Obtaining God's Forgiveness

[jcrichton]

Okay. But what I have within my grasp to interrogate, is a collection of writings by the Apostles. In embracing “the authority of Scriptures”, the Catholic Church agrees there are verses authoritative.

Hi!

…I think that this is another one of those “oh so close…” roads… yes! The Church Holds that the Word of God is, well, the Word of God; hence, it contains God Revelation and Commands… she holds that Scriptures is authoritative but that we must understand Scriptures through Church’s Teachings (Apostolic Teaching).

We find the Apostles fighting heresies as even prior to the Writings of the New Testament… Arianism and other heresies were introduced (resurfaced) and sought to change the Gospels–people would use Scriptures to make those heretical claims because they had rejected Apostolic Teaching.

During the past five hundred years we have experienced myriads of splintering of the Body because men have determined that “sola” Scriptura gave them the authority to reinvent Christ’s Body according to their “correct” interpretation of “authoritative” Scriptures… I think that you can understand why Catholics are suspect when the issue of “authority/authoritative” is engaged…

Our understanding is different from the Protestants’ understanding where “stand alone” is the currency of authoritative passages; we submit to the experience and practice of the Magisterium of the Church rather than “xyz” theologian/scholar/preacher…

Yes — however, I was furious when TV preacher Joyce Meyer spoke on Luke10:17-19, and totally missed verse 20, the key!

Jesus won ALL our battles from the Cross; if only we pursue HIM, and let His overcoming displace our sinfulness. The closer we are to Him (wait, I said that before!)
Exactly!

This is why it is so dangerous to go it alone–remember the “the wages of sin is death” quote? This was so prevalent in the past… in NY and other places it was almost an obligatory preaching… but what about the rest of that verse?:

But the grace of God, life everlasting, in Christ Jesus our Lord.

(Romans 6:23b)
Isn’t it more important to preach about God’s Mercy and Love… about Hope for all of mankind?

…I suspect that putting the fear of God into people fills the coffers more than letting people know that:

8 Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners: and purify your hearts, ye double minded. 9 Be afflicted, and mourn, and weep: let your laughter be turned into mourning, and your joy into sorrow. 10 Be humbled in the sight of the Lord, and he will exalt you.

(St. James 4:8-10)
‘…what? …you mean I don’t need to fear God?’ :dancing::dancing::dancing:

He’s a real person; so is the Spirit. Do you know I tell many people that if they really do want to know the truth, ASK Him? I am completely convicted in my heart and spirit that is a valid challenge. For I myself once did that – “God, are You real, and do you want me?” Anyone who asks Him and means it, He will answer

!
Yes, this is the relationship… but that Relationship also Calls for Fellowship of the Body (1 Corinthians 13, 14 & 15).

It’s my understanding that the Spirit was not personally available as such, until then. In Jn14 "When I will go I will send

a helper, the Holy Spirit…"
…actually the Church had already Received the Holy Spirit during the Great Commission:

21 Again Jesus said, “Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you.” 22 And with that he breathed on them and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit. 23 If you forgive anyone’s sins, their sins are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven.”

(St. John 20:21-23)
…but what I meant to convey is that there was a purpose for Christ’s Institution of the Church and that the indwelling (abiding) was not meant as a free-for-all practice (Acts 8:20-24)… and that the Believers were compelled, by the Holy Spirit, to gather around the Apostles: One Body.

Well, there is an “amen” SMILEY here, so it’s not completely offensive!

…remember, that’s just me–I doubt that many have read that passage or understood it in such severity as I.

Yet, regardless, when people say/think “Amen” they are actually pronouncing a Blessing!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[Gadgeteer]

Hi, G!

…it’s been a while… but I have been chastised for responding when another person was being addressed…

Not by me!

…I think this is the only place where “monopoly” is a good thing–if there are no other contributors! The Word of God is not meant to be set aside or in a closet!

…though man does fall into folly by equating “good” or “goodness” which is practiced for self-gain as good works… that’s why Jesus warned not to be seek man’s praise but rather that we yield to God’s demand of Justice (St. Matthew 6 & 5:20).

One particular passage that seems troubling, because of the grave demands, is St. Luke’s 14:26-27:
26 If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple. 27 And whosoever doth not carry his cross and come after me, cannot be my disciple.

…so until and unless we are willing to Come to God in such a way we cannot become Vessels for God’s Glorification and the Edification of Christ’s Body!

Consider two images:

1. I tuck Jesus under my arm, and stride confidently through my life.
2. I crawl into JESUS’ arms, and He carries ME forward…

Which image reflects what Jesus accomplished? You know I’m going to lean towards the second. And it “falls short” – because what we have is not passive, we do have to “pick up our feet and walk”. But I’m thinking of Gal2:20:

“I am crucified with Christ, it is no longer I who live but Christ lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh, I live by faith in the One who loved me and delivered Himself up for me.”

Is our perspective receiving His indwelling presence, and moving our feet by His direction?

“Commit your works to the LORD
And your plans will be established.”
“The mind of man plans his way,
But the LORD directs his steps.” Prov16:3, 9

That’s the issue with me; which is “cause”, and which is “effect”?

…we “be holy”, by drawing near to HIM. James4:6-10!!!

…which is a big fat whole (hole?) in that confused theology… no wonder some wanted to remove St. James from the Canon!

James says the same thing as everyone else. The book I wrote started out as “OSNAS” — towards that, an appendix summarizes four entire letters; James is one. In 1:14-16 “beloved brethren” absolutely can be deceived to “thanatos-physical-and-spiritual-death”. In 5:19-20 a real brother can wander away from the faith, and IF he’s led back then his soul is saved (again) and his sins covered/forgiven.

One cannot wander away from faith he’s never had, nor can he be led back to where he’s never been!!!

How can man draw (come) near to God if he is not able to exercise his freewill to choose to be Obedient to God’s Call?

Exactly. Now, we — the saved — can SIN. James says in what we just read (1:14-16) “each of us is tempted when enticed and carried away by our own lust. Lust births sin, and sin brings death (thanatos!). Do not be deceived, beloved brethren!”

The same free will by which we CAME to Jesus, can cause us to fall if we are not diligent in our fellowship with Him. Which is why I harp on verses like Rom1:16 — Robertson defers to Lightfoot, noting that the two variants of “pistis-faith”, intends “from faith-the-start, to faith-the-goal”.

“The righteousness of God is revealed from BEGINNING faith, to ENDING faith; as it is written, the righteous shall live BY faith.”

How we begin is our choice; so is how we end. In between, how we walk determines how we end!

“Therefore as you have received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk in Him,
having been firmly rooted and now being built up in Him and established in your faith, just as you were instructed, and overflowing with gratitude.
See to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception, according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary principles of the world, rather than according to Christ.” Col2:6-9

Walk in Jesus, guard against being deceived away from Him. PDC, no?

 

[Gadgeteer]

Hi!

…because we are in Fellowship with Christ we have at our disposal that which He Brought to the Church… which includes the Sacraments and that purification spoken of in 1 Corinthians 3:10-15–when a Believer is not able (or stubbornly refuses) to avail him/herself of the Sacrament of Confession (unexpected death or incapacity), after sinning against God…

“Stubbornly refuses” – does that reflect one who is really submitted to God, and indwelt by Jesus and the Spirit?

…or the residual of imperfect Contrition (Confession due to fear of death or of loss of Heaven instead of regretting having hurt God through the act/s of unrighteousness) that/those unconfessed sins or rebellion must still be purged since nothing impure can enter into the New Jerusalem (Heaven).

