Ohio Voters Reject Public-Union Curbs

[stevegravy]

Try visiting Somalia to get a feel for what wealth generation looks like without government.

One last comment on Somalia… what you really see in Somalia is what a society degenerates to when there is no longer any respect for several key western ideas that have propped up **this **civilization. It is the concepts of personal rights that have developed from the ancient Greeks through the Magna Carta to Locke’s Treaty on Government. These are rights to life, private property and individual liberty.

You see I think you are mistaken on Somalia. There is a rule of many governments, every gang of thugs with an AK 47 has leaders that make the enforce rules for his territory. It is too bad the only ones allowed any rights are the guys with the guns. Pretty mid-evil actually just no castles.

 

[ringil]

One last comment on Somalia… what you really see in Somalia is what a society degenerates to when there is no longer any respect for several key western ideas that have propped up **this **civilization. It is the concepts of personal rights that have developed from the ancient Greeks through the Magna Carta to Locke’s Treaty on Government. These are rights to life, private property and individual liberty.

You see I think you are mistaken on Somalia. There is a rule of many governments, every gang of thugs with an AK 47 has leaders that make the enforce rules for his territory. It is too bad the only ones allowed any rights are the guys with the guns. Pretty mid-evil actually just no castles.

In other words if only the world would learn from Western European culture and ideology people would be better off.

Talk about ethnocentrism.

 

[RACJ]

You could vote yourself a big raise - just get elected governor or get onto a governor’s team.

I also beg to differ that the government creates no wealth. Wealth is not just dollars and cents. Wealth is education of a young generation. Wealth is health of the workforce and their spouses/children. Wealth is the services necessary for business to be able to operate and make a profit. Wealth is security for those businesses and their workers. Wealth is the legal system which allows for an orderly society. Wealth is the systems of licensing and regulation that protect society from the whims of individuals. Wealth is the social services, integral to the moral health and stability of any society. Wealth is so much more than profit margins, it doesn’t even begin to be funny. The government DOES create wealth, mainly by maintaining the structures and institutions that make it possible for individuals and businesses to earn money. Try visiting Somalia to get a feel for what wealth generation looks like without government.

 Just b/c a good education has value does not make it *wealth*. Without people producing goods and services that others are willing to pay for, the government sector has *nothing*. Admittedly, education is a bit nebulous as to where it fits in an economic  scheme, but I can tell you that my education in the '60's  was far superior to that received by kids today. And no one was losing his home with b/c of exorbitant property taxes then, either. All the billions sent  to Columbus or Washington does not educate one child. In fact, with all the PC propaganda and regulations, I submit that it has become twice as difficult for a good teacher to impart knowledge today. 
 Ask the next kid you see to name a few historical facts, such as the era of the Civil War, WWI & II, some of the people responsible for writing the Constitution, ...you can think of dozens more. Unless you find a home-schooled child, they will probably act like a deer in the headlights. It's no wonder today that more and more Americans are no longer horrified by the mention of socialism, which brings devastation wherever it's tried. Their slogans sound great, and the candidates smile warmly. :cool: Rob
 P.S. Your comment about enriching myself by getting elected or becoming an apparatchik is a bit smarmy, IMO.

 

[Monte_RCMS]

Try visiting Greece to get a feel for all the wealth generated by government.

At the CIA site ( cia.gov ) we can call up lots of stuff for review. For instance here’s the description of the political parties and pressure groups of Greece…

Political Parties
Anticapitalist Left Cooperation for the Overthrow or ANTARSYA [Petros KONSTANTINOU]; Coalition of the Radical Left or SYRIZA [Alexis TSIPRAS]; Communist Party of Greece or KKE [Aleka PAPARIGA]; Democratic Left [Fotis KOUVELIS]; Democratic Alliance or DISY [Theodora BAKOGIANNI]; Ecologist Greens [Nikos CHRYSOGELOS]; Golden Dawn [Nikolaos MICHALOLIAKOS]; New Democracy or ND [Antonis SAMARAS]; Panhellenic Socialist Movement or PASOK [Georgios PAPANDREOU]; Popular Orthodox Rally or LAOS [Georgios KARATZAFERIS]

Pressure Groups

Civil Servants Confederation or ADEDY [Spyros PAPASPYROS]; Federation of Greek Industries or SEV [Dimitris DASKALOPOULOS]; General Confederation of Greek Workers or GSEE [Ioannis PANAGOPOULOS]

Gosh, I can’t think of a single reason they’re having fiscal problems!

 

[seekerz]

Try visiting Greece to get a feel for all the wealth generated by government.

I’d take Greece over Somalia with my eyes blindfolded!

