Obama's day: National Prayer Breakfast

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Path_Finder said:
If one goes down that path, what it has to do with religion I don’t know,

But Obama said “God Bless Planned Parenthood”.

Yet, we know how many abortions a year happen in the United States, worse than racial strife, 3 days is worse than the racial strife in America and President Obama is a big supporter of so-called reproductive rights. Reverend Clennard Childress’ website speaks of this.

So President Obama supports worse.
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One must note likewise of what the Christian invaders did to Jews and Muslims in those wars and to the Eastern Church.
 
taongrasa said:
One must note likewise of what the Christian invaders did to Jews and Muslims in those wars and to the Eastern Church.
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Spain and Portugal were occupied for 700 years; did we miss that bit of history? By the Moors and Muslims, invaded Rome. The Old Testament, maybe we can go back over 2000 years.
 
Ridgerunner said:
In my mind, perhaps the worst part of Obama’s citation of the Crusades is that it affirms an entirely mistaken belief on that part of the Muslim world that’s Arabic. The Crusades were initiated at a time when the Turks were already destroying the vaunted Arab “Caliphate”. Ultimately, Turkic groups finished it off entirely and sent the Arab world into a desolate state from which it has never fully recovered.

It’s also true that the dying Fatimid caliphate had long allowed Christians access to the holy places and did not harm or harass Christian visitors or natives. It allowed Christian shrines and churches to operate as well as religious orders that tended to Christian pilgrims. Had the Seljuk Turks not seized the area, the Crusades would almost certainly never have happened. The Seljuks were cruel to Christian pilgrims and Arab Muslims and Christians alike.

And so, Obama picked the exactly wrong story to affirm; one that is a slander on Christians and which actually supports the idea that the cruel side of Islam (Seljuks yesterday, ISIS today) has a certain legitimacy because “Crusaders” are a never-to-be-forgotten threat to Arab Muslims.
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Part of the new history which is fiction. Its what the history channels do today, take one fact and inject opinion into it. Its also how our media by large is reporting. When you have 29% of the population who doesn’t know the vice presidents name then its no surprise distortion is a fact, and basically anything can be proposed and somewhat accepted, just as his party accepts this speech.
 
google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CB8QqQIwAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.nytimes.com%2F2015%2F02%2F07%2Fus%2Fobama-trying-to-add-context-to-speech-faces-backlash-over-crusades.html&ei=nrnVVILdC4abNrDDgrAC&usg=AFQjCNG0uSEY4FfyiZV-iL-_bNzyJKhiXw
WASHINGTON — President Obama [personally added] a reference to the Crusades in his speech this week at the National Prayer Breakfast, aides said, hoping to add context and nuance to his condemnation of Islamic terrorists by noting that people also “committed terrible deeds in the name of Christ.”
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But by purposely drawing the fraught historical comparison on Thursday, Mr. Obama ignited a firestorm on television and social media about the validity of his observations and the roots of religious conflicts that raged more than 800 years ago.
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Wall Street opinion…

google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=3&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CCMQqQIwAg&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.wsj.com%2Farticles%2Fobamas-crusades-1423256805&ei=nrnVVILdC4abNrDDgrAC&usg=AFQjCNEsfOAurM85pKNzOMShg4afssG3oQ
 
anthony022071 said:
Historians Weigh in on Obama’s Comparison of ISIS Militants to Medieval Christian Crusaders

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=12731021#post12731021

Catholic League’s Donohue: Faithless Obama ‘Believes in Nothing’

newsmax.com/Newsmax-Tv/Bill-Donohue-Catholic-League-Obama-Prayer-Breakfast/2015/02/06/id/623303/
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I applaud Donohue on characterizing Obama - “He believes in nothing, he stands for nothing, he is good for nothing.”

Yep. That is our president to a T. He is good at creating divisiveness.
 
