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zerinus
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I have a testimony of the Holy Ghost that the Book of Mormon is true. Now you can harp on about occult symbols, inverted pentagrams, becoming gods, and old Joe Smith until you drop dead.
zerinus
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zerinus
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Erich
Guest
From Problems with the Book of Mormon:I have a testimony of the Holy Ghost that the Book of Mormon is true. Now you can harp on about occult symbols, inverted pentagrams, becoming gods, and old Joe Smith until you drop dead.
The Book of Mormon itself suffers the same fate (i.e. no historical or archaeological indication of any kind) when it comes to its own historical support. In a word, it hasn’t got any.
The Book of Mormon describes a vast pre-Columbian culture that supposedly existed for centuries in North and South America. It goes into amazingly specific detail describing the civilizations erected by the “Nephites” and “Lamanites,” who were Jews that fled Palestine in three installments, built massive cities in the New World, farmed the land, produced works of art, and fought large-scale wars which culminated in the utter destruction of the Nephites in A.D. 421. The Latter-Day Saints revere the Book of Mormon as the divinely-inspired record of those people and of Christ’s appearance to them shortly after his crucifixion in Jerusalem.
The awkward part for the Mormon church is the total lack of historical and archaeological evidence to support the Book of Mormon. For example, after the cataclysmic last battle fought between the Nephites and Lamanites, there was no one left to clean up the mess. Hundreds of thousands of men and beasts allegedly perished in that battle, and the ground was strewn with weapons and armor.
Keep in mind that A.D. 421 is just yesterday in archaeological terms. It should be easy to locate and retrieve copious evidence of such a battle, and there hasn’t been enough time for the weapons and armor to turn to dust. The Bible tells of similar battles that have been documented by archaeology, battles which took place long before A.D. 421.
The embarrassing truth—embarrassing for Mormons, that is—is that no scientist, Mormon or otherwise, has been able to find anything to substantiate that such a great battle took place.
…
The Book of Mormon fails on three main counts. First, it utterly lacks historical or archaeological support, and there is an overwhelming body of empirical evidence that refutes it. Second, the Book of Mormon contains none of the key Mormon doctrines. This is important to note because the Latter-Day Saints make such a ballyhoo about it containing the “fullness of the everlasting gospel.” (It would be more accurate to say it contains almost none of their “everlasting gospel” at all.) Third, the Book of Mormon abounds in textual errors, factual errors, and outright plagiarisms from other works.
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Allweather
Guest
And yet, the symbols are there upon the Mormon temples. One wonders why. That was the subject of the OP, wasn’t it?I have a testimony of the Holy Ghost that the Book of Mormon is true. Now you can harp on about occult symbols, inverted pentagrams, becoming gods, and old Joe Smith until you drop dead.
zerinus
Personally, I don’t attach too much significance to these symbols. My now-ex-Mormon fiance and I have looked them over at some length, and though they send chills up our spines, I’ve advised her not to put too much emphasis upon them. After all, it isn’t as if the people who put them there were very enlightened about occultism. Maybe they just liked the way they looked, thought them decorative. But one thing is for sure: Joseph Smith was pretty knowledgable about occultism. His family practiced folk magic for many years prior to the alleged finding of the BoM golden plates.
Could there be a connection? I don’t know. I’m waiting for our expert Zerinus Team to do some ‘splainin’.
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PaulDupre
Guest
You may have to wait until tomorrow, so Z will have a chance to pose the question to his seminary teacher…And yet, the symbols are there upon the Mormon temples. One wonders why. That was the subject of the OP, wasn’t it?
Could there be a connection? I don’t know. I’m waiting for our expert Zerinus Team to do some ‘splainin’.
God bless him,
Paul
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justinmyrtr
Guest
is this the Mormon creed?You are focusing on the wrong thing. The thing that you need to focus on is that the LDS Church is true. It is led by the Lord, by revelation, by real prophets and Apostles today, as it was in the early days. The Book of Mormon is true. It is a revelation from the Lord; and a book of scripture like the Bible. The early Christian church did apostatize, and God has now restored His true Church on earth as prophesied in the Bible. Joseph Smith was a great prophet, and an instrument in the hand of the Lord through whom that restoration took place. These are the things that you need to focus on—not on spooky ghosts!
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justinmyrtr
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Nan_S
Guest
And to think you suggested that I was starting to write too much.You are quoting the scripture out of context, not understanding it correctly. When considered in its proper context, it has a different meaning than the one you have assigned to it. This is the full context:
Jeremiah 17:
5 Thus saith the Lord; Cursed be the man that trusteth in man, and maketh flesh his arm, and whose heart departeth from the Lord.
6 For he shall be like the heath in the desert, and shall not see when good cometh; but shall inhabit the parched places in the wilderness, in a salt land and not inhabited.