 

[seekerz]

Just b/c a good education has value does not make it wealth. Without people producing goods and services that others are willing to pay for, the government sector has nothing. Admittedly, education is a bit nebulous as to where it fits in an economic scheme, but I can tell you that my education in the '60’s was far superior to that received by kids today. And no one was losing his home with b/c of exorbitant property taxes then, either. All the billions sent to Columbus or Washington does not educate one child. In fact, with all the PC propaganda and regulations, I submit that it has become twice as difficult for a good teacher to impart knowledge today.
Ask the next kid you see to name a few historical facts, such as the era of the Civil War, WWI & II, some of the people responsible for writing the Constitution, …you can think of dozens more. Unless you find a home-schooled child, they will probably act like a deer in the headlights. It’s no wonder today that more and more Americans are no longer horrified by the mention of socialism, which brings devastation wherever it’s tried. Their slogans sound great, and the candidates smile warmly. Rob
P.S. Your comment about enriching myself by getting elected or becoming an apparatchik is a bit smarmy, IMO.

My comment about giving oneself a raise is spot on wrt to Ohio.

Education is wealth, unless it is so bad that the recipient is left absolutely unequipped to engage in earning activities like getting a job or starting a business.

BTW, last time I checked, the kid in my house (never homeschooled) was able to reel off details not only of the wars you mention, but of all the main events of US history, much of the main aspects of world history and extensive knowledge of ancient civilizations. So I don’t know which kids you hang out with…

 

[Scott_Lafrance]

My comment about giving oneself a raise is spot on wrt to Ohio.

Education is wealth, unless it is so bad that the recipient is left absolutely unequipped to engage in earning activities like getting a job or starting a business.

Why does the government have to provide it? The market is the best source of information.

 

[seekerz]

Why does the government have to provide it? The market is the best source of information.

No reason at all. The assertion was that government does not create wealth. My response was to show how they do, in all the main aspects of modern life. If we think they shouldn’t, that’s what ballot boxes are for. Meantime, until that scenario is changed - if ever - we need to pay for the services we receive.

 

[RACJ]

My comment about giving oneself a raise is spot on wrt to Ohio.

Education is wealth, unless it is so bad that the recipient is left absolutely unequipped to engage in earning activities like getting a job or starting a business.

BTW, last time I checked, the kid in my house (never homeschooled) was able to reel off details not only of the wars you mention, but of all the main events of US history, much of the main aspects of world history and extensive knowledge of ancient civilizations. So I don’t know which kids you hang out with…

 I'm not surprised that YOUR kid is properly educated, coming from a good home. I've worked with hundreds of young people who graduated from the Scranton area schools, and almost without exception, they are clueless. It is the height of arrogance for federal and state officials to think that THEY care more about children than each individual locality does. 
 The push for mergers in the 60's and 70's has been an unmitigated disaster, except for teachers, who can't be fired if they have tenure, no matter how awful they might be, and whose salaries have increased many times beyond that of the folks who pay them. Cordially, Rob

 

[seekerz]

I’m not surprised that YOUR kid is properly educated, coming from a good home. I’ve worked with hundreds of young people who graduated from the Scranton area schools, and almost without exception, they are clueless. It is the height of arrogance for federal and state officials to think that THEY care more about children than each individual locality does.
The push for mergers in the 60’s and 70’s has been an unmitigated disaster, except for teachers, who can’t be fired if they have tenure, no matter how awful they might be, and whose salaries have increased many times beyond that of the folks who pay them. Cordially, Rob

So we have different experiences. I respect that. I do agree that education is substandard in many places. There are multiple reasons for that, the structure of the education system and the quality of teachers being only two of those. More than anything I believe that education is in its present state because parents do not have enough (name removed by moderator)ut into their kids’ learning (either due to apathy or lack of time). Which is why this insistence (on either side of the education debate) that it is a bad system, bad schools or bad teachers which are failing our kids, is IMHO, dead wrong.

 

[shockerfan]

No reason at all. The assertion was that government does not create wealth. My response was to show how they do, in all the main aspects of modern life. If we think they shouldn’t, that’s what ballot boxes are for. Meantime, until that scenario is changed - if ever - we need to pay for the services we receive.

You’re talking different definitions

In the context originally posed, from an economic definition, the government does not create wealth. In order for the government to spend a dollar, they must first take that dollar from someone else. That single act causes a decrease in wealth. Also, In order for the government to actually spend one dollar, they must tax more than one dollar, since they do nothing cost efficiently.

 

[seekerz]

You’re talking different definitions
In order for the government to spend a dollar, they must first take that dollar from someone else. That single act causes a decrease in wealth…

That’s the part that I don’t get, you make it sound like they take that dollar (steal it actually) and it’s lost in space or something. No, that dollar goes into providing and maintaining the apparatus that makes wealth creation possible. So that dollar does not cause a net decrease in wealth because the taxpayers get it back in the form of services which are essential to their wealth generation activities.

Efficiency, I agree is an issue. However, even the most efficient organization I know, for example, a good charitable organization, does not spend a dollar for every dollar they receive. There are always operational costs no matter how small.

 

[shockerfan]

That’s the part that I don’t get, you make it sound like they take that dollar (steal it actually) and it’s lost in space or something. No, that dollar goes into providing and maintaining the apparatus that makes wealth creation possible. So that dollar does not cause a net decrease in wealth because the taxpayers get it back in the form of services which are essential to their wealth generation activities.