My perception (not that you asked), is similar to many people, I believe including Catholics, like the view about the Thief on the cross. He was considered water-baptized, because he had INTENT. He also had no time to do good works; but again there was intent.

Our intent regarding repentance, is that it is a WALK. Forgiveness is not a license to sin; nor are we condemned by any sins. Our fellowship with Christ and the Spirit compels sins to the surface so we actively confess, and He is faithful and just to forgive us and cleanse us from all unrighteousness. What if we die before we actually say the words? Here is where I perceive “intent”; repentance is a walk, we do not practice sin, every sin damages fellowship with Him, grieving us to fall at His feet begging not only forgiveness, but to truly empower us to resist that sin the next time.

It is arguable that the purging could happen instantly or (since there’s no linear time for God) from the moment we experience the first death until the Day of the Lord.

As you said, true repentance fulfills 1Jn1:8-9. We are forgiven. And true repentance means that we do not continue doing the same sin over and over again…

…yes, but the Call to perfection does not equate “being perfect;” that is, though we are Called to put away the old man (the flesh and its appetites) it does not mean that we actually are able to simply put on the new man (the Spirit) and remain sinless for the rest of our lives…

Every day is a choice to walk in Him, or to sin! He understands we are WEAK. And — we do not excuse ourselves because of weakness, because we have experienced HIS heart, there is awakened in us a love of RIGHTEOUSNESS; sin becomes abhorrent even if only because it displeases Him, Whom we love.

…there really is a heartfelt desire NOT to sin; our failures can destroy us, or they can fulfill what Peter taught in 2:1-11, Paul in 2Cor13:5, and others. When weakness is exposed (and we fail to take God’s gracious escapes for sin), these can mature us that we grow stronger towards Him, and stronger against sin.

…hence the admonition to the Believers to persevere in the Faith… to be Doers of the Word not just listeners… to Walk in the Light!

Yes. And – walking forward safe in His arms, He directing our steps; not us walking with Him tucked under our arm if He’s ever needed.

…this misunderstanding is why man fails; it is not about fighting against sin or “knowing” about the Good News but of abiding in Christ… if we abide in Christ, Christ will abide in us (St. John 15:4-8)–again, it is not about Christ dying for all sin (BC thru AD and into the Parousia) but about being the Temple of the Living God:

Exactly that; intimately indwelt by the real persons of Jesus and the Spirit.

You and I are saying exactly the same things.

Christ’s Call is that we Love Him; we show that we Love Him if we Obey His Command!

The Greatest Commandment is “to love God” — in that, we are to:

“Choose LIFE, by loving the Lord your God, by obeying His voice and walking in His statutes, and by holding fast to Him. For this is your life and the length of your days.”

Again — not “us walking with Him tucked under our arms”, but truly “it is no longer I who live but Christ lives in me; and I live by faith in Him.”

“He guides me in the paths of righteousness
For His name’s sake.”

That’s it – we commit our ways to the Lord, and He directs our steps. We answer the command to love Him — not once, but every day. We guard against deception, for He has become our heart, and He has awakened in us a thirst for righteousness.

This is our gospel, this is our Jesus; this is His suffering to give us what we were too weak to achieve. This is our ACTIVE fellowship, positively moving our feet as He directs.

 

[Gadgeteer]

Hi!

…I think that this is another one of those “oh so close…” roads… yes! The Church Holds that the Word of God is, well, the Word of God; hence, it contains God Revelation and Commands… she holds that Scriptures is authoritative but that we must understand Scriptures through Church’s Teachings (Apostolic Teaching).

Della said the same thing. I operate from the idea that “there are some things clearly stated”. 1Cor2:14 is taken by some to prove that “unregenerated men cannot believe and be saved, understanding of spiritual things must come BEFORE belief”.

I stated that verses 12-13 assert people must be saved BEFORE and in order to GET those very things. Then I looked up the “United States Conference of Catholic Bishops”, whose commentary reads “Spirit teaches spiritual people …what God has done in them.”

Complete agreement that verses 12-13 speaks of SAVED people, being taught spiritual things".

We find the Apostles fighting heresies as even prior to the Writings of the New Testament… Arianism and other heresies were introduced (resurfaced) and sought to change the Gospels–people would use Scriptures to make those heretical claims because they had rejected Apostolic Teaching.

Is it possible they twisted verses, the same way RT’s do? In debating RT’s, I wrote down every verse I’ve seen used towards “Sovereign Predestined Salvation”. As I looked up each verse, I found context clearly opposing the idea of “predestined election”. In Jeremiah13:23, RT’s think we can no more turn to God than can a leopard change his spots, or an Ethiopian change his skin. But the last verse of the chapter, “How long will you remain unclean?” That cannot be asked of someone who can NOT change! And now other verses raise their hands shouting to be included — “If a man CLEANSES HIMSELF from these (wicked) things, he will be an honorable vessel, sanctified, useful to his master.” 2Tim2:21.

And — Rev22:14, “Blessed are those who wash their robes, so that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter by the gates into the city.”

I looked up the Bishops’ view on Jer13:27, 2Tim2:21, or Rev22:14. On 2Tim2:21,

* [2:22]
Those who call on the Lord: those who believe in Christ and worship him as Lord, i.e., Christians (Acts 9:14–16, 20–21; Rom 10:12–13; cf. 2 Tm 2:19, literally, “Everyone who names the name of the Lord”).

And that is corroboration with what I said.

During the past five hundred years we have experienced myriads of splintering of the Body because men have determined that “sola” Scriptura gave them the authority to reinvent Christ’s Body according to their “correct” interpretation of “authoritative” Scriptures… I think that you can understand why Catholics are suspect when the issue of “authority/authoritative” is engaged…

I really wish everyone here could get a copy of “Counterfeits At Your Door”, by Bjornstad. It’s outta print, but excellent.

“No one who counterfeits money uses fluorescent pink ink, or prints on sandpaper, or uses the face of Mickey Mouse. The point of counterfeiting is to fool people into accepting the fake, as genuine. satan is the master counterfeiter; he knows what he promotes is false, so he crumples it, rubs dirt and coffee grounds into it, all to pass it off as genuine. But the best way to detect counterfeit bills is to become familiar with the genuine. When one gets a ‘feel’ for real money, it’s easier to detect fakes.”

Over the years I’ve been writing this book, I’ve been making connections and correlations between verses (as I showed above with Jer13:27, 2Tim2:21, and Rev22:14). There are SO MANY connections and correlations, all of the letters are saying the same things, because they’re all written by the Apostles who had the same personal teacher Jesus. If we look up more and more understandings from the “Council of Bishops”, I’m certain we’ll see more corroboration than not. This then promotes the idea that “Scripture does have clear teachings” — when one learns more and more passages, he or she begins to see how they mirror each other and teach the same principles.

I submit “heresies” proliferate because people are not familiar enough with the genuine to detect the counterfeit. I’ve certainly proven that with Reformed Theology!

 

[Gadgeteer]

Our understanding is different from the Protestants’ understanding where “stand alone” is the currency of authoritative passages; we submit to the experience and practice of the Magisterium of the Church rather than “xyz” theologian/scholar/preacher…

So far I have not seen major difference between things I’ve asserted that “Scripture says”, and what the commentary by the Council of Bishops has asserted.

I told you, Catholics are not going to hate my book!

Exactly!