7 Blessed is the man that trusteth in the Lord, and whose hope the Lord is.
8 For he shall be as a tree planted by the waters, and that spreadeth out her roots by the river, and shall not see when heat cometh, but her leaf shall be green; and shall not be careful in the year of drought, neither shall cease from yielding fruit.
9 The heart {that is to say, the heart of the wicked man, as discussed above, not of the righteous man} is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?
To sum it up, it is the heart of the evil and the wicked, those whose hearts "depart from the Lord," that is wicked and deceitful, and as a parched ground, because the Spirit of God has departed from it, and it is incapable of receiving the inspiration of heaven. By contrast, the heart of the righteous is full of light and the inspiration of heaven, as a "watered garden" (Isa. 58: 11; Jer. 31:12); and is not deceitful, but can discern between truth and falsehood, right and wrong.
zerinus
Continued . . . /
Take another look at what the Lord says through Jeremiah: He who trusts in a man (Joseph Smith) is cursed and dwells in an uninhabited salt land!!! Where did Brigham Young lead the Mormons after Joseph Smith was shot to death near Nauvoo? Great Salt Lake, Utah. Really, the irony of this prophecy is just chilling.
17:5-6 Thus saith the Lord; Cursed be the man that trusteth in man, and maketh flesh his arm, and whose heart departeth from the Lord. For he shall be like the heath in the desert, and shall not see when good cometh; but shall inhabit the parched places in the wilderness, in a salt land and not inhabited.
Jeremiah condemns polygamy too, and condemns prophesying in the name of a strange version of God:
Jer 23:10-14 For the land is full of adulterers; because of the curse the land mourns, and the pastures of the wilderness are dried up. Their course is evil, and their might is not right. “Both prophet and priest are ungodly; even in my house I have found their wickedness, says the LORD. Therefore their way shall be to them like slippery paths in the darkness, into which they shall be driven and fall; for I will bring evil upon them in the year of their punishment, says the LORD. In the prophets of Samaria I saw an unsavory thing: they prophesied by Baal and led my people Israel astray. But in the prophets of Jerusalem I have seen a horrible thing: they commit adultery and walk in lies; they strengthen the hands of evildoers, so that no one turns from his wickedness; all of them have become like Sodom to me, and its inhabitants like Gomorrah.”
As for me, just as Jeremiah warned us, I place no trust in the prophecies of men like Joseph Smith and his successors who say “I had a dream!” I will place my trust in the Lord Jesus Christ whose teachings were accurately conveyed by His eyewitnesses, His true apostles, and in their writings which have been carefully recorded and preserved by the Holy Catholic Church.
Nan
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patrick457
Guest
blessings123,
Probably the reason why Mormons do not use Crosses is perhaps the same reason as that of the JWs, namely, the Cross is something ‘shameful’ and something that should npt be talked about. They claim that they do so because the Cross is a symbol of a dead Jesus, and they claim to preach not about a dead Jesus, but about a Risen Christ.
…The only thing I could say here is that we will not have Easter Sunday without Good Friday.
Probably the reason why Mormons do not use Crosses is perhaps the same reason as that of the JWs, namely, the Cross is something ‘shameful’ and something that should npt be talked about. They claim that they do so because the Cross is a symbol of a dead Jesus, and they claim to preach not about a dead Jesus, but about a Risen Christ.
…The only thing I could say here is that we will not have Easter Sunday without Good Friday.
But far be it from me to glory except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by which the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world. (Gal. 6:14)
For the word of the cross is folly to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.
For it is written, “I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and the cleverness of the clever I will thwart.”
Where is the wise man? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world?
For since, in the wisdom of God, the world did not know God through wisdom, it pleased God through the folly of what we preach to save those who believe.
**For Jews demand signs and Greeks seek wisdom,
but we preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and folly to Gentiles, but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. **
For the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men. (1 Corinthians 1: 18-25)
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zerinus
Guest
Yes, they went there in order to flee from persecution from the likes of you (or those you support). But guess what, with the help of the Lord they made “the desert to blossom as the rose” (Isaiah 35:1-2). Have you ever been to Utah and see what a beautiful and pleasant place it is now? Why don’t you go there and have a look? It will make a nice holiday for you.And to think you suggested that I was starting to write too much.
Take another look at what the Lord says through Jeremiah: He who trusts in a man (Joseph Smith) is cursed and dwells in an uninhabited salt land!!! Where did Brigham Young lead the Mormons after Joseph Smith was shot to death near Nauvoo? Great Salt Lake, Utah. Really, the irony of this prophecy is just chilling.
That is right. Cursed is the man that refuses to believe unless they see signs. And “no sign shall be given it except the sign of Jonah” (Matt 12:39).17:5-6 Thus saith the Lord; Cursed be the man that trusteth in man, and maketh flesh his arm, and whose heart departeth from the Lord. For he shall be like the heath in the desert, and shall not see when good cometh; but shall inhabit the parched places in the wilderness, in a salt land and not inhabited.
