Obtaining God's Forgiveness

[jcrichton]

FWIW, here is something that RT’s cannot answer. In Matt9:12-13 Jesus said, “It is not the healthy that need a physican, but the sick; I came not for the righteous but for sinners!”

Wait — per Calvinism, the unregenerate cannot believe; therefore Jesus could not have come for them.

BUT — neither could He have come for the regenerate, who are RIGHTEOUS and don’t need Him (He came not for the righteous!).

So who’d He come for? There has to be a connection between Jesus’ coming, and their regeneration! What is it?

The connection is — unregenerate men can believe, can receive the Spirit and BECOME “regenerate”. And that works perfectly. Jesus came for the wicked, His coming for them empowers them away from “total depravity” (therefore, by His sincere effective call it is no longer “total inability”) — they can believe and receive Him, and the Spirit, and then become regenerated! Just as Titus3:5-6 states, it is by the POURED Spirit that regeneration comes!

The same word “ekcheo-poured” is in Acts10:45-47 and 11:15-17; they received the Spirit, the Spirit was POURED, just as He was on the Apostles AFTER BELIEF.

1. Believe in Jesus as Lord and Savior for salvation.
2. Receive the Spirit, He is POURED out on you.
3. By the POURED (received) Spirit are we washed (regenerated), justified, sanctified.

In no way can RT’s answer this!

Hi!

…this is what I mean by “making void” the Word of God.

Man’s wisdom turns from God’s Word to man’s interpretation of the Word; fellowship actually becomes a comfort-zone familiar existence… much like that of people who are involved with others and they are comforted in the relationship (be that of sexual, business, or amity); the Truth does not matter; what matters is that “comfort.”

It is no wonder that Scriptures warns against man’s relationship with himself:

25 He that boasteth, and puffeth up himself, stirreth up quarrels: but he that trusteth in the Lord, shall be healed. 26 He that trusteth in his own heart, is a fool: but he that walketh wisely, he shall be saved.

(Proverbs 28:25-26)
When we trade God’s Truth for man’s comforting thoughts we gain oblivion which will carry us into damnation.

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

It’s unfortunate that some verses translate as “fear”, rather than “lovingly revere”.

“I most certainly understand now that God is not one to show partiality,
but in every nation the man who [fn]fears Him and [fn]does what is right is welcome to Him.” The NASB footnotes verse 35, “or reverences”. (Second footnote “works righteousness”)

Also note that God welcoming those who do NOT first revere Him and pursue righteousness (which is 100% what Reformed Theology claims), is the partiality that GOD IS NOT!!!

Oops (for RT).

Heh heh – I have some disagreements…

Yeeesss, He does.

How many of us “speak the truth in LOVE”? Paul says (2Cor5:20) that we are AMBASSADORS for God; the world watches us, and they look BETWEEN our words. What the world knows of Jesus, they know from us. Do they see Him IN us, enough that they want what we have?

Hi!

…sadly the world has turned from spiritualism to gratification… even the most confused and wretched had a measure of Divine Revelation that they nurtured (held to and experienced, even if in limited and erroneous capacity). Today the world is all about consumption and self-gratification… I suspect that that is the reason why atheism has become so openly combatant (aggressive).

…so, yeah, Christians are profoundly failing Christ as we continue to obscure that “Light” that we have been Called to Shine upon the world.

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[Gadgeteer]

hi!

…again, I think this is another one of those issues of “vocabulary.” Consider what I claim/say in the light of philippians 4:13:

I don’t subscribe to those theologies that places the Holy Spirit, Christ or the Father in a relationship where man “makes it happen.” Such theologies simply don’t get the relationship:
(citation St. John 15:4-5)

Inasmuch as “love cannot demand its own way” (zeteo, 1Cor13:5 — God cannot decide/demand who loves Him back!) — no one can be forced into loving God (what command is it, where no one has a choice about answering? Matt22:37!). Neither can one who enters God’s love, be forced to stay!

…here’s what I mean… a few days ago I attempted to convey a simple message of safety to an elderly woman; she basically screamed at me that she did not want to listen to what I had to say… today I found myself in the midst of a battle… a woman with a cane was attempting to catch a bus… I saw her struggling to run to it… the memory of the elderly woman’s irate response to my friendly counsel stopped me on track as self-preservation kicked in (‘should I place myself in harms way to help this person when there might be an offensive reaction against me?..’). I fought the urge to coast by and I place myself in harms way–no one was irate cause I held the departure of the bus so that the handicapped lady could board the bus.

You 100% showed “godly fruits”…

The battle is on-going and we each face it at different intervals and depths… how we ABIDE in Christ allows us to resist the devil and to remain near God!

That’s it; but we are not to focus on or think about the devil, he does not deserve real-estate in our esteem.

The reason they hold such belief is do to ignorance–they fully fail to understand St. John 15:1-10… further, they fail to understand that man cannot curb God’s Delegation:
12…Amen, amen I say to you, he that believeth in me, the works that I do, he also shall do; and greater than these shall he do. (St. John 14:12b)

16 He that heareth you, heareth me; and he that despiseth you, despiseth me; and he that despiseth me, despiseth him that sent me.(St. Luke 10:16)

Scripture is replete with warnings against “turning away from God”. No OSAS person has ever answered verses like 2Cor11:3 — we are at the same danger of “deception away from Jesus”, as Eve experienced in the Garden!

…Acts 17:26-31 speaks to man setting limitations to God’s Omnipotence and Creation through man’s understanding and limitations. Interestingly enough, St. Paul plays on the cultural understanding of man’s relationship to God: child of God. He expounds on two very specifics themes:

*God is accessible to man
*Each man is Called to repentance as the response to the impending Judgment

Yeah, no evading man’s freewill to seek and abide in God!

Once again, “all men” is rewritten into “NOT REALLY all but only some of all TYPES”.

What use is a doctrine which founds on rewriting Scripture, or stamping it over and over, “NOT REALLY”?

It is sad that they cannot understand this… people love to take things (Scriptures) apart… to scrutinize the meaning/term… yet, they seldom employ common sense and reason: to believe that God (the Father, Son or Holy Spirit) is unable to Save man or that He is out to *get *man is denial of God’s Mercy, Justice and Love–in effect, it is to deny God’s Salvific Plan.

Again, “God has mercy on ALL” (Rm11:32), is rewritten “some of all types”. I’ve never gotten them to answer Rom2:11, or Acts10:34-35. God playing favorites, and choosing someone before he pursues God and His righteousness, is the partiality that Peter says God is NOT!

We cannot attribute to satan God’s Holiness nor can we attribute to God satan’s wickedness!

Much worse when we accuse God of complicity in wickedness; “in Him there is no sin”, 1Jn3:5.

 

[Gadgeteer]

Question on Heb5-6, part 1

I have come across Believers (both Catholics and non) that presume that they do not need to Confess their sins; they follow Luther’s cue that a “Believer” can sin thousands of times daily and his/her only toil is what to have for lunch or whatsoever… they feel that they are not accountable for anything they do/have done.
Gadget:

That is absolutely “ANTINOMIANISM” (the first facet of OSAS). Sorry, 1Cor6:9-11, Eph5:5-6, Gal5:19-21, and 1Jn3:5-10 are non-negotiable. But the worst thing is that they do not understand the deep intimate love that salvation really is; the veil tore for a reason, because God wants to COMMUNE with us. Not realizing salvation is “Jesus and the Spirit truly indwelling the believer”), they think they have their GOLDEN TICKET and lustfully pursue their sin; neither Jesus nor the Spirit will indwell a person while he walks in sin.