GaryTaylor said:
google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CB8QqQIwAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.usatoday.com%2Fstory%2Ftheoval%2F2015%2F02%2F05%2Fobama-national-prayer-breakfast-dalai-lama%2F22911893%2F&ei=LH7TVOHfKoOoNv6DgNAD&usg=AFQjCNEWpWLjASHKPXUneG6KriO8VuWasQ&bvm=bv.85142067,d.eXY

He is speaking now. Have to wait to hear the context.
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Some perspective from a Feb 6 Washington Post article by J. Michaelson:

**Tens of thousands of people (both soldiers and civilians) were killed in the conquest of Jerusalem. The Crusaders themselves suffered; historians estimate that only one in 20 survived to even reach the Holy Land. It is estimated that 1.7 million people died in total.

And this is all at a time in which the world population was approximately 300 million — less than 5 percent its current total. Muslim extremists would have to kill 34 million people (Muslim and non-Muslim alike) to equal that death toll today. As horrific as the Islamic State’s brutal reign of terror has been, its death toll is estimated at around 20,000.**

HUGE difference in the numbers of deaths associated with ISIS and those associated with the Crusades. By mentioning the Crusades, Pres Obama used the nuclear option to make his point. It’s an age old problem and as the Pope said recently, all religions have extremists, even Christians. Glad Pres Obama didn’t mention those people who wrapped themselves in Christ when the KKK killed blacks here in the US (approx death toll 3500 although experts believe it’s a lot higher because deaths of murdered blacks often went unreported). Most Christians don’t condone KKK activities just like most Muslims don’t condone ISIS activities. Just because the KKK and ISIS say they act in the name of their god, we know better and we don’t hold Christianity and Islam to blame.

Also, glad the Pres didn’t mention that 17200+ victims of sex abuse by Catholic priests in the US (USCCB, March 2014). The number is far greater when you consider the abuse throughout the international church. Our church can’t wag a finger at any other religion because we can’t seem to keep it together ourselves. What we can do is support each other by keeping open lines of communication and by promoting through joint efforts a call for peace.
 
PeopleB4Things said:
Some perspective from a Feb 6 Washington Post article by J. Michaelson:

**Tens of thousands of people (both soldiers and civilians) were killed in the conquest of Jerusalem. The Crusaders themselves suffered; historians estimate that only one in 20 survived to even reach the Holy Land. It is estimated that 1.7 million people died in total.

And this is all at a time in which the world population was approximately 300 million — less than 5 percent its current total. Muslim extremists would have to kill 34 million people (Muslim and non-Muslim alike) to equal that death toll today. As horrific as the Islamic State’s brutal reign of terror has been, its death toll is estimated at around 20,000.**

HUGE difference in the numbers of deaths associated with ISIS and those associated with the Crusades. By mentioning the Crusades, Pres Obama used the nuclear option to make his point. It’s an age old problem and as the Pope said recently, all religions have extremists, even Christians. Glad Pres Obama didn’t mention those people who wrapped themselves in Christ when the KKK killed blacks here in the US (approx death toll 3500 although experts believe it’s a lot higher because deaths of murdered blacks often went unreported). Most Christians don’t condone KKK activities just like most Muslims don’t condone ISIS activities. Just because the KKK and ISIS say they act in the name of their god, we know better and we don’t hold Christianity and Islam to blame.

Also, glad the Pres didn’t mention that 17200+ victims of sex abuse by Catholic priests in the US (USCCB, March 2014). The number is far greater when you consider the abuse throughout the international church. Our church can’t wag a finger at any other religion because we can’t seem to keep it together ourselves. What we can do is support each other by keeping open lines of communication and by promoting through joint efforts a call for peace.
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Quoting numbers from the Washington Post does not help your claim that the President had a coherent point. A numerical argument may be made that on a per day basis, ISIS outstripped the Crusades in killing metrics. Or on a campaign basis. Or by comparing rates to the phase of the Moon. Besides, we would have to wait 196 years for a direct comparison. Also, your mention of victims of sex abuse by Catholic priests is similarly crippled. Abuse exists in Catholic, Protestant and secular organizations in roughly the same proportion; we are all breathing that same contaminated air. The only relevant fact is what is happening right at this moment, the animal savagery of ISIS, and how to stop it.
 