If polygamy is adultery, then all the ancient prophets and patriarchs were adulteress, and Jeremiah must be condemning them. Let me assure you that he wouldn’t. “I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed” (Genesis 12:3). That is what the Lord told the polygamist Abraham. I don’t think Jeremiah would want to bring on himself the curse, even if you do.Jeremiah condemns polygamy too, and condemns prophesying in the name of a strange version of God:
If you want to reject prophets, then you must reject ninety percent of the Bible (in fact all of it). Jesus was a prophet, and pleased to call Himself such (Matt 13:57; 21:11; Luke 7:16; 13:33; 24:19; John 9:17).Jer 23:10-14 For the land is full of adulterers; because of the curse the land mourns, and the pastures of the wilderness are dried up. Their course is evil, and their might is not right. “Both prophet and priest are ungodly; even in my house I have found their wickedness, says the LORD. Therefore their way shall be to them like slippery paths in the darkness, into which they shall be driven and fall; for I will bring evil upon them in the year of their punishment, says the LORD. In the prophets of Samaria I saw an unsavory thing: they prophesied by Baal and led my people Israel astray. But in the prophets of Jerusalem I have seen a horrible thing: they commit adultery and walk in lies; they strengthen the hands of evildoers, so that no one turns from his wickedness; all of them have become like Sodom to me, and its inhabitants like Gomorrah.”
If you really believed in Jeremiah you would also believe in Joseph Smith, because they were both sent by the same God, and spoke by the same Spirit. They don’t say “I had a dream”. They speak the word of God with power and authority from Him.As for me, just as Jeremiah warned us, I place no trust in the prophecies of men like Joseph Smith and his successors who say “I had a dream!” I will place my trust in the Lord Jesus Christ whose teachings were accurately conveyed by His eyewitnesses, His true apostles, and in their writings which have been carefully recorded and preserved by the Holy Catholic Church.
zerinus
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blessings123
Guest
What persecution? Being a polygamist? Besides I’ve read Joe Smith thought or was “told” that all mormons should be gathered together in one place. That’s why they moved. I guess it sounds nicer to say oh, the poor mormons, so persecuted for their faith. Whatever.Yes, they went there in order to flee from persecution from the likes of you (or those you support). But guess what, with the help of the Lord they made “the desert to blossom as the rose” (Isaiah 35:1-2). Have you ever been to Utah and see what a beautiful and pleasant place it is now? Why don’t you go there and have a look? It will make a nice holiday for you.
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love4mary
Guest
The Father The Son and the Holy Spirit. I may have overlooked this from the other posts,But I keep reading that the Mormons believe in Jesus the Christ but I don’t think I read anything stating a believe in the TRINITY.
A Christian is defined as one who believes in the Trinity, or am I wrong on that?
A Christian is defined as one who believes in the Trinity, or am I wrong on that?
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zerinus
Guest
That depends on how you define the Trinity. LDS believe in the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost.The Father The Son and the Holy Spirit. I may have overlooked this from the other posts,But I keep reading that the Mormons believe in Jesus the Christ but I don’t think I read anything stating a believe in the TRINITY.
A Christian is defined as one who believes in the Trinity, or am I wrong on that?
zerinus
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Karin
Guest
Do the LDS view them as three seperate and distinct things?That depends on how you define the Trinity. LDS believe in the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost.
zerinus
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blessings123
Guest
Mormons believe the Father is a god,made of flesh and bones, Jesus is a god and spirit brother of satan, the Holy Spirt is another god and You my friend can be a god too. Not exactly christian. here is an excellent explaination of the Trinity I read recently:The Father The Son and the Holy Spirit. I may have overlooked this from the other posts,But I keep reading that the Mormons believe in Jesus the Christ but I don’t think I read anything stating a believe in the TRINITY.
A Christian is defined as one who believes in the Trinity, or am I wrong on that?
In speaking of the “Persons” in God, we do not use the term in exactly the same way we use it when speaking of people. We use it only for lack of a word to show our meaning better.
In speaking of a man as a “Person”, we mean that he is an intelligent being, acting individually for himself. The acts he performs belong to him and he is responsible for them- he himself , not his tongue, nor his mind, nor his whole body even, but the whole of himself.
We speak of three “Persons” in God because to each belongs something we cannot attribute to anyother. His distint origin. From all eternity the Father begets the Son, and the son proceeds from the Father. From all eternity the Father and Son breathe forth the Holy Ghost, and he proceeds from them, as from one source.