…it is interesting how “Believers” miss or fail to apply passages of Sacred Scriptures that hit it square between the eyes:
31 Now we know that God doth not hear sinners: (St. John 9:31a)
…so when man practices sin and teaches others to rebel in it, God cannot but allow those who chose such lifestyle follow their own “wisdom” into damnation (Romans 1:18-32).

jcrichton:

It is St. John’s Walk in the Light! Our Fellowship in Christ implies Love of God, self, and neighbor and edifying ourselves and the Body of Christ!
Gadget:

How about that! 1Jn1:7
If we say that we have fellowship with Him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth;
but if we walk in the Light as He Himself is in the Light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin.

Remember what I quoted from the Bishops:
Conference of Catholic Bishops:

1Cor3:1
The natural person (1 Cor 2:14) is one whose existence, perceptions, and behavior are determined by purely natural principles, the psychē (1 Cor 2:14) and the sarx (flesh, a biblical term that connotes creatureliness, 1 Cor 3:1, 3). Such persons are only infants (1 Cor 3:1); they remain on a purely human level (anthrōpoi, 1 Cor 3:4). (2) On the other hand, they are called to be animated by a higher principle, the pneuma, God’s spirit. They are to become spiritual (pneumatikoi, 1 Cor 3:1) and mature (1 Cor 2:6) in their perceptions and behavior (cf. Gal 5:16–26).

Heb5
Those to whom the author directs his teaching about Jesus’ priesthood, which is difficult to explain, have become sluggish in hearing and forgetful of even the basic elements (Heb 5:12).

Those “milk-eaters”, they that have become “dull of hearing” — reflecting Matt13:

[sup]13[/sup]"Therefore I speak to them in parables; because while seeing they do not see, and while hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand.
[sup]14[/sup]"In their case the prophecy of Isaiah is being fulfilled, which says,
‘YOU WILL KEEP ON HEARING, BUT WILL NOT UNDERSTAND;
YOU WILL KEEP ON SEEING, BUT WILL NOT PERCEIVE;
[sup]15[/sup]FOR THE HEART OF THIS PEOPLE HAS BECOME DULL,
WITH THEIR EARS THEY SCARCELY HEAR,
AND THEY HAVE CLOSED THEIR EYES,
OTHERWISE THEY WOULD SEE WITH THEIR EYES,
HEAR WITH THEIR EARS,
AND UNDERSTAND WITH THEIR HEART AND RETURN,
AND I WOULD HEAL THEM.’
[sup]16[/sup]“But blessed are your eyes, because they see; and your ears, because they hear.”

Matt13:13-16 (which quote Isaiah6:9-10), is the same “dull-of-hearing” as Heb5:11. Is there any way either of these groups is saved? The admonition to “take care how you listen” (Lk8:18) occurs often; those who will not hear — they practice sin! Can’t be anything else! Where is it that Jesus wants them to “return to”? To saving-faith!

 

[Gadgeteer]

Question on Heb5-6, part 2

So – how does that jibe with what the USCCB says — “an admonition to carnal people to become spiritual”? The Bishops call them “infants” – immature in CHRIST. So there has to be a disconnect between Heb5:12 and 6:4-6, a subject change. But I do not see a subject change!

You and I were agreeing that someone “not-walking-in-the-light”, but “walking-in-sin”, is not saved. The Bishops admit that “milk-eaters” are fleshly (sarx); and Paul plainly states that “if we live according to the flesh (sarx!) we must die”!

What’s the answer? Is 1Cor3:1 and Heb5:1 speaking of carnal-SAVED people? Consider Heb6::1-4 — desiring to not continue speaking of repentance from dead works, but to press on to maturity.

Verse 6 — FOR — Greek, “gar” — for, because.

Don’t spend all your time preaching repentance, but press on to maturity; BECAUSE those who WERE SAVED but now are falling away (perhaps, “having fallen away”) — it is adunatos-powerless to restore them to repentance while by their willful sin it is as if they crucify Christ to themselves over and over and hold Him to shame (regard His grace with contempt).
Council of Bishops:

. No effort is made to address apostates, for their very hostility to the Christian message cuts them off completely from Christ (Heb 6:4–8). This harsh statement seems to rule out repentance after apostasy, but perhaps the author deliberately uses hyperbole in order to stress the seriousness of abandoning Christ.

There’s nothing in Heb6:4-6 about “prohibiting repentance after apostasy”. First, against the Calvinistic understanding, prove they really were saved — “photizo-enlightened”, “tasters of the good word of God and the powers of the age to come”, and “metochos-PARTNERS of the Holy Spirit”. Taste, is “geuomai” — exactly the same as Heb2:9, “Jesus tasted death”. They really tasted/participated, metochos partakers/partners really were saved (Heb3:1, Heb3:14, Heb8:12).

Second, it really says “and FALLING away” — aorist active participle; “falling”, maybe “having-fallen”. They are unrepentant, no way they’re saved. Adunatos impossible/unable/powerless/impotent to restore them to repentance…

King James “SEEING AS”
NIV “BECAUSE”
NASB “SINCE”
NASB footnote, “WHILE!”

…they crucify Christ to themselves anew. It’s the same as in Heb10:26-29, if we continue sinning willfully there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins but a terrifying expectation of judgment and fury of fire that consumes the adversaries. Only their willful sin prevents them from repentance and keeps them in apostasy; but remember, the whole letter of Hebrews is warning “don’t be deceived by sin to unsalvation”. 2:1-3, 3:8, 3:12-14, 4:1, 4:11, 6:7-8, 6:12-13, 10:26-29, 10:35, 10:36, 12:7-9, 12:15, 12:25, and 13:9.

Why would verses 5:11-6:6 be any different?

This is probably a question that cannot be answered here; because if anyone here acknowledges what I perceive, that “milk-eaters/carnal/fleshly cannot be saved”, that goes against the Council of Bishops. But to take “carnal” as saved violates Rm8:12-13, “gar-for/because” in Heb6:4, and other verses.

Is this resolvable?

 

[Gadgeteer]

Gadget:

Foremost, we seek His presence. In my book I discuss “seven facets of prayer”:

1. Praise, worship
2. Thanksgiving
3. Repentance
4. Fellowship
5. Intercession
6. Waiting on God
7. Petition

It’s not that these are all, but demonstrate the extent of our fellowship with Him.

…and you say you’re not Catholic… (sorry, I could not help it!)

Heh heh! :hug3:
If you put my understanding on a scale whose endpoints are “Calvinism”, and “Catholicism”, I’m a whole lot closer to Catholicism!

I like to put “petition” at the last; so many who claim the title “Christian”, treat God as a cosmic Santa. James says (ch4) “You have not because you do not ask; or you ask and do not receive because you ask wrongly to spend it on your passions.”

These facets of prayer accomplish specific things. “Praise/worship” — God inhabits praise, when we praise and worship Him He inhabits us.

Thanksgiving – gratitude is the basis of humility, and Scripture says “unless we are humbled as a child we will never see the kingdom of God”. Unthankfulness is arguably the root of sin. What man covets another woman when he is thankful for what he has? What woman craves material possessions when she is thankful and content?

Repentance is a true abhorrence of sin, even if only because it offends He whom we love. We are confident that He is faithful and just to forgive us and to cleanse us from ALL unrighteousness, as we diligently pursue His presence and His power to overcome sin the NEXT time. We also recognize that when God forgives us, He FORGETS – in His eyes it is as if we never sinned. (Heb8:12)

Fellowship — the veil tore for each of US; we enter within the veil with reverence and love, and delight in His presence, as He truly delights in OURS.

Intercession – the opposite of “Christian”, is selfish; it’s impossible to be selfish when we’re praying our hearts out for friends, AND for enemies.