This is why it is so dangerous to go it alone–

The question is whether or not there are facts stated so clearly in Scripture as to not be open to interpretation. Again – those who claim 1Cor2:14 “proves regeneration (and understanding-things) must precede salvation” — cannot explain verse 12. Salvation comes before understanding-the-things. It’s not dangerous to simply read Paul’s direct and clear statement; in no way can “receive-the-Spirit” not mean salvation, and in no way can “know-things” precede “receive-the-Spirit”. Paul only allowed one meaning; and it ain’t “Sovereign Predestined Salvation” (monergistic heart-change/understanding, before belief and salvation).

remember the “the wages of sin is death” quote? This was so prevalent in the past… in NY and other places it was almost an obligatory preaching… but what about the rest of that verse?:

Isn’t it more important to preach about God’s Mercy and Love… about Hope for all of mankind?

Love is what reaches the world; He is not a God of condemnation — “God did not send the Son to condemn the world, but so that (because of love) the world might be saved THROUGH Him.”

…I suspect that putting the fear of God into people fills the coffers more than letting people know that:

‘…what? …you mean I don’t need to fear God?’

No – not in the “terror” sense. God is love; there is no fear in love, for fear involves punishment, and he who fears is not perfected in love.

…yet, “fear” meaning reverence, is absolutely taught — often.

Yes, this is the relationship… but that Relationship also Calls for Fellowship of the Body (1 Corinthians 13, 14 & 15).

…actually the Church had already Received the Holy Spirit during the Great Commission:

…but what I meant to convey is that there was a purpose for Christ’s Institution of the Church and that the indwelling (abiding) was not meant as a free-for-all practice (Acts 8:20-24)… and that the Believers were compelled, by the Holy Spirit, to gather around the Apostles: One Body.

When Jesus comes, there will be no more divisions. Until then, those who claim Jesus as Lord, fellowship together, celebrating what is in common and tolerating difference.

…as you and I have been doing…

 

[Gadgeteer]

The question is whether or not there are facts stated so clearly in Scripture as to not be open to interpretation. Again – those who claim 1Cor2:14 “proves regeneration (and understanding-things) must precede salvation” — cannot explain verse 12. Salvation comes before understanding-the-things. It’s not dangerous to simply read Paul’s direct and clear statement; in no way can “receive-the-Spirit” not mean salvation, and in no way can “know-things” precede “receive-the-Spirit”. Paul only allowed one meaning; and it ain’t “Sovereign Predestined Salvation” (monergistic heart-change/understanding, before belief and salvation).

You know, God has led me in specific directions in writing this book. He sent a Jehovah’s Witness so my treatment of Rev22:12-16 would be more thorough (and I added the connection between Rev21:6, and Jn4:14). Then just a day or two ago I wrote on the misuse of “proskyneo”, where Watchtower changes it at times into “obeisance” trying to deny that Jesus accepted WORSHIP.

I think clearly I should do a paragraph on “authority”, showing that some verses are so clear that only one meaning is possible; in these cases we do find the Bishops saying the same thing. My whole book is based on the premise that “we can establish spiritual absolutes from Scripture” — each section lists nearly every verse adherents use, and then examines each verse in context. In the “Universalism” section, I attended Carlton Pearson’s lecture, and wrote down the verses he cited. Only two verses resist explanation; Robertson concurs, “no one knows what Peter meant.” But there’s plenty in the rest of Scripture to deny that “everyone will end up in Heaven”.

No, they won’t; those who die in their sins, perish; and it’s for-ever.



Pearson’s motivation was that his father died apart from Jesus; it was “great comfort” thinking his Dad was really going to be in Heaven. I’m really sorry, Carlton — those who do not have Jesus when life ends, just aren’t going to get through Heaven’s gates.

“It is appointed once for men to die, and after this comes judgment.”
“Those whose names were not found written in the Lamb’s Book of Life, were cast into the lake of fire.”
“This is the Second Death…”

We all choose, so did your Dad. We grieve for those we love, who will never be with us again. Christianity at its heart — is a PARTY. There’s nothing about “ramming our religion down anyone’s throats”. No, Scripture calls it a “wedding feast” — those things were noisy, and joyful. You are invited, everyone. You don’t have to come – if you don’t want to, we’ll miss you. But if you come, then we get — YOU — the pleasure of your company, forever. Come, rejoice with us in His presence, in His joy, forever! Will you?

And that’s what Christianity is; a celebration, of love.

 

[jcrichton]

Consider two images:

1. I tuck Jesus under my arm, and stride confidently through my life.
2. I crawl into JESUS’ arms, and He carries ME forward…

Which image reflects what Jesus accomplished? You know I’m going to lean towards the second. And it “falls short” – because what we have is not passive, we do have to “pick up our feet and walk”. But I’m thinking of Gal2:20:

“I am crucified with Christ, it is no longer I who live but Christ lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh, I live by faith in the One who loved me and delivered Himself up for me.”

Is our perspective receiving His indwelling presence, and moving our feet by His direction?

“Commit your works to the LORD
And your plans will be established.”
“The mind of man plans his way,
But the LORD directs his steps.” Prov16:3, 9

That’s the issue with me; which is “cause”, and which is “effect”?

Hi!

…yeah, both scenarios depict a comfort zone to which Christ never Called His Disciples:

17 These things I command you, that you love one another. 18 If the world hate you, know ye, that it hath hated me before you… 21 But all these things they will do to you for my name’s sake: because they know not him who sent me. 22 If I had not come, and spoken to them, they would not have sin; but now they have no excuse for their sin. 23 He that hateth me, hateth my Father also… They hated me without cause.

(St. John 15:18-25)
Jesus Commands that we Emulate Him (Abide in HIM)–one cannot claim to be of the Light if one does not Walk (Abide) in the Light!

James says the same thing as everyone else. The book I wrote started out as “OSNAS” — towards that, an appendix summarizes four entire letters; James is one. In 1:14-16 “beloved brethren” absolutely can be deceived to “thanatos-physical-and-spiritual-death”. In 5:19-20 a real brother can wander away from the faith, and IF he’s led back then his soul is saved (again) and his sins covered/forgiven.

One cannot wander away from faith he’s never had, nor can he be led back to where he’s never been!!!

…yes, but, to me, it seems that he is more succinct: ‘resist the devil’ (no more ‘the devil made me do it,’–the devil can be resisted) and ‘he will flee from you’ (yeah no more ‘blinded by tricks of the devil’–he has no hold on us); ‘get near/close to God and he will get/come close to you’ (no more ‘I don’t know how to get closer to God’ syndrome); and the lovely: ‘greater is He that is in you than he that is in the world’; WOW, what a smack-down! Satan has no power over the Believers cause only God can ABIDE in the Believers!

…St. James is right on point: man is able to cooperate in God’s Salvific Plan!

Exactly. Now, we — the saved — can SIN. James says in what we just read (1:14-16) “each of us is tempted when enticed and carried away by our own lust. Lust births sin, and sin brings death (thanatos!). Do not be deceived, beloved brethren!”

The same free will by which we CAME to Jesus, can cause us to fall if we are not diligent in our fellowship with Him. Which is why I harp on verses like Rom1:16 — Robertson defers to Lightfoot, noting that the two variants of “pistis-faith”, intends “from faith-the-start, to faith-the-goal”.

“The righteousness of God is revealed from BEGINNING faith, to ENDING faith; as it is written, the righteous shall live BY faith.”

How we begin is our choice; so is how we end. In between, how we walk determines how we end!