sps49 said:
I did not say that you viewed the Crusades as a blot on Christianity. I strongly suggested that you used selected perspective to virtually obscure the vulgar, clumsy and obvious equivalence that the President employed. That is your right, of course.
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I would argue that a lot of Christians and in particular, many Catholics, see the Crusades and the Inquisition as dark moments in our history. The reference made by the Pres tapped into that. He knows that there is nothing in the Gospels that condoned such a slaughter of children, women and men. Rape, pillaging, torture, death. It’s a part of who we are as Catholics. We can’t even pretend with any ounce of respect that the Crusades, the Inquisition and our recent sexual abuse of 17000+ US Catholic children are in any way in line with the tenets of our faith. We have a dirty and violent past, both long ago and recently. And we need to own it. What we should not own is when extremists try to wrap themselves in the cloaks of God as they set out on their own to assault and kill others. Just because a Christian kills another in the name of his faith, we do not condone his action nor take it into our collective souls of the Church. Just look at how many serial killers were Christian fundamentalists. We can’t take the hit for their actions just like Islam should not take the hit for ISIS. We’ve heard so many Islamic leaders call for peace, for ISIS to stop it’s rampage. We need to support these Islamic leaders in that call.

No God condones terror. No grievance justifies the taking of innocent lives, or the oppression of those who are weaker or fewer in number. And so, as people of faith, we are summoned to push back against those who try to distort our religion – any religion – for their own nihilistic ends.
 
7_Sorrows said:
I applaud Donohue on characterizing Obama - “He believes in nothing, he stands for nothing, he is good for nothing.”

Yep. That is our president to a T. He is good at creating divisiveness.
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Community organizer…stir up the masses…that’s O
 
sps49 said:
Quoting numbers from the Washington Post does not help your claim that the President had a coherent point. A numerical argument may be made that on a per day basis, ISIS outstripped the Crusades in killing metrics. Or on a campaign basis. Or by comparing rates to the phase of the Moon. Besides, we would have to wait 196 years for a direct comparison. Also, your mention of victims of sex abuse by Catholic priests is similarly crippled. Abuse exists in Catholic, Protestant and secular organizations in roughly the same proportion; we are all breathing that same contaminated air. The only relevant fact is what is happening right at this moment, the animal savagery of ISIS, and how to stop it.
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We as a church have a violent history. We’ve killed, raped and tortured children, women and men in the name of our God. We can’t spin that truth away. We need to own it, accept that and try to move forward. The sex abuse, the torture of Catholic children at the hands of our leaders, is something that still requires/demands our humility and our attention. Too many Catholic sitting in pews today were complicit in this atrocity because they did not speak up, they did not investigate when they were suspicious and they did not reach out to the victims. We tend to only blame the church leadership, but we all know the blame is far more reaching than that.

As to your comment about everyone’s abusing their kids at the same rate… well you know, that is absolutely no excuse. We condemn the assault and killing of innocents during the Crusades, during the Inquisition, with abortions, with executions, with euthanasia, with war and now with Islamic extremists because every life is a sacred gift from God. People tend to dismiss these things for whatever reason. I guess trying to minimize them let’s us sleep at night. But every death should haunt us. To say that the death and abuse tolls of our Church’s past and present are any less significant than what’s going on with ISIS is a sad commentary indeed.

I heard the argument that the Catholic faith, it’s teaching and it’s ability to guide the lives of its members, is ineffective. There is nothing in its moral teachings that would offer a protective shield against sex abuse when compared to the general population of non-religious people or the religious people of other faiths. I’ve also heard the argument that Catholic education 30-40-50-60 years ago was so bad that it could not effectively alter the moral compasses of its members any more effectively than those who did not have faith training or those attending other churches or faiths. That Catholic RE today is supposedly structured in such as way that it is more effective in preventing abuse. I’m not a sociologist and I can not speak to the assertions that abuse is common everywhere and that Catholic moral teachings are no more effective than no teaching at all. As a RE teacher, I just take great pains to ensure those in my faith care grow safely and securely in both body and soul.
 