Waiting on God – stilling our mouths and our thoughts, we listen for His still small voice; it is a deeper intimacy, a respect for His person.

Petition – when we embody the other facets, then we fulfill Psalm37:4 — “Delight yourself in the Lord, and He will give you the desires of your heart.” If we delight in Him, then His heart is ours, and our desires are His. Then we will NOT “ask wrongly to spend it on our passions”!

(citation 1Jn1:7, “if we walk in darkness we lie and do not practice the truth”
Exactly! …which reflects Ephesians 4:11-12 and 1 Corinthians 14:12…

And that’s why I can’t accept “carnal” (which is dull-ears, walking in sin and unrepentant), as “saved”! If we walk in the flesh (sarx, are carnal) we must die! Rom8:12!

yet, this is according to that Relationship which Christ Created:

20 And not for them only do I pray, but for them also who through their word shall believe in me; 21 That they all may be one, as thou, Father, in me, and I in thee; that they also may be one in us; that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. 22 And the glory which thou hast given me, I have given to them; that they may be one, as we also are one: 23 I in them, and thou in me; that they may be made perfect in one: and the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast also loved me. (St. John 17:20-23)

This is why I have an “all-or-nothing” view; Christ is in us (and we therefore have godly fruits — 2Pet1:5-11), or He is not in us and we are castaway/disqualified (2Cor13:5).

What does anyone here think I’m missing?

 

[Gadgeteer]

Hi!

…we are dealing with two issues…

Believers who fall back (slide) in practice and maturity are still Believers…

Are you sure of that? Salvation is “Christ-in-you” – he who has Jesus has eternal life, he who does not have Jesus does not have life. In the Protestant world often is heard the expression, “backslidden-but-saved”. As you and I have agreed, true (saved!) faith will produce good fruit. Look at what Peter said:

“Now for this very reason also, applying all diligence, in your faith supply moral excellence, and in your moral excellence, knowledge,
and in your knowledge, self-control, and in your self-control, perseverance, and in your perseverance, godliness,
and in your godliness, brotherly kindness, and in your brotherly kindness, love.
For if these qualities are yours and are increasing, they render you neither useless nor unfruitful in the true knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
For he who lacks these qualities is blind or short-sighted, having forgotten his purification from his former sins.
Therefore, brethren, be all the more diligent to make His calling and choosing of you steadfast; for as long as you practice these things, you will never stumble;
for in this way the entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ will be abundantly supplied to you.” 2Pet1:5-11

“Stumble” in verse 10 is “ptaio become-wretched”. The godly qualities are not optional; it is a bad translation that says, “add to your faith” — no, supply IN your faith, because he who lacks them is IMPURE. It is also a bad translation that says, “Make certain ABOUT His calling and election” – no, it says “Make His calling and election of you BEBAIOS-STEADFAST!”

Only by being diligent in Christ, measuring our position by our fruits, only then are the “eisodos-gates of Eternity provided to us”.

The man in verse 9 – he is “backslidden”, isn’t he? “In-Christ” is doing good works; “backslidden” is not. What kind of “backslidden” is it that is not really in Christ, not really doing good works, but still saved?

These are the hearers of the Word that are fully enthuse at getting the Good News but are slow/neglectful of engaging the Walk… they do not deny Christ,

Why not? Those who DO His will, are His followers; those who do not do His will, He sends away (“Depart from Me, you who practice wickedness”). Matt7:21-23.

Where could a “fleshly-but-saved-person”, exist in this?

the Holy Spirit, the Father; they do not reject Apostolic Teaching… they become sluggish, timid, and minimalists… they look for “shortcuts” and “clauses” to avoid, as it were, to pay the piper.

So — the sluggish can be SAVED?

“And we desire that each one of you show the same diligence [fn]so as to realize the full assurance of hope until the end,
so that you will not be sluggish, but imitators of those who through faith and patience inherit the promises.” Heb6:11-12

The apostates are quite different. They have come to Know and Accept Christ and everything that Fellowship entails but they have “discovered” a “deeper” or “higher” truth/spiritualism… they may deny Christ’s Divinity, the Holy Trinity, Christ’s Incarnation, the Church, the Sacraments… they may recreate all these according to their own understanding… they may even used the Word of God to make void the Word of God or deny it altogether!

I don’t see the difference! Heb5:12 “they are dull of hearing”; how does that not connect with Matt13:13-16, as discussed above?

…who makes the choice? Here’s what Scriptures tells us:

Those who are weak in the Faith or have turned back to milk-nourishment are still capable of being counseled and returned to the Fullness of the Faith, if they do not persist in their error; yet, those who actually turn against the Faith cannot be compelled nor counseled back into the Faith that they have rejected/trampled on.

I’m still struggling to understand a position, “not-fullness-of-faith but SAVED”!

What qualities from Peter’s text of 2:1:5-11 are neglectable?

Still, even these, if they regain their true Compass (Jesus) can turn back to God–as St. Paul experienced it:

…this is the reason why the Church is slow to make any official pronouncement of excommunication or to remove heretics at the first sign of error and heretical teachings…

The choice, my friend, is that of the individual apostate since no argument or goodwill could offer him/her the conduit for repentance and return to the Fold. He/She must renounce satan (his/her apostasy) and embrace Christ’s Truth.

Anyone who has “fallen-from-salvation” can come back, before death. James says it in 5:19-20. Paul in Rom11:18-23 (“those who were cut off, can be grafted in again, if they do not continue in their unbelief”).

In Rom11:18-23 — where would the “carnals”, live?

You and I agreed several times that "salvation is not mere belief, only the belief that produces good fruit". What belief is it that is content drinking milk, immature, not-fully-walking-in-Christ?

How are they “still saved”?

Yes but always within the scope of Deuteronomy 30:19:

I quoted that passage above, 30:11-20. Tied to Rom10:6-10 as it is, it’s a complete and total refutation of Reformed Theology. They have no defense…

 

[jcrichton]

Inasmuch as “love cannot demand its own way” (zeteo, 1Cor13:5 — God cannot decide/demand who loves Him back!) — no one can be forced into loving God (what command is it, where no one has a choice about answering? Matt22:37!). Neither can one who enters God’s love, be forced to stay!

You 100% showed “godly fruits”…

That’s it; but we are not to focus on or think about the devil, he does not deserve real-estate in our esteem.

Scripture is replete with warnings against “turning away from God”. No OSAS person has ever answered verses like 2Cor11:3 — we are at the same danger of “deception away from Jesus”, as Eve experienced in the Garden!

Once again, “all men” is rewritten into “NOT REALLY all but only some of all TYPES”.

What use is a doctrine which founds on rewriting Scripture, or stamping it over and over, “NOT REALLY”?

Again, “God has mercy on ALL” (Rm11:32), is rewritten “some of all types”. I’ve never gotten them to answer Rom2:11, or Acts10:34-35. God playing favorites, and choosing someone before he pursues God and His righteousness, is the partiality that Peter says God is NOT!

Much worse when we accuse God of complicity in wickedness; “in Him there is no sin”, 1Jn3:5.

Hi!

…as I began reading through this post the following passage popped into my mind:

44 But I say to you, Love your enemies: do good to them that hate you: and pray for them that persecute and calumniate you: 45 That you may be the children of your Father who is in heaven, who maketh his sun to rise upon the good, and bad, and raineth upon the just and the unjust. 46 For if you love them that love you, what reward shall you have? do not even the publicans this? 47 And if you salute your brethren only, what do you more? do not also the heathens this? 48 Be you therefore perfect, as also your heavenly Father is perfect.

(St. Matthew 5:44-48)
Is God a confused God? Could God Teach us to do something that’s totally superfluous? Is God a sadist?

What purpose would there be to show a good example?