“Therefore as you have received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk in Him,
having been firmly rooted and now being built up in Him and established in your faith, just as you were instructed, and overflowing with gratitude.
See to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception, according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary principles of the world, rather than according to Christ.” Col2:6-9

Walk in Jesus, guard against being deceived away from Him. PDC, no?
…yes!, this Walk in Jesus demonstrates man’s freewill cooperating with God’s Grace:

27 Give not place to the devil. 28 He that stole, let him now steal no more; but rather let him labour, working with his hands the thing which is good, that he may have something to give to him that suffereth need. 29 Let no evil speech proceed from your mouth; but that which is good, to the edification of faith, that it may administer grace to the hearers. 30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God: whereby you are sealed unto the day of redemption. 31 Let all bitterness, and anger, and indignation, and clamour, and blasphemy, be put away from you, with all malice. 32 And be ye kind one to another; merciful, forgiving one another, even as God hath forgiven you in Christ.

(Ephesians 4:27-32)
…and how clear is Word about predestined damnation and man’s inability to cooperate with God’s Grace?:

9 For God hath not appointed us unto wrath, but unto the purchasing of salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ

, 10 Who died for us; that, whether we watch or sleep, we may live together with him. 11 For which cause comfort one another; and edify one another, as you also do. (1 Thessalonians 5:9-11)
…sometimes I wish I had a “time machine” so that I could go back and smack some of those “theologians” on the head… right when they are about to ink their error and claim “revelation of the Holy Spirit!” :banghead::banghead::banghead:

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

“Stubbornly refuses” – does that reflect one who is really submitted to God, and indwelt by Jesus and the Spirit?

Hi!

I have come across Believers (both Catholics and non) that presume that they do not need to Confess their sins; they follow Luther’s cue that a “Believer” can sin thousands of times daily and his/her only toil is what to have for lunch or whatsoever… they feel that they are not accountable for anything they do/have done.

My perception (not that you asked), is similar to many people, I believe including Catholics, like the view about the Thief on the cross. He was considered water-baptized, because he had INTENT. He also had no time to do good works; but again there was intent.

Our intent

regarding repentance, is that it is a WALK. Forgiveness is not a license to sin; nor are we condemned by any sins. Our fellowship with Christ and the Spirit compels sins to the surface so we actively confess, and He is faithful and just to forgive us and cleanse us from all unrighteousness. What if we die before we actually say the words? Here is where I perceive “intent”; repentance is a walk, we do not practice sin, every sin damages fellowship with Him, grieving us to fall at His feet begging not only forgiveness, but to truly empower us to resist that sin the next time.
(I think that the criminal did offer works–in the form of recognizing his and the other’s unrighteousness, Jesus’ being Just, and his apologetics.)

…here’s where Fellowship trumps words:

26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmity. For we know not what we should pray for as we ought; but the Spirit himself asketh for us with unspeakable groanings. 27 And he that searcheth the hearts, knoweth what the Spirit desireth; because he asketh for the saints according to God.

(Romans 8:26-27)
Yet, this does not mean that we can void/deceive God’s Plan (PDC)–the Holy Spirit searches our innermost being rejecting unrighteousness or embracing that which is of God.

As you said, true repentance fulfills 1Jn1:8-9. We are forgiven. And true repentance means that we do not

continue doing the same sin over and over again…

Every day is a choice to walk in Him, or to sin! He understands we are WEAK. And — we do not excuse ourselves because of weakness, because we have experienced HIS heart, there is awakened in us a love of RIGHTEOUSNESS; sin becomes abhorrent even if only because it displeases Him, Whom we love.

…there really is a heartfelt desire NOT to sin; our failures can destroy us, or they can fulfill what Peter taught in 2:1-11, Paul in 2Cor13:5, and others. When weakness is exposed (and we fail to take God’s gracious escapes for sin), these can mature us that we grow stronger towards Him, and stronger against sin.
I concur… have you ever found yourself in a situation where sin (temptation/opportunity) comes at out of nowhere?

…the Walk is like our biceps that have to be engaged… gradually the Walk turns into involuntary muscle, with the Grace of God and man’s control–this is the path that leads to sainthood: ‘be Holy, for I AM HOLY!’

Yes. And – walking forward safe in His arms, He directing our steps; not us walking with Him tucked under our arm if He’s ever needed.

Exactly that; intimately indwelt by the real persons of Jesus and the Spirit.

You and I are saying exactly the same things.

The Greatest Commandment is “to love God” — in that, we are to:

"Choose LIFE, by loving the Lord your God, by obeying His voice and walking in His statutes, and by holding fast to Him.

For this is your life and the length of your days."

Again — not “us walking with Him tucked under our arms”, but truly “it is no longer I who live but Christ lives in me; and I live by faith in Him.”

“He guides me in the paths of righteousness
For His name’s sake.”

That’s it – we commit our ways to the Lord, and He directs our steps. We answer the command to love Him — not once, but every day. We guard against deception, for He has become our heart, and He has awakened in us a thirst for righteousness.

This is our gospel, this is our Jesus; this is His suffering to give us what we were too weak to achieve. This is our ACTIVE fellowship, positively moving our feet as He directs.
It is St. John’s Walk in the Light! Our Fellowship in Christ implies Love of God, self, and neighbor and edifying ourselves and the Body of Christ!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

Della said the same thing. I operate from the idea that “there are some things clearly stated”. 1Cor2:14 is taken by some to prove that “unregenerated men cannot believe and be saved, understanding of spiritual things must come BEFORE belief”.

I stated that verses 12-13 assert people must be saved BEFORE and in order to GET those very things. Then I looked up the “United States Conference of Catholic Bishops”, whose commentary reads “Spirit teaches spiritual people …what God has done in them.”

Complete agreement that verses 12-13 speaks of SAVED people, being taught spiritual things".

Is it possible they twisted verses, the same way RT’s do? In debating RT’s, I wrote down every verse I’ve seen used towards “Sovereign Predestined Salvation”. As I looked up each verse, I found context clearly opposing the idea of “predestined election”. In Jeremiah13:23, RT’s think we can no more turn to God than can a leopard change his spots, or an Ethiopian change his skin. But the last verse of the chapter, “How long will you remain unclean?” That cannot be asked of someone who can NOT change! And now other verses raise their hands shouting to be included — “If a man CLEANSES HIMSELF from these (wicked) things, he will be an honorable vessel, sanctified, useful to his master.” 2Tim2:21.

And — Rev22:14, “Blessed are those who wash their robes, so that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter by the gates into the city.”

I looked up the Bishops’ view on Jer13:27, 2Tim2:21, or Rev22:14. On 2Tim2:21,

And that is corroboration with what I said.

Over the years I’ve been writing this book, I’ve been making connections and correlations between verses (as I showed above with Jer13:27, 2Tim2:21, and Rev22:14)… teacher Jesus. If we look up more and more understandings from the “Council of Bishops”, I’m certain we’ll see more corroboration than not. This then promotes the idea that “Scripture does have clear teachings” — when one learns more and more passages, he or she begins to see how they mirror each other and teach the same principles.

I submit “heresies” proliferate because people are not familiar enough with the genuine to detect the counterfeit. I’ve certainly proven that with Reformed Theology!

Hi!

I Believe in One Holy Spirit, One Gospel, One Faith, One Body–this means that you, though you may not have realized it yet, are part of my Faith-Base since you claim Christ as your Lord and Savior… this is factual; it is also factual that you are part of that Body (the Church is the Mystical Body of Christ)… it is why you burn for Christ and why you labor in making the Word Known to all!

…as you’ve noted in your latest posts the Church (those passages you’ve cited) agrees with your conclusions; hence your interpretation and understanding of Scriptures are aligned with the Magisterium–I know, it’s scary!; I believe that the Holy Spirit makes into friends of God those who seek Wisdom (Divine); He deepens their thirst for God’s Word and the need to bring others to the Fullness of the Faith.