PeopleB4Things said:
I would argue that a lot of Christians and in particular, many Catholics, see the Crusades and the Inquisition as dark moments in our history. The reference made by the Pres tapped into that. He knows that there is nothing in the Gospels that condoned such a slaughter of children, women and men. Rape, pillaging, torture, death. It’s a part of who we are as Catholics. We can’t even pretend with any ounce of respect that the Crusades, the Inquisition and our recent sexual abuse of 17000+ US Catholic children are in any way in line with the tenets of our faith. We have a dirty and violent past, both long ago and recently. And we need to own it. What we should not own is when extremists try to wrap themselves in the cloaks of God as they set out on their own to assault and kill others. Just because a Christian kills another in the name of his faith, we do not condone his action nor take it into our collective souls of the Church. Just look at how many serial killers were Christian fundamentalists. We can’t take the hit for their actions just like Islam should not take the hit for ISIS. We’ve heard so many Islamic leaders call for peace, for ISIS to stop it’s rampage. We need to support these Islamic leaders in that call.

No God condones terror. No grievance justifies the taking of innocent lives, or the oppression of those who are weaker or fewer in number. And so, as people of faith, we are summoned to push back against those who try to distort our religion – any religion – for their own nihilistic ends.
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Bull.

If it wasn’t for the Crusades there is a good chance the Muslims would have conquered Europe. No Pope condoned acts of terror. The Crusades met every criteria of just war doctrine.

The Inquisition was directed at Catholics, so what’s the point of bringing it up?

This sort of stupid handwringing might have been acceptable when the answers were not easily available. Now it is inexcusable.
 
PeopleB4Things said:
We as a church have a violent history. We’ve killed, raped and tortured children, women and men in the name of our God. We can’t spin that truth away. We need to own it, accept that and try to move forward. The sex abuse, the torture of Catholic children at the hands of our leaders, is something that still requires/demands our humility and our attention. Too many Catholic sitting in pews today were complicit in this atrocity because they did not speak up, they did not investigate when they were suspicious and they did not reach out to the victims. We tend to only blame the church leadership, but we all know the blame is far more reaching than that.

As to your comment about everyone’s abusing their kids at the same rate… well you know, that is absolutely no excuse. We condemn the assault and killing of innocents during the Crusades, during the Inquisition, with abortions, with executions, with euthanasia, with war and now with Islamic extremists because every life is a sacred gift from God. People tend to dismiss these things for whatever reason. I guess trying to minimize them let’s us sleep at night. But every death should haunt us. To say that the death and abuse tolls of our Church’s past and present are any less significant than what’s going on with ISIS is a sad commentary indeed.

I heard the argument that the Catholic faith, it’s teaching and it’s ability to guide the lives of its members, is ineffective. There is nothing in its moral teachings that would offer a protective shield against sex abuse when compared to the general population of non-religious people or the religious people of other faiths. I’ve also heard the argument that Catholic education 30-40-50-60 years ago was so bad that it could not effectively alter the moral compasses of its members any more effectively than those who did not have faith training or those attending other churches or faiths. That Catholic RE today is supposedly structured in such as way that it is more effective in preventing abuse. I’m not a sociologist and I can not speak to the assertions that abuse is common everywhere and that Catholic moral teachings are no more effective than no teaching at all. As a RE teacher, I just take great pains to ensure those in my faith care grow safely and securely in both body and soul.
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Actually the Church didn’t do any of this. We don’t need to own up don’t need to own up to anything nor do we need to defend ourselves against scurrilous charges.

What we do need is a leader who recognizes the threat of radical Islam and quits trying to minimize it with the old , tired “everybody did it” canard.
 
SWolf said:
Bull.

If it wasn’t for the Crusades there is a good chance the Muslims would have conquered Europe. No Pope condoned acts of terror. The Crusades met every criteria of just war doctrine.

The Inquisition was directed at Catholics, so what’s the point of bringing it up?