What purpose would there be to pray for those who are unrighteous if they are locked in their predestined damnation?

God wants our relationship with Him to be reflected in our relationship with all of mankind:

“forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us!”

9 Not rendering evil for evil, nor railing for railing, but contrariwise, blessing: for unto this are you called, that you may inherit a blessing.

(1 St. Peter 3:9)
…yeah, that’s way great for the Believers… but is that all there is?

Let’s look deeper into this relationship that God compels us to engage:

12 Because the eyes of the Lord are upon the just, and his ears unto their prayers: but the countenance of the Lord upon them that do evil things.

(1 St. Peter 3:12)
…those who Believe and Walk in the Light are granted God’s Grace… yet those who are unrighteous are far from God’s Mercy…

In His Wisdom God wants His children to pray for those who are far from His Mercy so that through our intercession they may receive some of the Blessings that are showered upon the Believers!

This clearly debunks all “not saved” scenarios!

God’s Justice, Mercy and Love is made Accessible to all!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

Question on Heb5-6, part 2

So – how does that jibe with what the USCCB says — “an admonition to carnal people to become spiritual”? The Bishops call them “infants” – immature in CHRIST. So there has to be a disconnect between Heb5:12 and 6:4-6, a subject change. But I do not see a subject change!

You and I were agreeing that someone “not-walking-in-the-light”, but “walking-in-sin”, is not saved. The Bishops admit that “milk-eaters” are fleshly (sarx); and Paul plainly states that “if we live according to the flesh (sarx!) we must die”!

What’s the answer? Is 1Cor3:1 and Heb5:1 speaking of carnal-SAVED people? Consider Heb6::1-4 — desiring to not continue speaking of repentance from dead works, but to press on to maturity.

Verse 6 — FOR — Greek, “gar” — for, because.

Don’t spend all your time preaching repentance, but press on to maturity; BECAUSE those who WERE SAVED but now are falling away (perhaps, “having fallen away”) — it is adunatos-powerless to restore them to repentance while by their willful sin it is as if they crucify Christ to themselves over and over and hold Him to shame (regard His grace with contempt).

There’s nothing in Heb6:4-6 about “prohibiting repentance after apostasy”. First, against the Calvinistic understanding, prove they really were saved — “photizo-enlightened”, “tasters of the good word of God and the powers of the age to come”, and “metochos-PARTNERS of the Holy Spirit”. Taste, is “geuomai” — exactly the same as Heb2:9, “Jesus tasted death”. They really tasted/participated, metochos partakers/partners really were saved (Heb3:1, Heb3:14, Heb8:12).

Second, it really says “and FALLING away” — aorist active participle; “falling”, maybe “having-fallen”. They are unrepentant, no way they’re saved. Adunatos impossible/unable/powerless/impotent to restore them to repentance…

King James “SEEING AS”
NIV “BECAUSE”
NASB “SINCE”
NASB footnote, “WHILE!”

…they crucify Christ to themselves anew. It’s the same as in Heb10:26-29, if we continue sinning willfully there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins but a terrifying expectation of judgment and fury of fire that consumes the adversaries. Only their willful sin prevents them from repentance and keeps them in apostasy; but remember, the whole letter of Hebrews is warning “don’t be deceived by sin to unsalvation”. 2:1-3, 3:8, 3:12-14, 4:1, 4:11, 6:7-8, 6:12-13, 10:26-29, 10:35, 10:36, 12:7-9, 12:15, 12:25, and 13:9.

Why would verses 5:11-6:6 be any different?

This is probably a question that cannot be answered here; because if anyone here acknowledges what I perceive, that “milk-eaters/carnal/fleshly cannot be saved”, that goes against the Council of Bishops. But to take “carnal” as saved violates Rm8:12-13, “gar-for/because” in Heb6:4, and other verses.

Is this resolvable?

Hi!

…the problem is “vocabulary.”

Those who are weak in the Faith (who return/rely on liquid nourishment) are not apostate. They are wayward Believers (take a couple who refuse to reconcile themselves to the Church through the Sacraments–yet, they attend daily/weekly to the Mass and even “permit” their children to be inducted into the Faith–they are not apostate of the Faith). These can be converted through preaching and engagement and prayers.

The apostate are those who once embraced the Faith, accepting the tenets of the Faith–even if they did not fully comprehend or intellectually agreed with the Faith. Yet, at one point they determined that Jesus or everything of the Faith is not where they should place their Belief (these sometimes become the most active and aggressive atheists/agnostics–seeking even to raze Christianity (the Church) from the globe). These cannot be compelled through acts of conversion, prayer, engagement to return to the Faith.

You fail to make this distinction so you have a problem understanding the Bishops. The Church never Teaches that there are some “never saved” fold/members of the Body. The Church never Teaches that man is predestined to hell. The Church never Teaches that sinners cannot convert. The Church never Teaches that those who engage in apostasy are damned–the Church Teaches that those who remain in their sin and those who remain in their rejection of God cannot be Saved.

Why? Because these must undo their rejection of God and their unrighteousness and, on their own, reclaim God.

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

Heh heh! :hug3:
If you put my understanding on a scale whose endpoints are “Calvinism”, and “Catholicism”, I’m a whole lot closer to Catholicism!

I like to put “petition” at the last; so many who claim the title “Christian”, treat God as a cosmic Santa. James says (ch4) “You have not because you do not ask; or you ask and do not receive because you ask wrongly to spend it on your passions.”

These facets of prayer accomplish specific things. “Praise/worship” — God inhabits praise, when we praise and worship Him He inhabits us.

Thanksgiving – gratitude is the basis of humility, and Scripture says “unless we are humbled as a child we will never see the kingdom of God”. Unthankfulness is arguably the root of sin. What man covets another woman when he is thankful for what he has? What woman craves material possessions when she is thankful and content?

Repentance is a true abhorrence of sin, even if only because it offends He whom we love. We are confident that He is faithful and just to forgive us and to cleanse us from ALL unrighteousness, as we diligently pursue His presence and His power to overcome sin the NEXT time. We also recognize that when God forgives us, He FORGETS – in His eyes it is as if we never sinned. (Heb8:12)

Fellowship — the veil tore for each of US; we enter within the veil with reverence and love, and delight in His presence, as He truly delights in OURS.

Intercession – the opposite of “Christian”, is selfish; it’s impossible to be selfish when we’re praying our hearts out for friends, AND for enemies.

Waiting on God – stilling our mouths and our thoughts, we listen for His still small voice; it is a deeper intimacy, a respect for His person.

Petition – when we embody the other facets, then we fulfill Psalm37:4 — “Delight yourself in the Lord, and He will give you the desires of your heart.” If we delight in Him, then His heart is ours, and our desires are His. Then we will NOT “ask wrongly to spend it on our passions”!

And that’s why I can’t accept “carnal” (which is dull-ears, walking in sin and unrepentant), as “saved”! If we walk in the flesh (sarx, are carnal) we must die! Rom8:12!

This is why I have an “all-or-nothing” view; Christ is in us (and we therefore have godly fruits — 2Pet1:5-11), or He is not in us and we are castaway/disqualified (2Cor13:5).

What does anyone here think I’m missing?

Hi!

…again, I think it goes to understanding (vocabulary).

…if we embrace what your final statement says then there are very but quite very few Christians in the world, at any given time (not to mention that we must go against Scriptures that attest that we would call God a liar if we say that we have no sin in us or that we do not sin).

…the Christian world would be Padre Pio, St. Francis, St. Clare, St. Teresa… these were all examples of men and women who gave themselves fully to God… yet, even then we must make the slate clean since they routinely employed personal Confessors–so you are kind-of on your own (don’t know any Protestants personally) with those who hold such strong abilities as never sinning—ever, not even in their sleep!