The problem with the RT’s and other erroneous theologies is the approach: selection and rejection of Scriptures… in the case posted above, we have to agree that man is in deed filth and unable to pick himself up from that filth and make himself clean… well, by his own merits (abilities: Romans 7:14-19); what RT, Luther, and others fail to accept (comprehend) is what St. Paul also Teaches about God’s Mercy and Love:

56 Now the sting of death is sin: and the power of sin is the law. 57 But thanks be to God, who hath given us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. 58 Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye steadfast and unmoveable; always abounding in the work of the Lord, knowing that your labour is not in vain in the Lord.

(1 Corinthians 15:56-58)
God’s Love and Mercy outshines man’s unrighteousness and impotence!

St. Paul puts it this way:

31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who is against us?.. 38 For I am sure that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, nor might, 39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

(Romans 8:31-39)
…is St. Paul intimating that there are some “elect” and others just fodder?:

5 And hope confoundeth not: because the charity of God is poured forth in our hearts, by the Holy Ghost, who is given to us. 6 For why did Christ, when as yet we were weak, according to the time, die for the ungodly? 7 For scarce for a just man will one die; yet perhaps for a good man some one would dare to die. 8 But God commendeth his charity towards us; because when as yet we were sinners, according to the time, 9 Christ died for us; much more therefore, being now justified by his blood, shall we be saved from wrath through him. 10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son; much more, being reconciled, shall we be saved by his life.

(Romans 5:5-10)
NO! Christ died for the ungodly! God’s enemies were Reconciled to God by Christ’s Death!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

So far I have not seen major difference between things I’ve asserted that “Scripture says”, and what the commentary by the Council of Bishops has asserted.

I told you, Catholics are not going to hate my book!

The question is whether or not there are facts stated so clearly in Scripture as to not be open to interpretation. Again – those who claim 1Cor2:14 “proves regeneration (and understanding-things) must precede salvation” — cannot explain verse 12. Salvation comes before understanding-the-things. It’s not dangerous to simply read Paul’s direct and clear statement; in no way can “receive-the-Spirit” not mean salvation, and in no way can “know-things” precede “receive-the-Spirit”. Paul only allowed one meaning; and it ain’t “Sovereign Predestined Salvation” (monergistic heart-change/understanding, before belief and salvation).

Love is what reaches the world; He is not a God of condemnation — “God did not send the Son to condemn the world, but so that (because of love) the world might be saved THROUGH Him.”

No – not in the “terror” sense. God is love; there is no fear in love, for fear involves punishment, and he who fears is not perfected in love.

…yet, “fear” meaning reverence, is absolutely taught — often.

When Jesus comes, there will be no more divisions. Until then, those who claim Jesus as Lord, fellowship together, celebrating what is in common and tolerating difference.

…as you and I have been doing…

Hi!

…yeah, we are on that path… I understand your presentation (and I feel I know the reason why your book was authored); where we miss each other is on “vocabulary;” if we revisit my previous post we will find that we had slightly different understanding on the rendering of “fear.”

While I meant that there are some who are basically merchants of “fear” (‘put the fear of God into them and they’ll cough up the dough’) and that Scriptures actually Teach that God is our friend and that we should not fear God but come/go near Him, you found the need the clarify what “fear of God” actually means… so we are on the same grounds but working from different latitudes…

I see the same exact situation with our understanding of Faith and the Church.

From our engagement (the passages, interpretations, and understanding that you have offered) I can say that you and the Magisterium of the Church are in agreement–in *that *you are fully Catholic, as in Roman Catholic–another scary moment! :juggle::juggle::juggle:

While it is true that Jesus is the Ultimate Equalizer, we may fail to see that there’s but One Body and while we may differ in vocabulary and some understanding, the Holy Spirit Calls us to that Unity in Christ… not just in the ever-after but in the here and now!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

You know, God has led me in specific directions in writing this book. He sent a Jehovah’s Witness so my treatment of Rev22:12-16 would be more thorough (and I added the connection between Rev21:6, and Jn4:14). Then just a day or two ago I wrote on the misuse of “proskyneo”, where Watchtower changes it at times into “obeisance” trying to deny that Jesus accepted WORSHIP.

I think clearly I should do a paragraph on “authority”, showing that some verses are so clear that only one meaning is possible; in these cases we do find the Bishops saying the same thing. My whole book is based on the premise that “we can establish spiritual absolutes from Scripture” — each section lists nearly every verse adherents use, and then examines each verse in context. In the “Universalism” section, I attended Carlton Pearson’s lecture, and wrote down the verses he cited. Only two verses resist explanation; Robertson concurs, “no one knows what Peter meant.” But there’s plenty in the rest of Scripture to deny that “everyone will end up in Heaven”.

No, they won’t; those who die in their sins, perish; and it’s for-ever.



Pearson’s motivation was that his father died apart from Jesus; it was “great comfort” thinking his Dad was really going to be in Heaven. I’m really sorry, Carlton — those who do not have Jesus when life ends, just aren’t going to get through Heaven’s gates.

“It is appointed once for men to die, and after this comes judgment.”
“Those whose names were not found written in the Lamb’s Book of Life, were cast into the lake of fire.”
“This is the Second Death…”

We all choose, so did your Dad. We grieve for those we love, who will never be with us again. Christianity at its heart — is a PARTY. There’s nothing about “ramming our religion down anyone’s throats”. No, Scripture calls it a “wedding feast” — those things were noisy, and joyful. You are invited, everyone. You don’t have to come – if you don’t want to, we’ll miss you. But if you come, then we get — YOU — the pleasure of your company, forever. Come, rejoice with us in His presence, in His joy, forever! Will you?

And that’s what Christianity is; a celebration, of love.

Hi!

…consider that the reason why man is invited to the Wedding Feast… other than child-birth there’s no moment in man’s life that compares to the wedding day. The joy is made complete as all who are invited join the couple in they joyous occasion–so is God’s Joy Amplified by man’s sharing His Joy!

Yet, even in the midst of this Great Joy, we find that any interloper is singled out and expediently removed from God’s Presence! (in actuality the interlopers will not even get to the door…)

…sadly, as you’ve pointed out, man’s ego/emotions get the best of him… so hollowood’s theology (all dogs go to heaven) becomes quite palatable. While it is of good personal comfort to wish/think that one day we will meet our loved ones (or people we knew) in Heaven, the reality is that Salvation is and individual occurrence: each one of us will be independently Judged by God.

…again, our theologies converge!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[Gadgeteer]

Hi!

…yeah, both scenarios depict a comfort zone to which Christ never Called His Disciples:

Jesus Commands that we Emulate Him (Abide in HIM)–one cannot claim to be of the Light if one does not Walk (Abide) in the Light!

A big split, is whether we pursue doing good things with Jesus to help us, or whether we are truly indwelt and submitted and He is doing the work through us. “Grace” is a gift not acquired by “pursuing-doing-good-things”; people of the world are surprised that Christianity is not a religion (doing good deeds to impress God), but a faithful acceptance of HIS good work.

…yes, but, to me, it seems that he is more succinct: ‘resist the devil’ (no more ‘the devil made me do it,’–the devil can be resisted) and ‘he will flee from you’ (yeah no more ‘blinded by tricks of the devil’–he has no hold on us); ‘get near/close to God and he will get/come close to you’ (no more ‘I don’t know how to get closer to God’ syndrome); and the lovely: ‘greater is He that is in you than he that is in the world’; WOW, what a smack-down! Satan has no power over the Believers cause only God can ABIDE in the Believers!

