for another choice besides Romney or Obama. So… don’t make fun of us! We have the freedom to vote for who best represents us without being mocked, ridiculed, blamed, harangued, threatened, or otherwise lambasted or by our fellow citizens.

It’s our right to vote. That right should be respected.

Thank you.

Virgil Goode is pro-life in ALL circumstances, just like the Catholic Church. My conscience is clean.

Who has zero chance of winning which gives a vote to the pro abortion president Obama. You can spin it 1 million ways but a wasted vote is a wasted vote.

I’m not mocking or lambasting you. Just pointing out a serious reality from one Catholic to another.

 

[GaryTaylor]

Romney, I seen enough of Obama.

My conscious wouldn’t allow me to vote for Obama.

 

[scipio337]

Except just going by what I’ve read I’m not certain “never acceptable” means Catholics can never ever vote for a candidate who supports abortion rights. As you probably know the introductory of your bishops’ citizenship guide clearly states they do not give a scorecard of issues nor direction on how to vote…

sciencedaily.com/articles/c/confirmation_bias.htm

 

[scipio337]

The other issues have no impact on me. I’ve never advocated abortion, euthenasia and I am already married and have been for years.

However since i’m still working, a persons track record on organized labor could have a negative impact on my employment future and as such its important to me…

“What’s in it for me?”

Good show, old sport!

 

[Lapey]

Not really interested in playing your game. I’m focused on forward not backward. And I don’t deal in not talking about other taxes just so I can say a percentage don’t pay income tax. To get conservatives to quit complaining if we must, I might entertain the lowest income earner paying 25 cebts, 50 cents or a buck just so for instance Romney and conservatives on CAF can’t keep complaining about someone not paying income tax, The upper incomes should at least go back to what President Obama has proposed. Those over a quarter of a million dollars a yr back to the rates of the Clinton yrs. Most of your list I don’t see as issues in this 21st century election… Of any that are, no.

Not much time, so I’ll answer quickly and short… First, this is no game. Tax policy is no game or wedge as Obama treats it. There are certain truths about taxation which hold true; one fact is, if you would tax at a 100% rate to all who make over your magic 250K you would not collect enough to pay the 6 trillion in debt which Obama has built, much less all the rest built by republicans and others.

Second, it’s time to see these issues, especially social issues, as what they are. They are not dem or rep, not conservative or liberal, they are right or wrong. There is no right to choose an abortion, it is legal, but no one has moral right to choose it.

Third, until major cuts in spending in all areas, the majority of people will not accept any tax increase…praise God! It’s not about the tax increase, it’s about the spending. We cannot survive on the path we are on. Both parties are leading us to a cliff; just the democrats are the ones with the pedal to the floor.

Lastly, my list was hypothetical but some are very legit for this election. But let’s keep it purely hypothetical; which of these would you consider a disqualifying position?

 

[Michael_Mayo]

Who has zero chance of winning which gives a vote to the pro abortion president Obama. You can spin it 1 million ways but a wasted vote is a wasted vote.

I get so tired of hearing that untruth.
No vote is wasted if it indicates *your * intention.
And why would it be anymore a vote for Obama than Romney?
It is a vote for Neither. That is the point.