…or you come to Catholic understanding that Believers Walk in the Light but are able and do sin.

…that Believers who sin lose God’s Grace.

…that Believers who lose God’s Grace must employ the Sacrament of Reconciliation/Confession in order to Confess their sin/s, and be Absolved of their unrighteousness in order to regain God’s Grace:

6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth. 7 But if we walk in the light, as he also is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. 8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just, to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all iniquity. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

1 My little children, these things I write to you, that you may not sin. But if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the just: 2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.

12 I write unto you, little children, because your sins are forgiven you for his name’s sake.

(1 St. John 1:6-10; 2:1-2, 12)
It is St. Paul’s depiction of the Battle:

14 For we know that the law is spiritual; but I am carnal, sold under sin. 15 For that which I work, I understand not. For I do not that good which I will; but the evil which I hate, that I do…

17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

18 For I know that there dwelleth not in me, that is to say, in my flesh, that which is good. For to will, is present with me; but to accomplish that which is good, I find not…

23 But I see another law in my members, fighting against the law of my mind, and captivating me in the law of sin, that is in my members. 24 Unhappy man that I am, who shall deliver me from the body of this death? 25 The grace of God, by Jesus Christ our Lord. Therefore, I myself, with the mind serve the law of God; but with the flesh, the law of sin.

(Romans 7:14-25)
Hope this helps!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

Are you sure of that? Salvation is “Christ-in-you” – he who has Jesus has eternal life, he who does not have Jesus does not have life. In the Protestant world often is heard the expression, “backslidden-but-saved”. As you and I have agreed, true (saved!) faith will produce good fruit. Look at what Peter said:

“Now for this very reason also, applying all diligence, in your faith supply moral excellence, and in your moral excellence, knowledge,
and in your knowledge, self-control, and in your self-control, perseverance, and in your perseverance, godliness,
and in your godliness, brotherly kindness, and in your brotherly kindness, love.
For if these qualities are yours and are increasing, they render you neither useless nor unfruitful in the true knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
For he who lacks these qualities is blind or short-sighted, having forgotten his purification from his former sins.
Therefore, brethren, be all the more diligent to make His calling and choosing of you steadfast; for as long as you practice these things, you will never stumble;
for in this way the entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ will be abundantly supplied to you.” 2Pet1:5-11

“Stumble” in verse 10 is “ptaio become-wretched”. The godly qualities are not optional; it is a bad translation that says, “add to your faith” — no, supply IN your faith, because he who lacks them is IMPURE. It is also a bad translation that says, “Make certain ABOUT His calling and election” – no, it says “Make His calling and election of you BEBAIOS-STEADFAST!”

Only by being diligent in Christ, measuring our position by our fruits, only then are the “eisodos-gates of Eternity provided to us”.

The man in verse 9 – he is “backslidden”, isn’t he? “In-Christ” is doing good works; “backslidden” is not. What kind of “backslidden” is it that is not really in Christ, not really doing good works, but still saved?

Why not? Those who DO His will, are His followers; those who do not do His will, He sends away (“Depart from Me, you who practice wickedness”). Matt7:21-23.

Where could a “fleshly-but-saved-person”, exist in this?

So — the sluggish can be SAVED?
“And we desire that each one of you show the same diligence [fn]so as to realize the full assurance of hope until the end,
so that you will not be sluggish, but imitators of those who through faith and patience inherit the promises.” Heb6:11-12

**I don’t see the difference! Heb5:12 “they are dull of hearing”; how does that not connect with Matt13:13-16, as discussed above?

I’m still struggling to understand a position, “not-fullness-of-faith but SAVED”!

What qualities from Peter’s text of 2:1:5-11 are neglectable?**
Anyone who has “fallen-from-salvation” can come back, before death. James says it in 5:19-20. Paul in Rom11:18-23 (“those who were cut off, can be grafted in again, if they do not continue in their unbelief”).
In Rom11:18-23 — where would the “carnals”, live?

You and I agreed several times that "salvation is not mere belief, only the belief that produces good fruit". What belief is it that is content drinking milk, immature, not-fully-walking-in-Christ?

How are they “still saved”?

I quoted that passage above, 30:11-20. Tied to Rom10:6-10 as it is, it’s a complete and total refutation of Reformed Theology. They have no defense…

Hi!

…I’ve highlighted several excerpts in your post…

…the blue highlight seems to contradict the black highlight, and it is exactly what I have stated in my previous post; so it seems that I cannot help you reconcile the Catholic Understanding with the Protestant’s

It goes to “vocabulary.”

Believers are able to sin and they do so.

It seems that Protestant understanding either dismiss sin/unrighteousness as an ability for “Believers” to engage without any consequences (which brings us to OSAS) or they mean to say that “Believers” cannot sin (which by necessity rejects the Word of God that Teaches that to Hold such Belief makes God into a Liar). Yet, then there’s the “fallen” that *can *come back–this, by default, contradicts your previous assertion that a Believer cannot sin/backslide.

Clearly we are treading on an impasse since we are arguing both for and against issues which, from my Catholic perspective, are none issues and, from your Protestant perspective, have different meaning/value.

I’m afraid that we are hitting that circle thing!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[Gadgeteer]

Hi!

…as I began reading through this post the following passage popped into my mind:
44 But I say to you, Love your enemies… (St. Matthew 5:44-48)
Is God a confused God? Could God Teach us to do something that’s totally superfluous? Is God a sadist?

What purpose would there be to show a good example?

As Paul says in Eph2:3, “WE were children of wrath (Hell!) the same as the rest”. Our enemies – those who seek to harm or destroy us — we long not for their punishment (for that was OUR punishment too!) — but we long for them to become BROTHERS IN CHRIST, with us! And so the secret of our faith is exposed; we embody the same love as Jesus had, dying horribly and staring at His murderers, and forgiving them. Longing that they repent and join Him.

What purpose would there be to pray for those who are unrighteous if they are locked in their predestined damnation?

It’s so blatantly obvious, it must take considerable effort to deny it and cling to doctrines like Reformed Theology!

God wants our relationship with Him to be reflected in our relationship with all of mankind:

“forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us!”

…yeah, that’s way great for the Believers… but is that all there is?

Let’s look deeper into this relationship that God compels us to engage:

…those who Believe and Walk in the Light are granted God’s Grace… yet those who are unrighteous are far from God’s Mercy…

Not really; the only “far distance”, is their own fleeing from His perfect love and righteousness. Rm11:32 says God has mercy on all men. His mercy is very near to all men from God’s perspective, it’s only far for “those who do evil (and) turn away from the light lest their evil deeds be exposed”…

In His Wisdom God wants His children to pray for those who are far from His Mercy so that through our intercession they may receive some of the Blessings that are showered upon the Believers!

This clearly debunks all “not saved” scenarios!

We pray, that they may be saved; for “ALL have sinned and fall short of God’s glory; there are none righteous, not one” — that includes us. We are no different from our enemies, except for His precious grace which we received and treasure.

(2Tim1:12-14!)

God’s Justice, Mercy and Love is made Accessible to all!

All without exception; unlimited atonement. “Limited Atonement” (Reformed Theology) languishes in vain to paint God as “creating some soil to BE wicked and perish”, which Jesus already addressed in Matt12:25-31.

 

[Gadgeteer]

Hi!

…the problem is “vocabulary.”

Those who are weak in the Faith (who return/rely on liquid nourishment) are not apostate. They are wayward Believers (take a couple who refuse to reconcile themselves to the Church through the Sacraments–yet, they attend daily/weekly to the Mass and even “permit” their children to be inducted into the Faith–they are not apostate of the Faith).