I object to focusing on “resisting-the-devil” (as Joyce Myer taught with passages like Lk10:17-19). If we spend time thinking about him, then he owns real-estate in our thoughts, and he gets us to hate. Both ways he wins. Often I say, “we fill our hearts so full of Jesus and the Spirit that there is no room for sin or satan.” There’s a verse in Proverbs, “As a man reckons inside, so is he” — we are, what we think about…

…St. James is right on point: man is able to cooperate in God’s Salvific Plan!

100%.

…yes!, this Walk in Jesus demonstrates man’s freewill cooperating with God’s Grace:
27 Give not place to the devil. 28 He that stole, let him now steal no more; but rather let him labour, working with his hands the thing which is good, that he may have something to give to him that suffereth need. 29 Let no evil speech proceed from your mouth; but that which is good, to the edification of faith, that it may administer grace to the hearers. 30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God: whereby you are sealed unto the day of redemption. 31 Let all bitterness, and anger, and indignation, and clamour, and blasphemy, be put away from you, with all malice. 32 And be ye kind one to another; merciful, forgiving one another, even as God hath forgiven you in Christ. (Ephesians 4:27-32)

Yes. But — again, it’s not that we focus on these things, but rather that we pursue HIM and HIS righteousness, and everything else follows.

“Seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness, and all these things shall be added unto you.” (I read that somewhere…)

…and how clear is Word about predestined damnation and man’s inability to cooperate with God’s Grace?:
9 For God hath not appointed us unto wrath, but unto the purchasing of salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, 10 Who died for us; that, whether we watch or sleep, we may live together with him. 11 For which cause comfort one another; and edify one another, as you also do. (1 Thessalonians 5:9-11)

(You know that is used by Pre-Tribbers???)

If we claim we “cooperate/receive God’s grace”, some like RT’s accuse us of Pelagianism. No, there’s no inherent good in us, we are totally depraved; but God absolutely draws us to the DOOR of salvation, so that He empowers us to choose. What did you think about Acts17:26-31?

…sometimes I wish I had a “time machine” so that I could go back and smack some of those “theologians” on the head… right when they are about to ink their error and claim “revelation of the Holy Spirit!”

I love the idea of time-travel; own most every t-t movie made. Yes, there’s so much we could “correct”. But I really believe it is a successful approach to LIST ALL of their favorite verses, and explore each one until they’re forced to admit, “Uh, hey, it doesn’t teach Predestination-God-causing-wickedness!”

Predestined-salvation is the exact same level of blasphemy as happened in Matt12:25-31; God cannot cooperate with or cause or ordain wickedness!

(Sigh.)

 

[Gadgeteer]

Hi!

I have come across Believers (both Catholics and non) that presume that they do not need to Confess their sins; they follow Luther’s cue that a “Believer” can sin thousands of times daily and his/her only toil is what to have for lunch or whatsoever… they feel that they are not accountable for anything they do/have done.

That is absolutely “ANTINOMIANISM” (the first facet of OSAS). Sorry, 1Cor6:9-11, Eph5:5-6, Gal5:19-21, and 1Jn3:5-10 are non-negotiable. But the worst thing is that they do not understand the deep intimate love that salvation really is; the veil tore for a reason, because God wants to COMMUNE with us. Not realizing salvation is “Jesus and the Spirit truly indwelling the believer”), they think they have their GOLDEN TICKET and lustfully pursue their sin; neither Jesus nor the Spirit will indwell a person while he walks in sin.

(I think that the criminal did offer works–in the form of recognizing his and the other’s unrighteousness, Jesus’ being Just, and his apologetics.)

You’re right.

…here’s where Fellowship trumps words:
(citation Romans 8:26-27)
Yet, this does not mean that we can void/deceive God’s Plan (PDC)–the Holy Spirit searches our innermost being rejecting unrighteousness or embracing that which is of God.

Well said.

I concur… have you ever found yourself in a situation where sin (temptation/opportunity) comes at out of nowhere?

Yes.

…the Walk is like our biceps that have to be engaged… gradually the Walk turns into involuntary muscle, with the Grace of God and man’s control–this is the path that leads to sainthood: ‘be Holy, for I AM HOLY!’

Foremost, we seek His presence. In my book I discuss “seven facets of prayer”:

1. Praise, worship
2. Thanksgiving
3. Repentance
4. Fellowship
5. Intercession
6. Waiting on God
7. Petition

It’s not that these are all, but demonstrate the extent of our fellowship with Him.

It is St. John’s Walk in the Light! Our Fellowship in Christ implies Love of God, self, and neighbor and edifying ourselves and the Body of Christ!

How about that – 1Jn1:7.

If we say that we have fellowship with Him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth;
but if we walk in the Light as He Himself is in the Light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin.

 

[Gadgeteer]

Hi!

I Believe in One Holy Spirit, One Gospel, One Faith, One Body–this means that you, though you may not have realized it yet, are part of my Faith-Base since you claim Christ as your Lord and Savior… this is factual; it is also factual that you are part of that Body (the Church is the Mystical Body of Christ)… it is why you burn for Christ and why you labor in making the Word Known to all!

…as you’ve noted in your latest posts the Church (those passages you’ve cited) agrees with your conclusions; hence your interpretation and understanding of Scriptures are aligned with the Magisterium–I know, it’s scary!; I believe that the Holy Spirit makes into friends of God those who seek Wisdom (Divine); He deepens their thirst for God’s Word and the need to bring others to the Fullness of the Faith.

Yes – well – I was hoping someone would catch something and comment. Remember when I quoted the Bishops on Heb5-6? They wrote on 1Cor3 that the carnal are SAVED, but immature. So I read their comment on Heb6, “apostates” – and found it to conflict.

Question to you and others – do you believe the Bishops see a subject change between Hebrews chapters 5, and 6? Do they take the “milk-eaters” (who should be mature meat-eaters) as saved, and the apostates in especially 6:4-6 as different individuals?

The “challenge to shake them out of their milky sluggish inertia”, isn’t much of a challenge if those who have fallen are NOT the same ones just rebuked for “milk-eaters”. But if it’s the “immature” who are equated with “unrepentant-apostates”, then that makes perfect sense; and (as the Bishops Council affirms) verses 11-12 warn that we need diligence to persevere. It really should include 7-8, a tilled field can produce either good fruit (and be blessed), or thorns (and be cursed and burned).

Who makes the choice?

The problem with the RT’s and other erroneous theologies is the approach: selection and rejection of Scriptures… in the case posted above, we have to agree that man is indeed filth and unable to pick himself up from that filth and make himself clean… well, by his own merits (abilities: Romans 7:14-19); what RT, Luther, and others fail to accept (comprehend) is what St. Paul also Teaches about God’s Mercy and Love:

God’s Love and Mercy outshines man’s unrighteousness and impotence!

More than that, God forcefully DRAGS men to salvation, all men. “Helkuo” draw/drag-forcibly in Jn12;32. “God’s kindness leads to repentance even those who stubbornly refuse” in Rom2:4-5 (and 6-11 each chooses his OWN destiny, God is NOT PARTIAL!). Every last person in Acts17:26-31, a long neglected passage that is excellent!

St. Paul puts it this way:

…is St. Paul intimating that there are some “elect” and others just fodder?:

NO! Christ died for the ungodly! God’s enemies were Reconciled to God by Christ’s Death!