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Allweather
Guest
I’ve been to SLC a couple of times. Three years ago we rode the motorcycle up there in the spring and spent a lovely day touring the Temple grounds. In those days I was not practicing my religion at all, except that I occasionally spoke in my prayer-mind to Jesus. My then-girlfriend, a Mormon, was obviously very intent that I would have some sort of spiritual catharsis stemming from the visit to the Temple, but I had no such thing. In fact, despite the beauty of the surroundings, I found the Temple a rather shabby and pretentious affair. At the end of the tour, the guides take everyone into a cavernous room that has a large statue of Jesus in it. There is a space motif painted upon the walls and ceiling, as if to suggest Christ in space. Everyone sits down and a tape recording is played. The little missionary tourgirls get all misty-eyed. I found it pathetic. The Jesus statue looks plastic, and the space painting on the walls looks like it was done by children. Matter of fact, I’ve noticed this thing about Mormon “art,” that it is pretentious, yet poorly done. All the while I was reminded of the cheap JW artwork found in their pamphlets… gaudy, comic-book quality.Yes, they went there in order to flee from persecution from the likes of you (or those you support). But guess what, with the help of the Lord they made “the desert to blossom as the rose” (Isaiah 35:1-2). Have you ever been to Utah and see what a beautiful and pleasant place it is now? Why don’t you go there and have a look? It will make a nice holiday for you. zerinus
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Allweather
Guest
Ahhh… once again Zerinus springs to the defense of his beloved Mormon polygamy. He reads the OT and gathers from it the bogus lesson that polygamy is approved by God. BUZZZZ! WRONG! If Zerinus and his fellow adulterers were actually tuned-in to the Holy Ghost as they THINK they are, they’d get the correct take on what the OT is teaching. However, in order to do that, they’d have to stop being hardheaded, rebellious, arrogant interpreters of Scripture, submit to the authority that Jesus established upon the Apostles, and learn from that Church. One of the first steps to true faith is the acceptance of the fact that Zerinus isn’t smart enough to interpret Scripture. Zerinus has made his shortcomings in this area abundantly obvious to everyone, except himself. Humility, submission, silence, obedience… these are the hallmarks of a true believer. Zerinus has none of these qualities. Yet.If polygamy is adultery, then all the ancient prophets and patriarchs were adulteress, and Jeremiah must be condemning them. Let me assure you that he wouldn’t. “I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed” (Genesis 12:3). That is what the Lord told the polygamist Abraham. I don’t think Jeremiah would want to bring on himself the curse, even if you do.zerinus
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Allweather
Guest
Except when they don’t. Didn’t Zerinus recently disavow some significant “teachings” of the beloved “prophet?”If you really believed in Jeremiah you would also believe in Joseph Smith, because they were both sent by the same God, and spoke by the same Spirit. They don’t say “I had a dream”. They speak the word of God with power and authority from Him.zerinus
Yesterday afternoon, me and the fiance sat and watched an hourlong program on BYU Channel (DirectTV) that had a table panel of BYU “scholars” from the BYU Religious History Dept discussing the part of the D&C that deals with the lost 116 pages of manuscript that Martin Harris took. It was the fiance, the former Mormon, who noticed that, in the background of the room, as the three cameras scanned and panned the four “scholars,” were three statues of Joseph Smith, but not a single image of Jesus. God bless her, she is really starting to notice that Mormonism is not of Christ, but is the Cult of Joseph Smith, and nothing more.
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Allweather
Guest
Always with the Mormon definitions. Mormons, like all cultists, must have their own definitions for the important words that describe Christian faith. Mormons do not believe in the Christian Trinity. That is why they cannot possibly be Christians. If they believed in the Christian Trinity, Zerinus wouldn’t have to hide his mouth and say things like, “That depends on how you define the Trinity.” Just as the devil in the garden told Eve, “You certainly will not die”, the cultists twist the words of truth into lies that lead unto death.That depends on how you define the Trinity. LDS believe in the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost.zerinus
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zerinus
Guest
Yes they do.Do the LDS view them as three seperate and distinct things?
zerinus
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zerinus
Guest
When they put up a statute, you complain about the quality of the art. When they don’t, you complain that they don’t. Hypocrisy shines through and through.Except when they don’t. Didn’t Zerinus recently disavow some significant “teachings” of the beloved “prophet?”
Yesterday afternoon, me and the fiance sat and watched an hourlong program on BYU Channel (DirectTV) that had a table panel of BYU “scholars” from the BYU Religious History Dept discussing the part of the D&C that deals with the lost 116 pages of manuscript that Martin Harris took. It was the fiance, the former Mormon, who noticed that, in the background of the room, as the three cameras scanned and panned the four “scholars,” were three statues of Joseph Smith, but not a single image of Jesus. God bless her, she is really starting to notice that Mormonism is not of Christ, but is the Cult of Joseph Smith, and nothing more.
zerinus
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