Efficiency, I agree is an issue. However, even the most efficient organization I know, for example, a good charitable organization, does not spend a dollar for every dollar they receive. There are always operational costs no matter how small.

Let me explain:

If I have a dollar, and the government takes it via taxes, then I lost a dollar. Its gone. I have negative wealth.

If the government gives that dollar to someone else, then yes, they get to spend it, and you could say they now have that dollar of wealth.

But also consider the government being inefficient means they actually had to take $1.40 from me to give $1.00 to someone else, with the other 40 cents needed to cover government costs. (the forty cents is an example…not sure of the actual gov’t cost).

I would also argue that while there are some government services necessary for the private sector to create wealth, there are a plethora that do not. In fact, government, especially under the Obama administration, has put policies in place that make it more costly to create wealth in our country. [by increase healthcare costs, energy costs, labor costs, litigation costs, etc].

I will agree that even the most efficient charitable organization has some operational costs to account for, however, the government is the most inefficient entity. If you disagree, then just name for me one significant cost effective / efficient government program. Most major government programs are insolvent, heading towards insolvency, stricken with fraud, not needed, duplicated, or just plain expensive. Part of this has to do with politicians not caring those programs are that way because they are looking for votes and don’t want to irritate any constituencies.

All of this equals “the government, from an economic perspective, does not create wealth”

 

[seekerz]

Let me explain:

If I have a dollar, and the government takes it via taxes, then I lost a dollar. Its gone. I have negative wealth.

If the government gives that dollar to someone else, then yes, they get to spend it, and you could say they now have that dollar of wealth.

But also consider the government being inefficient means they actually had to take $1.40 from me to give $1.00 to someone else, with the other 40 cents needed to cover government costs. (the forty cents is an example…not sure of the actual gov’t cost).

I would also argue that while there are some government services necessary for the private sector to create wealth, there are a plethora that do not. In fact, government, especially under the Obama administration, has put policies in place that make it more costly to create wealth in our country. [by increase healthcare costs, energy costs, labor costs, litigation costs, etc].

I will agree that even the most efficient charitable organization has some operational costs to account for, however, the government is the most inefficient entity. If you disagree, then just name for me one significant cost effective / efficient government program. Most major government programs are insolvent, heading towards insolvency, stricken with fraud, not needed, duplicated, or just plain expensive. Part of this has to do with politicians not caring those programs are that way because they are looking for votes and don’t want to irritate any constituencies.

All of this equals “the government, from an economic perspective, does not create wealth”

The government (and I thought we were talking state here) is not taking the dollar from you to give to someone else when they pay a teacher or a fireman or a policeman or when they provide health care coverage to a poor child. They are pooling your dollar with the next guy’s dollar to make sure that there is an educated workforce, that homes and businesses are protected from fire and crime, that parents can work instead of staying home with too-frequently-ill children. That’s what the dollars do.

On a federal level, waste and fraud notwithstanding, Medicare is both a boon to the elderly and an incentive to young workers and it makes health coverage accessible where otherwise it might not be affordable. I am not aware of a private insurance company which reimburses provider at a lower rate than Medicare, so yes it does generate wealth by allowing the elderly to access health care and still be able to eat, drink and maintain a dwelling (i.e. it allows them money left over to patronize businesses and keep the economy going). Leaving them to the mercies of current commercial insurance rates would ensure that many could not both access health care and cater to those basic needs.

 

[CMatt25]

The voters have spoken……YADA, YADA, YADA ……reality check to all useless nuts i.e. buckeyes

So are you calling the Buckeye state’s voters useless nuts?

 

[seekerz]

So are you calling the Buckeye state’s voters useless nuts?

Wonder if that includes the 37%?

 

[CMatt25]

The taxpayers had a right to vote in this matter too; remember, most union members in Ohio are taxpayers as well. Plain and simple, the union membership came out and exercised their constitutional rights and the results were what they were.

Good points Gamewell. But do you think perhaps a voter or two or more who are not union members came out to vote no as well?

 

[gamewell45]

Good points Gamewell. But do you think perhaps a voter or two or more who are not union members came out to vote no as well?

I think many people from all walks of life came out and exercised their constitutional rights both pro and con, union and non-union regarding this issue. I know that the union members had a lot riding on this and as such many of them who might not have voted, decided to come out and vote if for nothing else just to help to repeal the law.

Either way its the mechanism that we use in this country and the voters have spoken; so be it.

 

[Scott_Lafrance]

I think many people from all walks of life came out and exercised their constitutional rights both pro and con, union and non-union regarding this issue. I know that the union members had a lot riding on this and as such many of them who might not have voted, decided to come out and vote if for nothing else just to help to repeal the law.

Either way its the mechanism that we use in this country and the voters have spoken; so be it.

Public service employees should not be allowed to unionize. They serve at the pleasure of the taxpayer.

 

[oldcelt]

Public service employees should not be allowed to unionize. They serve at the pleasure of the taxpayer.

I realize that that is only an opinion, but…never mind.

John