“Reconciled the WORLD”, 2Cor5 – provision. “We beg you BE reconciled”, fulfillment. Same as Col1:21-23; He has reconciled us to Himself through Jesus if indeed we continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast and not be moved away from (Jesus) the hope of the gospel."

 

[Gadgeteer]

NO! Christ died for the ungodly!

FWIW, here is something that RT’s cannot answer. In Matt9:12-13 Jesus said, “It is not the healthy that need a physican, but the sick; I came not for the righteous but for sinners!”

Wait — per Calvinism, the unregenerate cannot believe; therefore Jesus could not have come for them.

BUT — neither could He have come for the regenerate, who are RIGHTEOUS and don’t need Him (He came not for the righteous!).

So who’d He come for? There has to be a connection between Jesus’ coming, and their regeneration! What is it?

The connection is — unregenerate men can believe, can receive the Spirit and BECOME “regenerate”. And that works perfectly. Jesus came for the wicked, His coming for them empowers them away from “total depravity” (therefore, by His sincere effective call it is no longer “total inability”) — they can believe and receive Him, and the Spirit, and then become regenerated! Just as Titus3:5-6 states, it is by the POURED Spirit that regeneration comes!

The same word “ekcheo-poured” is in Acts10:45-47 and 11:15-17; they received the Spirit, the Spirit was POURED, just as He was on the Apostles AFTER BELIEF.

1. Believe in Jesus as Lord and Savior for salvation.
2. Receive the Spirit, He is POURED out on you.
3. By the POURED (received) Spirit are we washed (regenerated), justified, sanctified.

In no way can RT’s answer this!

 

[Gadgeteer]

Hi!

…yeah, we are on that path… I understand your presentation (and I feel I know the reason why your book was authored); where we miss each other is on “vocabulary;” if we revisit my previous post we will find that we had slightly different understanding on the rendering of “fear.”

While I meant that there are some who are basically merchants of “fear” (‘put the fear of God into them and they’ll cough up the dough’) and that Scriptures actually Teach that God is our friend and that we should not fear God but come/go near Him, you found the need the clarify what “fear of God” actually means… so we are on the same grounds but working from different latitudes…

It’s unfortunate that some verses translate as “fear”, rather than “lovingly revere”.

“I most certainly understand now that God is not one to show partiality,
but in every nation the man who [fn]fears Him and [fn]does what is right is welcome to Him.” The NASB footnotes verse 35, “or reverences”. (Second footnote “works righteousness”)

Also note that God welcoming those who do NOT first revere Him and pursue righteousness (which is 100% what Reformed Theology claims), is the partiality that GOD IS NOT!!!

Oops (for RT).

I see the same exact situation with our understanding of Faith and the Church.

From our engagement (the passages, interpretations, and understanding that you have offered) I can say that you and the Magisterium of the Church are in agreement–in *that *you are fully Catholic, as in Roman Catholic–another scary moment!

Heh heh – I have some disagreements…

While it is true that Jesus is the Ultimate Equalizer, we may fail to see that there’s but One Body and while we may differ in vocabulary and some understanding, the Holy Spirit Calls us to that Unity in Christ… not just in the ever-after but in the here and now!

Yeeesss, He does.

How many of us “speak the truth in LOVE”? Paul says (2Cor5:20) that we are AMBASSADORS for God; the world watches us, and they look BETWEEN our words. What the world knows of Jesus, they know from us. Do they see Him IN us, enough that they want what we have?

 

[Gadgeteer]

Hi!

…consider that the reason why man is invited to the Wedding Feast… other than child-birth there’s no moment in man’s life that compares to the wedding day. The joy is made complete as all who are invited join the couple in their joyous occasion–so is God’s Joy Amplified by man’s sharing His Joy!

Yet, even in the midst of this Great Joy, we find that any interloper is singled out and expediently removed from God’s Presence! (in actuality the interlopers will not even get to the door…)

Why was he kicked out? The king (traditionally) provided clean clothes. Isaiah61:10 — “He has clothed me with garments of salvation, He has wrapped me with a robe of righteousness.”

This man wanted to party with his friends, but he liked his stains of sin.

…sadly, as you’ve pointed out, man’s ego/emotions get the best of him… so hollowood’s theology (all dogs go to heaven) becomes quite palatable. While it is of good personal comfort to wish/think that one day we will meet our loved ones (or people we knew) in Heaven, the reality is that Salvation is an individual occurrence: each one of us will be independently Judged by God.

That’s correct. Those WHO by perseverance in doing good seek glory honor and immortality receive eternal life; but those WHO are selfishly ambitious and will not obey the truth but obey unrighteousness, receive wrath. …for there is no partiality with God.

What would God be if He picked His favorites before time, and those He’s made “teacher’s-pets” will be saved no matter what, but those He created to be wicked and furnace-fuel will perish and no one can change that. That is complete partiality!

(“save others, snatching them from the fire”?)

Sigh.

 

[jcrichton]

a big split, is whether we pursue doing good things with jesus to help us, or whether we are truly indwelt and submitted and he is doing the work through us. “grace” is a gift not acquired by “pursuing-doing-good-things”; people of the world are surprised that christianity is not a religion (doing good deeds to impress god), but a faithful acceptance of his good work.

I object to focusing on “resisting-the-devil” (as joyce myer taught with passages like lk10:17-19). If we spend time thinking about him, then he owns real-estate in our thoughts, and he gets us to hate. Both ways he wins. Often i say, “we fill our hearts so full of jesus and the spirit that there is no room for sin or satan.” there’s a verse in proverbs, “as a man reckons inside, so is he” — we are, what we think about…

Yes. But — again, it’s not that we focus on these things, but rather that we pursue him and his righteousness, and everything else follows.

“seek first the kingdom of god and his righteousness, and all these things shall be added unto you.” (i read that somewhere…)

hi!

…again, I think this is another one of those issues of “vocabulary.” Consider what I claim/say in the light of philippians 4:13:

13 I can do all these things in him who strengtheneth me.

I don’t subscribe to those theologies that places the Holy Spirit, Christ or the Father in a relationship where man “makes it happen.” Such theologies simply don’t get the relationship:

4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abide in the vine, so neither can you, unless you abide in me. 5 I am the vine: you the branches: he that abideth in me, and I in him, the same beareth much fruit: for without me you can do nothing.

(St. John 15:4-5)
…here’s what I mean… a few days ago I attempted to convey a simple message of safety to an elderly woman; she basically screamed at me that she did not want to listen to what I had to say… today I found myself in the midst of a battle… a woman with a cane was attempting to catch a bus… I saw her struggling to run to it… the memory of the elderly woman’s irate response to my friendly counsel stopped me on track as self-preservation kicked in (‘should I place myself in harms way to help this person when there might be an offensive reaction against me?..’). I fought the urge to coast by and I place myself in harms way–no one was irate cause I held the departure of the bus so that the handicapped lady could board the bus.

The battle is on-going and we each face it at different intervals and depths… how we ABIDE in Christ allows us to resist the devil and to remain near God!

(you know

that is used by pre-tribbers???)

if we claim we “cooperate/receive god’s grace”, some like rt’s accuse us of pelagianism. No, there’s no inherent good in us, we are totally depraved; but god absolutely draws us to the door of salvation, so that he empowers us to choose. What did you think about acts17:26-31?
The reason they hold such belief is do to ignorance–they fully fail to understand St. John 15:1-10… further, they fail to understand that man cannot curb God’s Delegation:

12…Amen, amen I say to you, he that believeth in me, the works that I do, he also shall do; and greater than these shall he do.