Help me to understand how one can be a “wayward believer”? I see things in black and white; as Jesus said, “he who is not with Me is against Me; he who does not gather, scatters.” It’s not a matter of “church”, or “sacraments”, or “Mass” — the essence of salvation being “Christ-in-us”, do they fulfill 1Jn5:12 (“he who has Jesus has eternal life, he who does not have Jesus does not have eternal life”) — or not?

These can be converted through preaching and engagement and prayers.

Converted from what, into what? Are they indwelt by Jesus and the Spirit before they are converted, or only after?

The conspicuous wording of Paul (who is presumed to have written Hebrews – though perhaps Luke) — yes he’s trying to turn them towards maturity — how is he not using “apostasy” as the state of those who do not turn from immaturity?

“You need diligence SO THAT when you have done the will of God you may receive the promise”. How is that not saying exactly the same as “you should be mature, but you still need milk”?

Heb5:11 — “you have become dull of hearing”. The milk-eaters! Same as Isaiah6:10 and Matt13:15, they will not turn to God that He may heal them!

How is a “dull-of-hearing” person, not the same “dull-of-hearing” spoken of in Is6:10 and Matt13:15?

The apostate are those who once embraced the Faith, accepting the tenets of the Faith–even if they did not fully comprehend or intellectually agreed with the Faith. Yet, at one point they determined that Jesus or everything of the Faith is not where they should place their Belief (these sometimes become the most active and aggressive atheists/agnostics–seeking even to raze Christianity (the Church) from the globe). These cannot be compelled through acts of conversion, prayer, engagement to return to the Faith.

All that Heb6:4-6 says, is that their willful sin disempowers them (adunatos!) from repenting. New American Standard footnotes “anastauroō” (which is in present active participle), with WHILE.

It is adunatos-powerless to restore them to repentance, crucifying-as-they-do-to-themselves Jesus. It’s exactly the same as Heb10:26-29, “if we continue sinning willfully …Jesus’ sacrifice no longer covers us!”

You fail to make this distinction so you have a problem understanding the Bishops. The Church never Teaches that there are some “never saved” fold/members of the Body. The Church never Teaches that man is predestined to hell. The Church never Teaches that sinners cannot convert. The Church never Teaches that those who engage in apostasy are damned–the Church Teaches that those who remain in their sin and those who remain in their rejection of God cannot be Saved.

No, what I am misunderstanding is how the Bishops separate the “milk-eaters” in 5:11-14, from the unrepentants in 6:4-6.

• You should be mature meat-eaters, but you still need milk.
• Therefore let us press on to maturity, not spending all our time preaching repentance.
• Because those who were truly saved but now walk in sin, won’t want to repent
• You are a tilled field; you can produce EITHER fruit & be blessed, or thorns and be cursed.
• You need diligence SO THAT when you’ve done God’s will you may receive the promise.

It reads to me as a continuous, consistent warning! What do you think I’m missing?

Why? Because these must undo their rejection of God and their unrighteousness and, on their own, reclaim God.

Exactly – they must repent!

I look forward to your thoughts, and thank you again for your patience with me.

 

[Gadgeteer]

Hi!

…again, I think it goes to understanding (vocabulary).
Gadget:

This is why I have an “all-or-nothing” view; Christ is in us (and we therefore have godly fruits — 2Pet1:5-11), or He is not in us and we are castaway/disqualified (2Cor13:5).

…if we embrace what your final statement says then there are very but quite very few Christians in the world, at any given time (not to mention that we must go against Scriptures that attest that we would call God a liar if we say that we have no sin in us or that we do not sin).

The real tragedy is that there ARE “very few true Christians”. Yes we sin (1Jn1:8) — but we do not walk in sin. There are only two “real-estates” in the Universe – in Christ, or in sin.

Do you know the word, “Compartmentalism”? How did Nazi monsters do heinous things to people, especially women and children, and then go home to their wives and children? They COMPARTMENTALIZED. At the end of the day they would hang up their “monster-suit”, and put on their “warm nurturing family suit”; then the next morning they would trade the family-suit for the monster suit! Many of those who consider themselves “Christian”, try to do the same thing! It is these Jesus warns of in Matt7:21-23 — thinking themselves “saved”, they rush to Jesus’ presence when He returns but He casts them AWAY! “I do not know you! Depart from Me, you who practice wickedness!” It’s the same in Rev3:14-22; how can one not know if he is poor, or blind, or miserable, or wretched, or naked? But they DO NOT KNOW!

…the Christian world would be Padre Pio, St. Francis, St. Clare, St. Teresa… these were all examples of men and women who gave themselves fully to God… yet, even then we must make the slate clean since they routinely employed personal Confessors–so you are kind-of on your own (don’t know any Protestants personally) with those who hold such strong abilities as never sinning—ever, not even in their sleep!

It’s not a question of “never-sinning”; but rather, WHEN we sin our hearts truly belong to Jesus, and the broken fellowship compels us back to His presence grief-stricken and begging Him to forgive us and to empower us against sinning again! 1Jn1:9!

Note well that CONTINUED sin (unrepentance!) is what is condemned in Heb6:4-6, and 10:26-29 (and many others!)…

…or you come to Catholic understanding that Believers Walk in the Light but are able and do sin.

That’s what I’ve been saying! We WALK in the Light and do NOT walk in sin!

…they were walking in sin/flesh in Heb5:11-14, in Heb6:4-6, and Heb10:26-29! Weren’t they!

…that Believers who sin lose God’s Grace.

…that Believers who lose God’s Grace must employ the Sacrament of Reconciliation/Confession in order to Confess their sin/s, and be Absolved of their unrighteousness in order to regain God’s Grace:

You and I are in agreement on that. It really doesn’t matter if you perceive “confess to a priest”, I think you agree with me that ultimately the confession is to God.

It is St. Paul’s depiction of the Battle:
(Romans 7:14-25)

Romans 7 is not where we’re supposed to live! That chapter cannot be read alone; it is a sandwich — beginning with chapter 6, teaching what it means to be “born-again” (begotten from above). We EITHER are alive to sin and dead to God, OR alive to God and dead to sin.

Then chapter 7 exposes a problem — the old sinful nature is dead, but not gone; and the new begotten spiritual nature is at WAR with the old nature. It is in despair that Paul cries, “Wretched man that I am, who will FREE me from this war within my members?!”

Chapter 8 is where we’re supposed to live, it is the solution to what war — if we walk after the flesh to fulfill its lusts we must die. But if by the Spirit’s power we put to death the flesh, we live!

Carnal — Greek “sarx”, fleshly; milk-eaters! Carnal in 1Cor3:1! How do we get to take Paul’s “MUST DIE”, and just stamp it with “not-really” (just as RT’s often do)?

Hope this helps!

I’m just confused; you and I agreed that passages like 1Cor6:9-11, Eph5:5-6, Gal5:19-21, and 1Jn3:5-10 all oppose “Antinomianism”. But then I see lines of thought like, “Therefore, I myself, with the mind serve the law of God; but with the flesh, the law of sin.” Rm7:25 — the thought that we can be PHYSICALLY sinning but spiritually SAVED!

No, 1Cor6:9-11, Eph5:5-6, Gal5:19-21, 1Jn3 – they are not negotiable! It’s the same with Peter’s warning in 2:1:5-11! He who has FORGOTTEN former purification from sins, who has ptaio-become-wretched, shall NOT enter into the gates of eternity!

Is there any way that Rom7:25 (“I serve God in my mind, but serve sin in my flesh”), is allowed to violate Rom6;1 (“shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? Never! How shall we who have DIED to sin still live in it?”)?