This sort of stupid handwringing might have been acceptable when the answers were not easily available. Now it is inexcusable.
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We can spin the torture, rape and killing during our Church’s past as well as ISIS can spin it’s actions. The majority of Islamic leaders do not condone the actions of ISIS. Can we say that of our church when it came to the Crusades and Inquisition? Sadly, no. And I doubt you’ll find may Catholics today who think that the rape, killing and torture of children, women and men for any reason is in line with our faith. No excuse for the Crusades and in Inquisition can stand up to the truth of the Gospels. To say that the Crusades and the Inquisition were necessary for our faith to survive is a horrific deconstruction of our beautiful faith. I’m sure that Jesus would rather his church go down in flames than allow a child to be raped and killed in his name. If we can spin the immorality of the Crusades and Inquisition, there is no atrocity we can’t condone.

Wikipedia - The Inquisition is a group of institutions within the judicial system of the Roman Catholic Church whose aim is to combat heresy
 
PeopleB4Things said:
We as a church have a violent history. We’ve killed, raped and tortured children, women and men in the name of our God. We can’t spin that truth away. We need to own it, accept that and try to move forward. The sex abuse, the torture of Catholic children at the hands of our leaders, is something that still requires/demands our humility and our attention. Too many Catholic sitting in pews today were complicit in this atrocity because they did not speak up, they did not investigate when they were suspicious and they did not reach out to the victims. We tend to only blame the church leadership, but we all know the blame is far more reaching than that.

As to your comment about everyone’s abusing their kids at the same rate… well you know, that is absolutely no excuse. We condemn the assault and killing of innocents during the Crusades, during the Inquisition, with abortions, with executions, with euthanasia, with war and now with Islamic extremists because every life is a sacred gift from God. People tend to dismiss these things for whatever reason. I guess trying to minimize them let’s us sleep at night. But every death should haunt us. To say that the death and abuse tolls of our Church’s past and present are any less significant than what’s going on with ISIS is a sad commentary indeed.
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I see your point. However, you have chosen to interpret my comment to mean that I am indifferent to this plight, rendering your original point useless. I remind you that it was your good self that initiated comparison by contrast, at least numerically, via the Washing Post article, so courting outrage at this point is irrational. I do not dismisses the fact that abuse exists, I dismiss your conclusions.
PeopleB4Things said:
I heard the argument that the Catholic faith, it’s teaching and it’s ability to guide the lives of its members, is ineffective. There is nothing in its moral teachings that would offer a protective shield against sex abuse when compared to the general population of non-religious people or the religious people of other faiths. I’ve also heard the argument that Catholic education 30-40-50-60 years ago was so bad that it could not effectively alter the moral compasses of its members any more effectively than those who did not have faith training or those attending other churches or faiths. That Catholic RE today is supposedly structured in such as way that it is more effective in preventing abuse. I’m not a sociologist and I can not speak to the assertions that abuse is common everywhere and that Catholic moral teachings are no more effective than no teaching at all. As a RE teacher, I just take great pains to ensure those in my faith care grow safely and securely in both body and soul.
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Congratulations, you are trying to live up to the faith as much as the rest of us. However, your moral equivalence framework is found wanting.
 
qui_est_ce said:
He wasn’t wrong, but he’s not adding to the dialogue. The Crusades were almost 1,000 years ago.

“Before we get on our high horse.” What exactly is he trying to accomplish except more divisiveness? Because Crusaders did it 1,000 years ago, it’s ok for ISIS to do it today?

And, technically, we were defending the Holy Land against the murderous Moslems, who started that war.

He clearly shows lack of understanding of history.
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I didn’t hear anything from Obama that indicated he condoned ISIS and its actions. What I did hear was our need to look within ourselves.
 
sps49 said:
Quoting numbers from the Washington Post does not help your claim that the President had a coherent point. A numerical argument may be made that on a per day basis, ISIS outstripped the Crusades in killing metrics. Or on a campaign basis. Or by comparing rates to the phase of the Moon. Besides, we would have to wait 196 years for a direct comparison. Also, your mention of victims of sex abuse by Catholic priests is similarly crippled. Abuse exists in Catholic, Protestant and secular organizations in roughly the same proportion; we are all breathing that same contaminated air. The only relevant fact is what is happening right at this moment, the animal savagery of ISIS, and how to stop it.
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👍 Well said!
 
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