(St. John 14:12b)

16 He that heareth you, heareth me; and he that despiseth you, despiseth me; and he that despiseth me, despiseth him that sent me.(St. Luke 10:16)
…Acts 17:26-31 speaks to man setting limitations to God’s Omnipotence and Creation through man’s understanding and limitations. Interestingly enough, St. Paul plays on the cultural understanding of man’s relationship to God: child of God. He expounds on two very specifics themes:

*God is accessible to man
*Each man is Called to repentance as the response to the impending Judgment

Yeah, no evading man’s freewill to seek and abide in God!

I love the idea of time-travel; own most every t-t movie made. Yes, there’s so much we could “correct”. But i really believe it is a successful approach to list all of their favorite verses, and explore each one until they’re forced to admit, "uh, hey, it doesn’t

teach predestination-god-causing-wickedness!"

predestined-salvation is the exact same level of blasphemy as happened in matt12:25-31; god cannot cooperate with or cause or ordain wickedness!

(sigh.)
It is sad that they cannot understand this… people love to take things (Scriptures) apart… to scrutinize the meaning/term… yet, they seldom employ commonsense and reason: to believe that God (the Father, Son or Holy Spirit) is unable to Save man or that He is out to *get *man is denial of God’s Mercy, Justice and Love–in effect, it is to deny God’s Salvific Plan.

We cannot attribute to Satan God’s Holiness nor can we attribute to God Satan’s wickedness!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

That is absolutely “ANTINOMIANISM” (the first facet of OSAS). Sorry, 1Cor6:9-11, Eph5:5-6, Gal5:19-21, and 1Jn3:5-10 are non-negotiable. But the worst thing is that they do not understand the deep intimate love that salvation really is; the veil tore for a reason, because God wants to COMMUNE with us. Not realizing salvation is “Jesus and the Spirit truly indwelling the believer”), they think they have their GOLDEN TICKET and lustfully pursue their sin; neither Jesus nor the Spirit will indwell a person while he walks in sin.

Hi!

…it is interesting how “Believers” miss or fail to apply passages of Sacred Scriptures that hit it square between the eyes:

31 Now we know that God doth not hear sinners:

(St. John 9:31a)
…so when man practices sin and teaches others to rebel in it, God cannot but allow those who chose such lifestyle follow their own “wisdom” into damnation (Romans 1:18-32).

Ascribing unrighteousness to God or denying God’s Salvific Plan is the most foolish of man’s follies!

Foremost, we seek His presence. In my book I discuss “seven facets of prayer”:

1. Praise, worship
2. Thanksgiving
3. Repentance
4. Fellowship
5. Intercession
6. Waiting on God
7. Petition

It’s not that these are all

, but demonstrate the extent of our fellowship with Him.
…and you say your not Catholic… (sorry, I could not help it!)

PART FOUR CHRISTIAN PRAYER (vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p4s1c1a3.htm

)

How about that – 1Jn1:7.

If we say that we have fellowship with Him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth;
but if we walk in the Light as He Himself is in the Light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin.

Exactly! …which reflects Ephesians 4:11-12 and 1 Corinthians 14:12… yet, this is according to that Relationship which Christ Created:

20 And not for them only do I pray, but for them also who through their word shall believe in me; 21 That they all may be one, as thou, Father, in me, and I in thee; that they also may be one in us; that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. 22 And the glory which thou hast given me, I have given to them; that they may be one, as we also are one: 23 I in them, and thou in me; that they may be made perfect in one: and the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast also loved me.

(St. John 17:20-23)
Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

Yes – well – I was hoping someone would catch something and comment. Remember when I quoted the Bishops on Heb5-6? They wrote on 1Cor3 that the carnal are SAVED, but immature. So I read their comment on Heb6, “apostates” – and found it to conflict.

Question to you and others – do you believe the Bishops see a subject change between Hebrews chapters 5, and 6? Do they take the “milk-eaters” (who should be mature meat-eaters) as saved, and the apostates in especially 6:4-6 as different individuals?

The “challenge to shake them out of their milky sluggish inertia”, isn’t much of a challenge if those who have fallen are NOT the same ones just rebuked for “milk-eaters”. But if it’s the “immature” who are equated with “unrepentant-apostates”, then that makes perfect sense; and (as the Bishops Council affirms) verses 11-12 warn that we need diligence to persevere. It really should include 7-8, a tilled field can produce either good fruit (and be blessed), or thorns (and be cursed and burned).

Who makes the choice?

Hi!

…we are dealing with two issues…

Believers who fall back (slide) in practice and maturity are still Believers… these are the hearers of the Word that are fully enthuse at getting the Good News but are slow/neglectful of engaging the Walk… they do not deny Christ, the Holy Spirit, the Father; they do not reject Apostolic Teaching… they become sluggish, timid, and minimalists… they look for “shortcuts” and “clauses” to avoid, as it were, to pay the piper.

The apostates are quite different. They have come to Know and Accept Christ and everything that Fellowship entails but they have “discovered” a “deeper” or “higher” truth/spiritualism… they may deny Christ’s Divinity, the Holy Trinity, Christ’s Incarnation, the Church, the Sacraments… they may recreate all these according to their own understanding… they may even used the Word of God to make void the Word of God or deny it altogether!

…who makes the choice? Here’s what Scriptures tells us:

23 Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering (for he is faithful that hath promised), 24 And let us consider one another, to provoke unto charity and to good works: 25 Not forsaking our assembly, as some are accustomed; but comforting one another, and so much the more as you see the day approaching. 26 For if we sin wilfully after having the knowledge of the truth, there is now left no sacrifice for sins, 27 But a certain dreadful expectation of judgment, and the rage of a fire which shall consume the adversaries. 28 A man making void the law of Moses, dieth without any mercy under two or three witnesses: 29 How much more, do you think he deserveth worse punishments, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath esteemed the blood of the testament unclean, by which he was sanctified, and hath offered an affront to the Spirit of grace?

(Hebrews 10:23-29)
Those who are weak in the Faith or have turned back to milk-nourishment are still capable of being counseled and returned to the Fullness of the Faith, if they do not persist in their error; yet, those who actually turn against the Faith cannot be compelled nor counseled back into the Faith that they have rejected/trampled on.

Still, even these, if they regain their true Compass (Jesus) can turn back to God–as St. Paul experienced it:

8 And last of all, he was seen also by me, as by one born out of due time. 9 For I am the least of the apostles, who am not worthy to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God.

(1 Corinthians 15:8-9)
…this is the reason why the Church is slow to make any official pronouncement of excommunication or to remove heretics at the first sign of error and heretical teachings…

The choice, my friend, is that of the individual apostate since no argument or goodwill could offer him/her the conduit for repentance and return to the Fold. He/She must renounce Satan (his/her apostasy) and embrace Christ’s Truth.

More than that, God forcefully DRAGS men to salvation

, all men. “Helkuo” draw/drag-forcibly in Jn12;32. “God’s kindness leads to repentance even those who stubbornly refuse” in Rom2:4-5 (and 6-11 each chooses his OWN destiny, God is NOT PARTIAL!). Every last person in Acts17:26-31, a long neglected passage that is excellent!

“Reconciled the WORLD”, 2Cor5 – provision. “We beg you BE reconciled”, fulfillment. Same as Col1:21-23; He has reconciled us to Himself through Jesus if indeed we continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast and not be moved away from (Jesus) the hope of the gospel."
Yes but always within the scope of Deuteronomy 30:19:

19 I call heaven and earth to witness this day, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing. Choose therefore life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

Maran atha!

Angel