Where is the “no-man’s-land” that permits Antinomianism, belonging to Jesus and indwelt by Him, but still being lukewarm/milk-eaters/carnal/walking-in-sin?

Again – thank you for the privilege of being able to see through your eyes and understand your perception.

 

[Gadgeteer]

Hi!

…I’ve highlighted several excerpts in your post…

…the blue highlight seems to contradict the black highlight, and it is exactly what I have stated in my previous post; so it seems that I cannot help you reconcile the Catholic Understanding with the Protestant’s

It goes to “vocabulary.”

Believers are able to sin and they do so.I agree completely. Rather, you and I agree with Scriptures like 1Jn1:8-10.

It seems that Protestant understanding either dismiss sin/unrighteousness as an ability for “Believers” to engage without any consequences (which brings us to OSAS) or they mean to say that “Believers” cannot sin (which by necessity rejects the Word of God that Teaches that to Hold such Belief makes God into a Liar).

 

[jcrichton]

As Paul says in Eph2:3, “WE were children of wrath (Hell!) the same as the rest”. Our enemies – those who seek to harm or destroy us — we long not for their punishment (for that was OUR punishment too!) — but we long for them to become BROTHERS IN CHRIST, with us! And so the secret of our faith is exposed; we embody the same love as Jesus had, dying horribly and staring at His murderers, and forgiving them. Longing that they repent and join Him.

It’s so blatantly obvious, it must take considerable effort to deny it and cling to doctrines like Reformed Theology!

Not really; the only “far distance”, is their own fleeing from His perfect love and righteousness. Rm11:32 says God has mercy on all men. His mercy is very near to all men from God’s perspective, it’s only far for “those who do evil (and) turn away from the light lest their evil deeds be exposed”…

We pray, that they may be saved; for “ALL have sinned and fall short of God’s glory; there are none righteous, not one” — that includes us. We are no different from our enemies, except for His precious grace which we received and treasure.

(2Tim1:12-14!)

All without exception; unlimited atonement. “Limited Atonement” (Reformed Theology) languishes in vain to paint God as “creating some soil to BE wicked and perish”, which Jesus already addressed in Matt12:25-31.

Hi!

…I don’t think I was successful in conveying what I wanted to convey… the reason why we are compelled to pray for non-Believers is not for our benefit (gain more Faith) but to intercede on their behalf since God does not hear the prayer of sinners!

It is through our intercession (which includes living example and prayers) that God’s Mercy and Grace can work on the world, Romans 5 and:

14 How then shall they call on him, in whom they have not believed? Or how shall they believe him, of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear, without a preacher? 15 And how shall they preach unless they be sent, as it is written: How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, of them that bring glad tidings of good things!

(Romans 10:14-15)
…it takes a lot more to preaching than knowledge and transmission of the Word:

2 Saying: The scribes and the Pharisees have sitten on the chair of Moses. 3 All things therefore whatsoever they shall say to you, observe and do: but according to their works do ye not; for they say, and do not.

(St. Matthew 23:2-3)
Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

Help me to understand how one can be a “wayward believer”? I see things in black and white; as Jesus said, “he who is not with Me is against Me; he who does not gather, scatters.” It’s not a matter of “church”, or “sacraments”, or “Mass” — the essence of salvation being “Christ-in-us”, do they fulfill 1Jn5:12 (“he who has Jesus has eternal life, he who does not have Jesus does not have eternal life”) — or not?

Converted from what, into what? Are they indwelt by Jesus and the Spirit before they are converted, or only after?

The conspicuous wording of Paul (who is presumed to have written Hebrews – though perhaps Luke) — yes he’s trying to turn them towards maturity — how is he not using “apostasy” as the state of those who do not turn from immaturity?

“You need diligence SO THAT when you have done the will of God you may receive the promise”. How is that not saying exactly the same as “you should be mature, but you still need milk”?

Heb5:11 — “you have become dull of hearing”. The milk-eaters! Same as Isaiah6:10 and Matt13:15, they will not turn to God that He may heal them!

How is a “dull-of-hearing” person, not the same “dull-of-hearing” spoken of in Is6:10 and Matt13:15?

Hi!

…let’s take it from a different angle…

What is Jesus telling us?:

4 Yet I hold this against you: You have forsaken the love you had at first…6 But you have this in your favor: You hate the practices of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate.

(Apocalypse [Revelation] 2:4-6)
Is Jesus saying that these are apostates of the Faith or is He saying that they hold fast to some of the tenets of the Faith but are failing in others?

What would be the most important thing, would it not be the Love of God?

Yet, the Love of God cannot be exercised in blind fury and in the absence of Mercy and Justice!

They are called to repentance; they are not told that they are in apostasy and cannot regain God’s Grace!

All that Heb6:4-6 says, is that their willful sin disempowers them (adunatos!) from repenting. New American Standard footnotes “anastauroō” (which is in present active participle), with WHILE.

It is adunatos-powerless to restore them to repentance, crucifying-as-they-do-to-themselves Jesus

. It’s exactly the same as Heb10:26-29, “if we continue sinning willfully …Jesus’ sacrifice no longer covers us!”
The apostate are not comparable to those who Rejected Jesus… Jesus states that even if they were to speak against the Son of man, it would be forgiven of them… what would not be forgiven of them is rejection of the Holy Spirit (ascribing evil to the Holy Spirit):

31 Therefore I say to you: Every sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven men, but the blasphemy of the Spirit shall not be forgiven… but he that shall speak against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, nor in the world to come.

(St. Matthew 12:31-32)
We Know that Jesus, the Son, is God; we Know that the Father is God; we Know that the Holy Spirit is God… so why would it matter if one would blaspheme against one and not the other Persons of God?

Well, the Holy Spirit is the means of God’s Revelation; by rejecting/blaspheming the Holy Spirit man is rejecting God’s Word–God’s Revelation!

Apostasy rejects God’s Revelation! No man can be converted from his/her apostasy of God!:

16…There is a sin unto death: for that I say not that any man ask. 17 All iniquity is sin. And there is a sin unto death.

(1 St. John 5:16-17)

No, what I am misunderstanding is how the Bishops separate the “milk-eaters” in 5:11-14, from the unrepentants in 6:4-6.

• You should be mature meat-eaters, but you still need milk.
• Therefore let us press on to maturity, not spending all our time preaching repentance.
• Because those who were truly saved but now walk in sin, won’t want to repent
• You are a tilled field; you can produce EITHER fruit & be blessed, or thorns and be cursed.
• You need diligence SO THAT when you’ve done God’s will you may receive the promise.

It reads to me as a continuous, consistent warning! What do you think I’m missing?

Let’s consider a person who purports to being a devout Catholic… from birth to death the Sacraments are engaged in his/her family… there’s only one thing… he/she is part of a crime group–their livelihood and their lifestyle embrace all sorts of unrighteousness… by default that person lives in apostasy.

…then there’s a Catholic who does not engage an unrighteous life; yet often enough tempted and yields to temptation… why would you think that both are examples of apostasy?

…a person living a minimalist Faith can still reconcile him/herself to active Fellowship with God… the weak in the Faith are not agents of apostasy.

Those who are apostate of the Faith reject God; they are not confused or weak. they are stubborn in their resolve to reject God–that’s what makes the difference.

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

The real tragedy is that there ARE “very few true Christians”. Yes we sin (1Jn1:8) — but we do not walk in sin. There are only two “real-estates” in the Universe – in Christ, or in sin.

Do you know the word, “Compartmentalism”? How did Nazi monsters do heinous things to people, especially women and children, and then go home to their wives and children? They COMPARTMENTALIZED. At the end of the day they would hang up their “monster-suit”, and put on their “warm nurturing family suit”; then the next morning they would trade the family-suit for the monster suit! Many of those who consider themselves “Christian”, try to do the same thing! It is these Jesus warns of in Matt7:21-23 — thinking themselves “saved”, they rush to Jesus’ presence when He returns but He casts them AWAY! “I do not know you! Depart from Me, you who practice wickedness!” It’s the same in Rev3:14-22; how can one not know if he is poor, or blind, or miserable, or wretched, or naked? But they DO NOT KNOW!

It’s not a question of “never-sinning”; but rather, WHEN we sin our hearts truly belong to Jesus, and the broken fellowship compels us back to His presence grief-stricken and begging Him to forgive us and to empower us against sinning again! 1Jn1:9!

Note well that CONTINUED sin (unrepentance!) is what is condemned in Heb6:4-6, and 10:26-29 (and many others!)…

That’s what I’ve been saying! We WALK in the Light and do NOT walk in sin!

…they were walking in sin/flesh in Heb5:11-14, in Heb6:4-6, and Heb10:26-29! Weren’t they!

You and I are in agreement on that. It really doesn’t matter if you perceive “confess to a priest”, I think you agree with me that ultimately the confession is to God.

Romans 7 is not where we’re supposed to live! That chapter cannot be read alone; it is a sandwich — beginning with chapter 6, teaching what it means to be “born-again” (begotten from above). We EITHER are alive to sin and dead to God, OR alive to God and dead to sin.

Then chapter 7 exposes a problem — the old sinful nature is dead, but not gone; and the new begotten spiritual nature is at WAR with the old nature. It is in despair that Paul cries, “Wretched man that I am, who will FREE me from this war within my members?!”

Chapter 8 is where we’re supposed to live, it is the solution to what war — if we walk after the flesh to fulfill its lusts we must die. But if by the Spirit’s power we put to death the flesh, we live!

Carnal — Greek “sarx”, fleshly; milk-eaters! Carnal in 1Cor3:1! How do we get to take Paul’s “MUST DIE”, and just stamp it with “not-really” (just as RT’s often do)?

I’m just confused; you and I agreed that passages like 1Cor6:9-11, Eph5:5-6, Gal5:19-21, and 1Jn3:5-10 all oppose “Antinomianism”. But then I see lines of thought like, “Therefore, I myself, with the mind serve the law of God; but with the flesh, the law of sin.” Rm7:25 — the thought that we can be PHYSICALLY sinning but spiritually SAVED!

No, 1Cor6:9-11, Eph5:5-6, Gal5:19-21, 1Jn3 – they are not negotiable! It’s the same with Peter’s warning in 2:1:5-11! He who has FORGOTTEN former purification from sins, who has ptaio-become-wretched, shall NOT enter into the gates of eternity!

Is there any way that Rom7:25 (“I serve God in my mind, but serve sin in my flesh”), is allowed to violate Rom6;1 (“shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? Never! How shall we who have DIED to sin still live in it?”)?

Where is the “no-man’s-land” that permits Antinomianism, belonging to Jesus and indwelt by Him, but still being lukewarm/milk-eaters/carnal/walking-in-sin?

Again – thank you for the privilege of being able to see through your eyes and understand your perception.

Hi!

…let’s see… (it is difficult since we are speaking from different perspectives); we agree that Believers cannot engage sin (as living in sin); we also agree that Believers are susceptible to temptation and can and do fall pray to it; we also agree that the Sacrament of Reconciliation must be engaged if Believers yield to temptation; we also agree that Believers are under the same obligations as all of mankind (St. James 1:14-15).

We also reject Antinomianism since it simply makes Christ an escape goat and enables man to embrace the fallacy of enjoying an unrighteous existence.

So our differences comes to our perception of the term “carnal.”

If we look at St. James 1:13, we might resolve this… though we are Called to Live in the Spirit, because we are weak/carnal we fail to keep our resolve to Live in the Spirit.

The Spirit (the Holy Spirit) cannot engender or produce temptation; He cannot compel us to sin nor would He test or trick us into temptation/sin.

Yet, Believers do sin.

This is the Battle St. Paul has depicted in several passages. We hold that we are God’s children; yet, we are not perfect/holy but being perfected/made holy (Romans 5).

So while I hold the flesh (the carnal man) accountable for my iniquities and my vulnerability to temptation, you reject the term as the abode of sin.

Though we may be at diverse grounds we hold the same cognizance that sin is death and that the Believer is Commanded to Walk in the Light (reject sin).

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

I agree completely. Rather, you and I agree with Scriptures like 1Jn1:8-10.

I think I’ve explained it better in the posts just above; no we are NOT sinless, but we definitely “sin less”. That is, in our weakness we do sin, and it breaks fellowship with God. This compels true believers back to His presence in repentance, imploring Him to forgive us and to empower us not to sin the next time.

There is a world of difference between “sin”, and “backslide”! To backslide is to keep sinning.

There are a lot of Protestants who say things like “backslidden-but-saved” — meaning, we can walk in sin but still expect to waltz through Heaven’s gates. That is NOT what the entire letter of Hebrews teaches, nor Peter in 2:1:5-11, nor most of what Paul wrote, nor the others!

I was talking with a friend a few weeks ago, he insisted that “milk-eaters are very much saved, just immature”; so I rewrote that part of my book (Antinomianism), talking about how milk-eaters, by definition, are carnal/fleshly and subject to verses like Rom8:13! How can “apothnēskō”, not fully intend spiritual death?

As you and I have discussed things, we have found we’re much more parallel than not; I’m confident in these last posts we will find we’re not that far apart in understanding.

Hi!

…ok… backslide means to remain in sin not to just yield to temptation and sin… I always thought that the term referred to simply yielding to temptation and committing sin; as you’ve explained it, yet it holds a deeper meaning since it is actually used to mean those who persevere in their unrighteousness (rejecting the Faith).

I must concur with you that a Christian (Believer) cannot be a “saved backslider.”

…our understanding differs on the issue of “Saved.” The Catholic perspective is that Salvation is a done deal, in Christ; yet, we are not “Saved” (as in OSAS) but that we are in a sojourn which includes all levels of maturity in the Faith. We also believe that none is so “holy” that cannot lose Salvation through personal rejection of God or personal determination to remain in a sinful existence (unrepentant from sin/unrighteousness).

This then is also the reason why I cannot fully agree with you on the term “carnal:”

1 And I, brethren, could not speak to you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal. As unto little ones in Christ. 2 I gave you milk to drink, not meat; for you were not able as yet. But neither indeed are you now able; for you are yet carnal. 3 For, whereas there is among you envying and contention, are you not carnal, and walk according to man?

(1 Corinthians 3:1-3)
…St. Paul’s warning seems to demonstrate that there are those who are weak/children in the Faith and while he does state that they walk according to man, the temperament does not seem to chastise them as apostate since the comparison is not being ready, as yet, to receive solid/spiritual admonishment.

Conversely, apostate have already been there and done that… they are actively engaged in the rejection of the Faith and not just simply weak/child-like Believers.

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[Gadgeteer]

Hi!

…I don’t think I was successful in conveying what I wanted to convey… the reason why we are compelled to pray for non-Believers is not for our benefit (gain more Faith) but to intercede on their behalf since God does not hear the prayer of sinners!

He hears them if they repent and ask forgiveness. Meanwhile, as I attempted to convey, we pray for their salvation; because — “but for His grace, there go we too!”

It is through our intercession (which includes living example and prayers) that God’s Mercy and Grace can work on the world, Romans 5 and:

…it takes a lot more to preaching than knowledge and transmission of the Word:

Yes. And sometimes we pray with great irony; not so much “God change them into believers”. But sometimes, "God — change US, into whatever You need to break their hearts and reach them with Your grace!"